OOTS #1172 - The Discussion Thread

[Resileaf]

But more damming, this vote won't end the world. If they votes yes, the Dvalin would leave, vote in favour of Heimdall's proposal, and then the world would end. Most dwarves would then go to Hel, because none of them were performing an honorable action that caused their deaths at the time. Because, as we must remember, it's not living honorably, it's dying honorably that counts. "Sitting in a council room waiting for the inevitable destruction of the world" is not honorable. Best the council members could hope to do in that scenario would be to rush out and try to die before the end - possibly honorably dueling each other and as many local dwarves as they can challenge before the end.

Not quite, Rich has stated that a dwarven politician assassinated for their work would not go to Hel even if they didn't die in combat.

[hroþila]

The explanation of the problem there is terrible. The gods at least know the backstory and can judge the threat. The dwarves have no sense of what’s happening or how imminent it is or anything. Even aside from the vampire problem.

That's an inherent and inevitable problem with Dvalin's shtick, the simple fact of the matter is that he has a much fuller and broader understanding of the situation than the clan elders. He can't even tell them about the Snarl, after all. Plus he probably tries to avoid saying too much because he doesn't want to bias the council.

I suspect that's going to be part of the lesson regarding the dwarves as a whole: it's good to want to listen and do things by consensus, and it's good to be honourable, but you don't need to be so inflexible that it does more harm, nor so zealous that you use honour as a weapon against things you disapprove of and which need not be considered dishonourable (like Hilgya's general attitude towards tradition).

[Anansiil]

Don't the dwarves need to die honorably in battle, rather than just honorably?

I eagerly await the next strip :D

*edit
Malak (may he rest in peace) asked that question, and Durkon answered it!
So, the council might be saved but all others would likely go to Hel.
Tough break...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not quite, Rich has stated that a dwarven politician assassinated for their work would not go to Hel even if they didn't die in combat.

But they aren't being assassinated for their political actions. The world is being blown up, not because they voted for it but because Himdall and Dvalin voted for it, some time after they recommended it to Dvalin. There are just too many jumps of activity and time.

Dying of exposure while delivering supplies: honorable, because they are delivering supplies. Stabbed in the back by political opponents' hired ninjas while in office due to your political activities (a la Shojo or Hinjo), honorable. Voting to tell Dvalin to end the world... as I say, might count as honorable for the council, but it very well might not, because the activity is over the moment Dvalin goes back. The council is not ongoing in their efforts to end the world.

This is mostly academical, though, because as someone else pointed out, 12 souls aren't going to make a difference either way.

Don't the dwarves need to die honorably in battle, rather than just honorably?

No, not at all. This has a wonderful example of other ways to die honorably.

Grey Wolf

[gatemansgc]

My bet is on returning hammer + collapsible ceiling OR Dispel magic from outside of the chamber as we have a nice sky window for it now. The barier prevents casting from inside of the barier if i understand the wording right.

ooh that's a creative one. actually, whynotboth.jpg

[Ruck]

And then you consider that Durkon has a weapon he can throw into the ceiling and have return directly to him, without relying on that pesky gravity...

Yay!

We don't know that-- and, in fact, given how much chipping at rocks the subterranean Dwarves must have to do, I could actually believe there's no blanket ban on demolition.

Boo!

Spoiler

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1) It's a returning hammer.

2) If he hit it "just like yer Pa did", then the ceiling is about to collapse on them.

And even if not #2, see #1. The hammer still has to come back to Durkon, and I'm guessing it's going to take the most direct route rather than courteously guide itself through the initial hole.

I just noticed: Durkon collapsing the ancient voting place would also be a nice take on the destruction part of his prophecy.

Indeed. We can add it to the list with Odin's Meeting Hal, and the outer chamber of this place. The Historical Preservation society is going to be wanting his blood.

Grey Wolf

Thankfully, the deliberative body of the Historical Preservation Society is just as bureaucratic and as to whether to take his blood will take long enough that by the time they reach a decision, Durkon will be off at Kraagor's Gate. (Assuming they don't take so long that he's already returned home by then.)

Well I feel vindicated. I'm one of those who pointed out that destroying Dwarven property was against Dwarven Law and that if Durkon tried it, he would be petrified. {scrub the post, scrub the quote}

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[IntelectPaladin]

I'm sorry, but I feel it best to point out that the stone-crushing hammer is now returning to a stone Durkon.
This strip hit as hard as Mr. Burlew intended, which has me utterly mortified for the next strip. Let's try to hope for the best, but brace for the worst.

[Peelee]

I'm sorry, but I feel it best to point out that the stone-crushing hammer is now returning to a stone Durkon.

Thats, uh.... huh. Really hoping the handle is less stone-crushing than the head.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm sorry, but I feel it best to point out that the stone-crushing hammer is now returning to a stone Durkon.
This strip hit as hard as Mr. Burlew intended, which has me utterly mortified for the next strip. Let's try to hope for the best, but brace for the worst.

Meh, when you've been brought from the dead once, then a second time seconds later, it's no big deal to be brought back from the dead after being smashed by your own hammer while stoned the next morning. Sure, that's a third level he'd be losing, but that's a small price to pay to save the world.

Death is cheap, when you have access to Raise Dead clerics.

Grey Wolf

[Morquard]

The hammer was given to Durkon by Thor (well kinda). It's quite possibly a divine artifact.

I guess one of these two possibilities:
a) The hammer when it returns also removes paralyze effects, so Durkon will just keep throwing that hammer a few more times, and the vampires can't do anything about it now.
or
b) The point was not the hole in the ceiling but to get the hammer outside, under open sky. And now it summons a massive lightning bolt into the ceiling.

[Alex Warlorn]

The hammer hasn't come back down ...

[Eva]

What we really need now is a mirror.

[dtilque]

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[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler: Honor Through Destruction

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If the Dwarves vote for the destruction of the world despite themselves all going to Hel because of "dying without honor" in order to save the souls of other species, wouldn't that be the honorable thing and cancel out the dishonor?

That argument could and (probably) would be made.
"Curses! My plan to take over the world has been foiled by red tape!"

Even if Thor could successfully argue that it should be deemed honorable, that would only apply to the council itself, not to every other dwarf. We just saw Hel give up more souls just so she could keep focusing on the big prize. I don't think this factors into her plan, she merely wanted to ensure the vote went her way.

Don't be ridiculous. Thor could absolutely argue that the entire dwarven race died an honorable death. Whether or not that argument would be upheld depends on who was picked for the jury.

Spoiler: On Murder in a Resurrection-Heavy World

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Um, the reason why we consider murder to be so bad is because it isn't reversible.

So what would actually be interesting is if people's opinions about it didn't change when it became reversible.

The thing is, only parts of it are reversible. Being killed still (presumably) causes all the psychological trauma of attempted murder, except presumably worse because you're actually killed. Yet when resurrection is an option, people never seem to treat murder as seriously as we'd treat real attempted murder.

Note that the damages should be the full cost of a true resurrection: 25,000 GP for diamonds + 1,530 GP for spell casting. And this assumes the availability of a level 17 cleric or equivalent.

Raise dead or normal resurrection costs you 2 points of Con or a level, permanently.

This is enough that death isn't really reversible for most people as a practical matter, even if there weren't a serious shortage of level 17+ clerics doing commercial spellcasting in the OotS world.

You don't need a level 17 cleric if you have a corpse. Raise dead only takes a 9th-level cleric and 5,000 gold in diamonds, for a total of 5,450 gp. And then there's the budget option, reincarnate, which only requires a 7th-level druid and 1,000 gp in oils and stuff, for a total of 1,280 gp (with complementary return to Young Adult age category).
Sure, level/Constitution loss and possible change of race are serious, but they're hardly brick walls against resurrection if you don't have a demigod-priest and a spare diamond mine. (Most people would barely notice the mechanical loss; it would feel like catching an unusually persistent flu while in therapy for PTSD.) It all depends on what law and custom dictate.

Spoiler: Grey_Wolf is awfully chatty...

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My glass house is pretty uncomfortable this time of year. Why'd you ask?

A discussion about who deserved an apple once sparked a war. Flower arrangements that come to a vote could most definitely affect the clans. Say, if it'd mean re-decorating temples all round the dwarven lands to match. Those 30 coppers per temple aren't going to mine themselves

Grey Wolf

It sounded like you were saying something more like "What flowers should we spend that three silver per temple?"

Meh, when you've been brought from the dead once, then a second time seconds later, it's no big deal to be brought back from the dead after being smashed by your own hammer while stoned the next morning. Sure, that's a third level he'd be losing, but that's a small price to pay to save the world.

Death is cheap, when you have access to Raise Dead clerics.

You'd need resurrection to deal with being all smashed up. Also stone to flesh, FWIW.

That seems to be working on the same kind of sliding time frame that will give us fusion power and self-driving vehicles.

Grey Wolf

The estimated timeframe for self-driving vehicles is a lot less than 20 years by now. It's shrinking slower than one year per year, but still fast enough that I expect to see them on the road before too long. (Probably without recognizing they're self-driven.)
Heck, depending on where you put the cutoff between "drive itself" and "help a human drive," we might already have self-driving cars on the road. One of Uber's hit a biker because of an unfortunate alignment of programming eff-up and driver not realizing he had to do a thing.

Spoiler: Others' Random Comments

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To be fair to that guy, this plotline has already relied on the presence of stupid administrative laws and loopholes. To be fair to you, none of those were quite as stupid as "Nobody wrote a law against vandalism in general".

Huh? That's not enough information for the elders to make an informed decision.

At least they're using all the information they have available, which puts them miles above [insert politician you dislike here].

[Ruck]

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[Grey_Wolf_c]

It sounded like you were saying something more like "What flowers should we spend that three silver per temple?"

Well, it was supposed to be a joke example of something banal that'd explain why they weren't expecting to weight in on the fate of the world and every soul in it, so I hadn't really thought that far. Really, pick your own "he made us trip to the surface for this" topic and slot it in. A difference of opinion on the most appropriate flower arrangement for a major Northern Pantheon celebration was what I had mostly in mind. How that'd affect all the clans to the point Dvalin calls for a vote is left as an exercise for the reader.

The estimated timeframe for self-driving vehicles is a lot less than 20 years by now. It's shrinking slower than one year per year, but still fast enough that I expect to see them on the road before too long. (Probably without recognizing they're self-driven.)

From your mouth to the appropriate deity or fundamental shaping force of the universe's ear. But I ain't holding my breath. That they've figured out the easy bits early and fast doesn't seem to have translated into similar breakthroughs in the harder bits, and it feels like the effort has stalled for the last year or two.

Grey Wolf

[Prowl]

C-A-L-E-N-D-A-R

and that's how you spell calendar

[137beth]

Well, that's not looking good.

I'll have to remember to preorder the book when I get home.

[KorvinStarmast]

and every recipe I am googling seems to be written in some kind of undecipherable script. Or German. But I repeat myself.

When a friend of mine was learning German, he kept on saying "I'd like to buy a vowel!"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When a friend of mine was learning German, he kept on saying "I'd like to buy a vowel!"

Strangely, that wouldn't concern me as much as their seemingly critical shortage of spaces. You'd think that they'd be taxed per word or they're keyboards are missing the long key at the bottom (together with the baffling translocation of z and y).

Grey Wolf

[Snails]

The explanation of the problem there is terrible. The gods at least know the backstory and can judge the threat. The dwarves have no sense of what’s happening or how imminent it is or anything. Even aside from the vampire problem.

That, yes.

It is a terrible statement of the problem, because it does not mention the timing -- and that timing is the critical aspect of the vote at the godsmoot. If it were a question of committing to either destroying the world now or doing absolutely nothing later if/when it is clear the Snarl is about to be released and destroy the world, it is highly likely Dvalin would not even be involved in the vote.

"If it arrives" does not explain it is not actually known yet whether the Snarl will be released in the foreseeable (by human the scale of humanoid lifetimes), and there is reason to believe it is premature to destroy the world now, albeit the risk of delaying is probably greater than zero.

As stated, it is both reasonable and hilarious that some of these elders are voting Yes.

[2xMachina]

The rest of the order may now enter the room via the hole

[Hekko]

There's a line of blue runes way below the ceiling. This line seems to have zapped Durkon into stonedom so I guess it's providing the blue barrier. Just sayin'.

Also, weren't there still THREE circles of protection in place? Three rings, to be precise. We've only seen two.

[t209]

Four, Rich wants the ultimate downer ending and the world is destroyed.

I think it was invalidated with an Goblin business owner in his elderly age.
Meaning that the world did survive.

[Kantaki]

Strangely, that wouldn't concern me as much as their seemingly critical shortage of spaces. You'd think that they'd be taxed per word or they're keyboards are missing the long key at the bottom (together with the baffling translocation of z and y).

Grey Wolf

Is that supposed to be a shot against compound words?
I mean, you're putting two (or more) words together to make a new one
Of course you're writing them without spaces.
What's next? Complaints about our capitalization rules?

[Rinazina]

Sometime I'm a bit too much magic-solve-everything kind of type. But...
If the hammer is an holy relic, let's imagine Thor can give some special power in special condition...
and maybe, make the hammer coming back with mass dispel charm + transmute earth to mud....

I mean, Hel would complain, but that folder Loki has with him, which meaning can have beside showing her "Holy relics can be enhanced in certain conditions" ?

[understatement]

Nice twist. Awesome!

I want the Exarch to be the next Kubota by receiving an unceremonious end. Way too smug for his own good.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There's a line of blue runes way below the ceiling. This line seems to have zapped Durkon into stonedom so I guess it's providing the blue barrier. Just sayin'.

Also, weren't there still THREE circles of protection in place? Three rings, to be precise. We've only seen two.

The third ring of defense is the chasm and narrow bridge outside.

Grey Wolf

[Snails]

While I will give kudos to someone who predicted destroying the ceiling would be against Dwarves Law and it would matter, I would point out that we are only holding this vote at all because there are arguable big gaps in the rationality of both Dwarven traditions and magical defenses regarding the counsel.

[KorvinStarmast]

Returning hammer collapses ceiling looks likely, but another possibility is Sigdi takes out a mirror and shines that sunlight on everyone.

I am not thinking that sunlight will do anything about the domination, but it will discomfit the vampires.

I have it on very good authority that within 20 years, everyone will be speaking German. Or a German-Chinese hybrid.

We who speak English already speak a German/French/Latin/Greek/whathaveyou hybrid.

That seems to be working on the same kind of sliding time frame that will give us fusion power and self-driving vehicles.

I am far more interested in seeing fusion power than self driving vehicles.

There probably isn't a law against having mirrors in the sun in the council chamber, if only because no one would ever expect that to be a thing.

Aye.

Imagine if death could be reserved like in D&D. The legal punishment for killing someone would probably be the cost of the diamonds to raise the person and a prison sentence similar in duration to assault. With additional prison time added if the murder was done in a particularly cruel or painful way.

Or mayhem, which I think carries a higher penalty but that's just in the one country that I am familiar with.

Hammer goes out
V casts Forcecage around the table through the small hole
Hammer goes back in, causing the whole roof to collapse
The vampires die due to excess vitamin D

I like it, not sure if it will work out that way.

I mean, if a single thrown hammer could rip a hole in the ceiling,

It's not a "single thrown hammer" it's a magical/artifact/legeneary weapon made by a deity.

narrative reason: this book has a focus on Durkon and his family. I don't think the rest of the order will solve everything while he is stoned.

I'll offer five quataloos on a bet supporting this take.

That's an inherent and inevitable problem with Dvalin's shtick, the simple fact of the matter is that he has a much fuller and broader understanding of the situation than the clan elders. He can't even tell them about the Snarl, after all. Plus he probably tries to avoid saying too much because he doesn't want to bias the council.

I suspect that's going to be part of the lesson regarding the dwarves as a whole: it's good to want to listen and do things by consensus, and it's good to be honourable, but you don't need to be so inflexible that it does more harm, nor so zealous that you use honour as a weapon against things you disapprove of and which need not be considered dishonourable (like Hilgya's general attitude towards tradition).

I like your take on that, not sure what Rich is going to do with it.