The "Is this a good gestalt?" thread

[jjpickar]

I wish to learn more about making good gestalt characters but have little experience in making them so I thought I might make a thread for myself and others like me who would like to know.

Gestalt builds I'm curious about power-wise:

Marshal/Bard

Warlock/Rogue

Fighter/Druid

Hexblade/Rogue (evasion+mettle=good that much I do know)

So, are they any good?

[JackMage666]

Marshal/Bard

Good Support, not so much on their own.

Warlock/Rogue

Has some strong points (Like Invisibility as Invocation), but overall not that great. You can stack Sneak Attack and Eldritch blast, but only once without Eldritch Glaive. It's nice, but not too wonderful.

Fighter/Druid

Druid, with full BAB and alot of feats. Druids are already strong, this just boosts them a bit.

Hexblade/Rogue

It's really good for fighting casters, but that's about it. The fact it can avoid most spells thrown at him is an advantage, but he's not perfect.

The best build I've seen is Wizard/Warblade. Huge Int synergy, Huge HP, and generally good saves and such.

[DownwardSpiral]

Gestalt builds I'm curious about power-wise:

Marshal/Bard

Warlock/Rogue

Fighter/Druid

Hexblade/Rogue (evasion+mettle=good that much I do know)

Marshal/bard = major aura and bard songs? Good.

Warlock/rogue = sneak attack eldricth blasts. Good. Watch out for undead etc.

Fighter/druid = Druidzilla with extra str, power attack etc? Extreamly good. I think too good, your dm might slap you for suggesting it.

I can't really comment on the last one because I don't know a lot about hexblades.

[Dr. Weasel]

Fighter/druid = Druidzilla with extra str, power attack etc? Extreamly good. I think too good, your dm might slap you for suggesting it.

Actually, I think this is the least gain of any of them. THe others have some synergy, this is just a Druid with a slight Base Attack boost. A Druid//Psychic Warrior would have about the same number of feats and would have more nifty abilities to boot. Druid//Swordsage would also be neat.

[Fax Celestis]

Hexblade gestalts better with Spellthief. Sure, you have a smaller sneak attack pool, but you come out with a d10 HD, full BAB, ability to steal spells, double Charisma halfcasting (fullcasting if you take the Master Spellthief feat), Cha to saves, spellgrace, Mettle, and a lot of debuffing potential--particularly with the PHB-II Dark Companion alt class feature for the Hexblade.

Focus on UMD and skyrocket your Cha. You'll be a savemonkey like never before seen.

[Guy_Whozevl]

Wizard/Archivist = Game Over

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, I think this is the least gain of any of them. THe others have some synergy, this is just a Druid with a slight Base Attack boost. A Druid//Psychic Warrior would have about the same number of feats and would have more nifty abilities to boot. Druid//Swordsage would also be neat.

Druid//Monk has a lot of merit. All good saves, (Improved) Evasion, Wis to AC, Wis 9th casting, Flurry (and usable since you can Wildshape into something with Pounce), speed boost, and a host of unarmed strikes usable in any form.

On a similar token, Swordsage//Monk is decent, and Psychic Warrior//Monk is incredible.

[Reel On, Love]

I wish to learn more about making good gestalt characters but have little experience in making them so I thought I might make a thread for myself and others like me who would like to know.

Gestalt builds I'm curious about power-wise:

Marshal/Bard

No. Neither of these is a particularily great class on their own, and they don't cover each others' weaknesses or anything. Marshal is also mostly a dip class. Marshal 2/Bard gestalted with Sorceror, for example, is more potent.

Warlock/Rogue

No, no, no. Rogue has sneak attack. You'll want to sneak attack with your Eldritch Blast. You'll have a hard time doing so (invisibility goes away once you fire), and you're getting one attack a round with the blast anyway. Against sneak-attack-immune things, you're just a Warlock, in combat.

Fighter/Druid

It's okay. You get a druid with a bunch of potent combat feats. Taking Fighter to 20 here is as bad an idea as always, of course. Druid does the heavy lifting.

Hexblade/Rogue (evasion+mettle=good that much I do know)

It's okay, I guess? Hexblade doesn't really add the combat punch the rogue really needs, but the higher HP and debuffs (i.e. Dark Companion) make the rogue more viable in melee, and your Reflex and Will saves are good, with CHA to all saves vs. spells, Mettle, etc. Hexblade isn't a good class to take straight through, though.


Edit: Meh, Psychic Warrior//Monk. PsyWar//Swordsage is vastly better. Monk just makes the Psychic Warrior want to be unarmored.

[Fax Celestis]

Edit: Meh, Psychic Warrior//Monk. PsyWar//Swordsage is vastly better. Monk just makes the Psychic Warrior want to be unarmored.

The benefits I can think of from gestalting the two boil down to one thing: PsyWar allows the Monk to do things he usually otherwise couldn't, such as move and full-attack with hustle or grapple decently with expansion, as well as having strong Wis synergy. Of course, a gestalted PsyWar//Monk looks pretty much like a Monk/Fist of Zuoken, just earlier.

[Ramza00]

what books do you have access to? What level of play?

Druid 20//
Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Totemist 2/Black Blood Cultist 10/Warshaper 5

Is great. Take Frozen Wildshape (for cyro hydra form). Bind Worg Pelt to your Hands (need to use a feat, can take as soon as 6th lvl, allows a free improved trip attack with a bite attack). 12 attacks that do a trip attempt each time. After the enemy is prone, start a grapple attempt, if you succeed on your grapple you attack again with all your natural weapons due to Black Blood Cultist lvl 8.

Also you rage as a Barbarian of 11th lvl.

12 headed hydra base damage is 2d8, Improved Natural Attack 3d8, Totemist 4d8, Totem Avatar Shoulders (requires another feat, can take as soon as 12th lvl) 6d8 per attack.

[jjpickar]

Ramza00 reminded me of another question, how do prestige classes work with gestalt? By the way, couldn't you just be a wizard and polymorph into a cryohydra and cast tensor's transformation?

[martyboy74]

You're only allowed to PrC one on one side of the buld at a time.

And, yes, a wizard could polymorph into a cryohydra and cast Tranformation, but they could do that in a normal game. And why would would you do that anyways? Giving up full spellcasting is never a good idea.

[Yeygresh]

I've always wondered, Bard/Barbarian. Bardarian, as the books says.

[Jannex]

I've always wondered, Bard/Barbarian. Bardarian, as the books says.

Hm. All good saves, full BAB, d12 hit die, decent skills (though Int probably isn't a priority for the Bardbarian), useful support casting (Haste? Yes, thanks!), and bard songs that last for several rounds after you start singing (in other words, after you fly into a Rage and start tearing things apart).

Sounds pretty reasonable.

[TO_Incognito]

I like Bard/Crusader.

If your DM requires the PHII Druid variant, Barbarian/Druid is excellent.

Any two Int based spellcasters gestal extremely well together.
Beguiler/Wizard is fun.

Anything with Warhulk on one side and a full BaB class on the other.

[MaxMahem]

I like Barbarian/Scout

Some overlap in class abilities, But Skirmish+Rage+Charge is always good. Plus two good saves, full BAB, skill points, trapfinding, a very high fort save, a few bonus feats, and a d12 HD. What's not to like?

[BardicDuelist]

I like Factotum//Wizard, Factotum//Warblade, Warblade//Wizard. They all are quite SAD (I mean, you only really need decent physical stats, but a high Int is amazing). Beguiler//Factotum or Beguiler//Warblade is good as well.
Beguiler//Wizard is pretty cheezy.

[JackMage666]

Wizard/Archistist 10, Mystic Theurge/Warblade 10

I know, it advises not using things like Mystic Theurge in Gestalt, but I figured if we're goin' Cheesy........

[Dr. Weasel]

In most cases, ToB is a beautiful thing.

Also, like Fax Said, Gestalt is the chance the Monk has to really shine. It covers all the main considerations for a character (Saves are perfect, Skills/HP/and BA are all tolerable) and gives Wisdom-types some nifty passive abilities on top.

One thing to look for is a method to utilize both sides of the build. The Barbarian//Bard, for instance, usually won't have time to use both classes' skills. If you can get Song of the White Raven, Quicken Spell and Arcane Strike into the mix though, you have actions from both sides of the gestalt chipping in.

Any two Int based spellcasters gestal extremely well together.
Beguiler/Wizard is fun.

If you do this, you have to keep an eye on your HP and Saves. Try to use the Duskblade as a base for a Psion/Wizard/Beguiler, it fills most of the problems Arcane casters usually have (HP/Fort Saves) and lets you channel spells.

[TO_Incognito]

If you do this, you have to keep an eye on your HP and Saves. Try to use the Duskblade as a base for a Psion/Wizard/Beguiler, it fills most of the problems Arcane casters usually have (HP/Fort Saves) and lets you channel spells.

It does help; with just Wizard, Beguiler, and/or Archivist, you have to do something with your spells on one side to make sure you don't get one-shotted )=.

[Arbitrarity]

I like Factotum//Wizard, Factotum//Warblade, Warblade//Wizard. They all are quite SAD (I mean, you only really need decent physical stats, but a high Int is amazing). Beguiler//Factotum or Beguiler//Warblade is good as well.
Beguiler//Wizard is pretty cheezy.

Factotum wizard? Eeevil...

Cunning surge + wizard casting, really high INT, so how many fonts of inspiration?

Owww

[Turcano]

Wizard/Archistist 10, Mystic Theurge/Warblade 10

I know, it advises not using things like Mystic Theurge in Gestalt, but I figured if we're goin' Cheesy........

Anyone who lets dual-progression prestige classes will let you apply only one progression, which makes mystic theurge absolutely worthless. The only reason you would want to take one in gestalt is for the class features, which mystic theurge doesn't have.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, one could try:

Wizard 3/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 4//Wu Jen 3/Sorceror 4/Ultimate Magus 10/Anythingyoudamnwellfeellike 3.

I cast everything.

[Dhavaer]

Swordsage//Fighter? If you're human, you can have Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse and Adaptive Style from the start.

[Hzurr]

Rogue + Anything is always a good choice. The skill points/selection is amazing, sneak attack is always useful, plus things like evasion and uncanny dodge are always helpful.

Adding Rogue may not always be the most optimal build, but it's never a bad choice.

[Human Paragon 3]

Psion/Wilder is actually sweet from my experience. SO many power points and the wild surge really helps the psion cut loose with his powers. Wilder also fixes a few of the psion's weaknesses such as poor saves, BAB and HP by giving all of them a little boost.

[Jack Mann]

Illumian, of course, makes everything better in gestalt. For example, I made an illumian duskblade//archivist. It allowed me to lower my MAD by using strength for bonus spells instead of wisdom, and intelligence was useful for both classes.

[Duke of URL]

Ranger makes an interesting pairing with arcane caster classes -- high BAB, good skills, class features that work best in light or no armor, and high Fort and Reflex saves to complement the arcane caster's high Will save.

[Indon]

My personal pet 'I wish I could try this one day' gestalt build is:

Scout 3/Rogue X // Monk 1-3/Ninja X, with the feats that allow for Scout/Rogue Skirmish and Monk/Ninja unarmed strike stacking. Essentially a Rogue with a ridiculous opening shot.

It honestly isn't exploiting the power of Gestalt, which is versatility, but still... so many D6's...

[sikyon]

I was thinking wizard/druid, or wizard/monk.

Wizard/druid because natural spell let's you cast wizard spells in wildshape (crazy, I know).

Wizard/monk because wizard has the highest damage output, and monk has the best survivability so...