The Party Is Always Annoying

[CherryC]

Seriously.
I need to vent about a campaign I am in.
Right now I am in a higher level campaign and it is pretty awesome. My DM is nice (although he likes being evil to our characters) and the people I play with are fun to chillax with. However, there is something that is really pissing me off. Everyone's characters are munchkined to hell, and I am stuck being the weakest person in the party.

Here's a bit of background on the party:
We are all 14th level, but because of all the munchkinry a party of 3 can level CR 18 encounters in less than 5 rounds. There's only 2 other regular characters; a Warblade and a super ninja archer that is in more PrCs than I can count on both hands. Sometimes a super-optimized buffing bard comes in and the game gets REALLY broken.

I'm the only full caster in the party. I'm a spirit shaman and I'm focused on blasting. I think my character would have been pretty impressive in a less ludicrous campaign, but she is basically stuck as the weakest person in terms of damage. While the archer does like 100 damage per round and the other characters deal 50 or so, I am stuck dealing less than half that per round during many battles. The only thing I can do well that the rest of the party can't is heal. While I'm no expert at it, I certainly have no problem with power gaming. I've only been playing for a year while everyone else has been at it since they were in diapers, but I still do a fair share of it. but this is really bloody stupid.

I'm strongly considering leaving, but the campaign's been bleeding people and I'm the only person capable of healing. I talked to my DM and he gave me the opportunity to totally redo my character, but I REALLY like how she is right now and screwing with a lot of her stuff would mess up her background.

I mostly did this to vent, but help is nice. Also, feel free to share your rants about things in your game that really piss you off.

[....]

So...you're upset because everyone is more optomized than you?

[Townopolis]

In your situation, I'd advise taking your DM up on his offer and spending some quality time retuning your character. You want to keep your character's backstory and concept, but also want to get a boost in power, and in order to get both it looks like your going to have to build her up again, and with care. Go over her backstory and the important aspects of what makes her her. Then optimize a build as best you can around the essentials, and work what you can in with just fluff (some parts of a character need to be supported with mechanics, but others don't).

[Machete]

My first character was a spirit shaman.

The flavor is soooo gooood but the mechanics keep the class too weak. I feel for you, especially as a blaster.

[Guy_Whozevl]

Not to be rude, but being a blaster at higher levels sucks. I'm not sure what spells Spirit Shamans can cast, but if they're stuck with direct damage and healing, why did you ever be one? If they have a more diverse spell list, use the non-blasty spells, ie buffs and debuffs. Also, if your party lacks any social characters, you could have made something to fill the role.
Your situation isn't as bad as you make it out to be; just vary the spells you use and you should be find. Be creative with them too.

[Jack Mann]

This is why parties should get together beforehand to discuss their optimization levels. They should have gone a bit less powerful. By the same token, you should have optimized a bit more so that you could keep up with the. You need to meet a happy medium.

[The_Snark]

Don't do blasting spells. As a spirit shaman, you're not going to be able to keep up to heavily optimized archers/meleeists. Go for battlefield control, and buffing your already-impressive allies. Add in utility spells; as the only full caster, you're the only one who can supply scrying and divination.

Fortunately, changing your spell selection as a spirit shaman is incredibly easy.

Spells I reccomend:

Spoiler

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1st-level: Entangle. Only useful where there's undergrowth, and not great at this level, but a Reflex save pins them in place.
Useful out-of-combat spells: Pass Without Trace, Speak With Animals, Lesser Vigor.

2nd-level: Briar Web. Like Entangle, except that trying to get free or moving deals damage.
Warp Wood. A Will save, and you've just negated several archers or others using a wooden weapon. It's not useful in every fight, but it's only a second-level spell.
Useful buff spells: Bear's Endurance can be handy, especially if your DM likes letha combats. Barkskin likewise grants a good AC bonus.
Useful out-of-combat spells: Spider Climb is useful.

3rd-level: Sleet Storm can majorly hamper enemies, cutting their mobility. Unfortunately, you can't see your enemies either, so it's best used to give your party time to prepare.
Spike Growth is an area spell that hinders anyone walking through it. It can be set up in an ambush, or cast right in front of a charging enemy.
Wind Wall. Enemy archers are now all but useless.
Useful buff spells: Protection from Energy is valuable if you plan on fighting dragons or elementals.
Useful out-of-combat spells: Speak With Plants is a good way to get information in a natural environment. Embrace the Wild will prevent people from sneaking up on you for a while. The upgraded Vigor spells are good healing spells for out of combat.

4th-level: Spike Stones is a slightly upgraded Spike Growth.
Languor is a Will negates spell that will seriously screw over... well, anything. Melee combatants will be crippled, and anything lacking high Strength will be helpless in a few rounds.
Murderous Mist permanently blinds enemies in an area. Blinded foes are near-helpless.
Dispel Magic: As the only full caster, this is essential to have on hand. Use the Greater version, if you can.
Useful buff spells: Last Breath is a great spell to have on hand if party death is frequent; not losing levels is a great thing.
Mass Camouflage can help you set up an ambush with the whole party, but it might not be worth always having it on hand.
Freedom of Movement is a staple buff spell, as grappling monsters are often really tough.
Useful out-of-combat spells: Chain of Eyes and Scrying are great for spying on enemies.

5th-level: Control Winds is a great spell for influencing the battlefield. It has a huge area, and lets you shut down enemies who fly or use ranged attacks. Generally a great spell to have on hand.
Wall of Thorns is a nasty spell to surround an enemy with, especially if you can get your archer flying so that he can pepper the enemy with arrows while he tries to escape.
Baleful Polymorph: Fortitude save, or the enemy is useless. Destroy at leisure.
Useful buff spells: Death Ward is another staple buff spell at high levels, particularly if one of your party has a low Fortitude save. Stoneskin is also valuable.
Useful out-of-combat spells: Rejuvenation Cocoon is a lower-level Heal that's not as useful in combat.
Commune With Nature is a great spell for learning about the surrounding area, as long as you're in a natural area.

6th-level: Greater Dispel Magic is good if you have the spell slots for it.
Wall of Stone is a good controlling spell; you can cordon off enemies.
Miasma is potentially good; depending on how your DM interprets it, it may be a death sentence for anything you cast it on, or it might be too slow-acting to be of any use.
Enveloping Cocoon is spectacular; it lets you replace the save on some very good spells with a Reflex save, often one that enemy monsters aren't good at. Attach Baleful Polymorph or Languor.
Antilife Shell is an unbeatable defense against many types of opponent. Not all of them, though, so be careful when you pick it.
Useful out-of-combat spells: Find the Path is a very handy spell, and something nobody else in your party will be able to manage. Stone Tell is another useful divination. An occasional Spellstaff can let you keep an esoteric spell around, one which isn't often useful but which you need when you need it.

7th-level: Finger of Death is the obvious offensive choice here, but Baleful Polymorph can usually do its job just as well.
Heal is a must, normally.
Sunbeam has a nice endurance factor; you can use it multiple times with a single spell. The damage is weak, but it blinds opponents, and a blind opponent is almost always beaten.
Useful buff spells: Brilliant Aura will help out your allies massively.
Useful out-of-combat spells: Wind Walk is good for travelling fast, Greater Scrying for acquiring information quickly.

You've only got one 7th-level spell slot, which will unfortunately probably go to Heal most of the time. Unfortunately, your spells retrieved are rather limited, so pick them carefully. You can change them around each day, so if a spell doesn't seem to be of any use, switch it out.

This is using only core and Complete Divine; other sources (Spell Compendium, Sandstorm, Frostburn) have some more great spells.

That's the best you can do, really. Hopefully, you can serve a useful party role this way. If not, you might want to take your DM up on his offer.

[Ralfarius]

A slight adjustment to your outlook on the nature of class building in relation to character background could help a great deal.

If you, for instance, looked at classes (even PrCs) as more of a set of abilities, rather than a 'career path' or what have you. In this instance, you have have a background set, then simply collaborate your class/feat/etc selection to squeeze the most you can out of the concept.

Also, it's a pretty common contention that spellcasting makes for poor direct-damage output, although I would be interested to see an archery-based build that dominates the damage output you described.

[serow]

Something helpful?

[Dode]

Level 14? With free concentration checks made by your spirit guide, Extraordinary Concentration and a Swift Concentration skill trick, you could be summoning 3 Greater Elementals (Summon Greater Elemental from the Spell Compendium has "Concentration" duration) indefinitely and blasting. Of course, spells like Spike Stones are better then any blast the Shaman can produce.

[SleepingOrange]

I'd drop the campaign like a hot potato if it was me; I don't care how 'great' your DM is, or how 'fun' your friends are, I really can't stand a party of people who let power come before character development and role-playing; that stuff is for video games, not tabletop RPGs.

Sure, combat is great; who doesn't love decapitating a goblin on an obscene critical hit, or disintegrating a construct? Nobody, that's who. But combat (and thus, combat-related munchkinizing) should ALWAYS take a backseat to character development, story-archs, and ROLE-PLAYING. It's a role-playing game.

Of course, that's just me. I just hate it when people turn Dungeons and Dragons into some kind of video-game-with-dice (don't get me wrong, I LOVE video games, and I'm a shamelessly anal leveller and completionist. I just don't think the two should mix.).

[Tengu]

Stormwind Fallacy, SleepingOrange, Stormwind Fallacy. Powergaming does not make anyone a worse roleplayer.

[SleepingOrange]

True, I was arguing a correlation, not a cause/effect. In the same way trans fat causes heart attacks(cause/effect) and may be linked to cancer due to lifestyle choices of people with high-trans fat diets(correlation), power-gamers are combat-focused(cause/effect) and are frequently not good role-players(correlation).

Besides, I just plain wouldn't want to be in a campaign as combat-focused as this one seems to be, especially if I was the proverbial fifth wheel. There's no fun in sucking, just as there's no fun in being over-powered.

[Jack Mann]

There is no correlation. A person's ability to powergame doesn't affect their ability to roleplay. Some people are good roleplayers. Some people are poor roleplayers. Some people are good powergamers. Some people are poor powergamers. Powergaming does not affect roleplaying in any way.

[Icewalker]

I dunno, it can be fun to be overpowered. I prefer being barely overpowered then being well-backgrounded and roleplayed as well...but I'm getting off topic here. In fact, this thread is basically off topic for me, because I know nothing about the spirit shaman class

But yeah, it looks like there is some good advice. Attempt to powergame up a bit without losing your characters background if you can. If you can't you can always leave if it really isn't that fun anymore.

[Dervag]

There is no correlation. A person's ability to powergame doesn't affect their ability to roleplay. Some people are good roleplayers. Some people are poor roleplayers. Some people are good powergamers. Some people are poor powergamers. Powergaming does not affect roleplaying in any way.

Trans fat doesn't affect cancer, either, but a lot of people who eat lots of trans fats have a higher risk of cancer because of other behaviors that are more common among the sort of people who have high trans fat levels.

So there's a correlation.

What you actually said would prove that there is no causation, that powergaming does not cause bad roleplaying or vice versa. And that is probably true. But there may be a correlation even in the absence of a causal link (some bad roleplayers are bad because they care only about the combat and numbers aspects of the game, and such people are disproportionately likely to powergame, for instance).

[Jannex]

Ooof. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with Spirit Shaman, so I can't offer much advice mechanically, but I do sympathize. Good luck!

[SleepingOrange]

Thank you Dervag. You got across my point succinctly and eloquently.

Basically, if your data is best represented by a line or bar graph: cause/effect
If your data is best represented by a scatter-plot: correlation

A cause/effect relationship makes power-gaming and role-playing mutually exclusive, and leads to the Stormwind Fallacy. No-one's arguing that.
A correlation leaves room for high-role-playing, high-power-gaming players, but shows a trend of an inverse relationship. OVERALL. Not entirely. TREND, not FUNCTION.

Jannex, we're in a fantasy setting: 'Been there, done that, bought the doublet.'

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, but with the data that's been given to us, I don't think it's fair to say "CherryC's friends are poor roleplayers" based solely on the alleged correlation between optimizing and poor roleplaying. Where you even come up with that idea...

I mean, it's the same as if I said "my friend had a heart attack" and you assumed "man, your friend must be fat."

***

Anyway, back to the actual topic. CherryC, let's address the facts:
1) You're unhappy because your character isn't as effective in combat as his party members.
2) You're able but unwilling to go back and change your character.
3) You're reluctant but able and willing to leave the campaign.

The instigating problem is 1), and there's a few ways you can address this:
A) Go back and optimize your character (I suggest Druid; it's hard not to optimize for both melee and spell utility, and healing's still available.) But you don't want to do this? Why not, exactly?
B) Leave the campaign. You've expressed this as an option, but it's understandably a last resort.
C) Ask the other players to change their characters. Don't do this, it's really not very fair to them, if they're having fun the way it is now.
D) Get over it. Stop being fixated on who does the most DPS in combat. Concede combat utility to the other guys, and enjoy the roleplaying and "chillaxing" you can do with them. Be sure to remember that D&D, despite all appearances, is not just about killing people and taking their stuff. I have faith that you're aware of this, hence my off-topic arguing above.

If it were me, I'd go with A, but that's just because I'm fixated on character-building. If you really don't want to re-assess your character and make him "better" mechanically, I suggest D, because that's really your only other option beyond leaving.

Take your pick.

[Draz74]

Stormwind Fallacy, SleepingOrange, Stormwind Fallacy. Powergaming does not necessarily make anyone a worse roleplayer.

Fixed that for you.

Powergaming certainly does make some people worse roleplayers. But not because it has to -- only because they let it. (They either do start thinking of the game as a video-game like mechanical-only challenge, or they still intend to roleplay but are too busy focusing on mechanics.)

[namo]

I disagree [edit: with Sleepyorange]. Many people I have come across, on this board or others, like to optimize their characters and do so with an extensive knowledge of game. The trick is, they end up caring a lot more about their characters (and not only the mechanics) than people who wave away the specifics.*
I would almost say that the correlation is positive between "powergamers" and "roleplayers", but it's only true when people reach a certain maturity.

* Don't get me wrong, I love diceless/free-form RPGs, but DnD allows some "controlled creativity" that is not always accessible elsewhere.

To the OP: you could post your current character to get suggestions on how to improve it.

[The_Snark]

I disagree [edit: with Sleepyorange]. Many people I have come across, on this board or others, like to optimize their characters and do so with an extensive knowledge of game. The trick is, they end up caring a lot more about their characters (and not only the mechanics) than people who wave away the specifics.*
I would almost say that the correlation is positive between "powergamers" and "roleplayers", but it's only true when people reach a certain maturity.

* Don't get me wrong, I love diceless/free-form RPGs, but DnD allows some "controlled creativity" that is not always accessible elsewhere.

Agreed, but I think Draz was simply trying to say that in some cases, it does happen. It also happens in reverse; people who don't care as much whether their characters do well sometimes don't care as much about their characters.

I don't think you're actually disagreeing.

Edit- Ah, editing ninjas. This doesn't seem to apply anymore, but I still think most people are generally agreeing.

To the OP: you could post your current character to get suggestions on how to improve it.

That would help, yes. Particularly what feats you have and what books your DM uses. Feat changes can be pretty unobtrusive, and as I said earlier, spell changes are effortless for a spirit shaman.

[horseboy]

Of course, that's just me. I just hate it when people turn Dungeons and Dragons into some kind of video-game-with-dice (don't get me wrong, I LOVE video games, and I'm a shamelessly anal leveller and completionist. I just don't think the two should mix.).

Well, that is all D&D is good for. You want to role play, play a role playing game.

[Jannex]

Jannex, we're in a fantasy setting: 'Been there, done that, bought the doublet.'

Or bodice, in the case of most of my characters.

[Nerd-o-rama]

horseboy, you may want to flee the mob holding pitchforks, torches, and Player's Handbooks that's gathering right now. I, for one, am willing to give you a five second head start.

[horseboy]

horseboy, you may want to flee the mob holding pitchforks, torches, and Player's Handbooks that's gathering right now. I, for one, am willing to give you a five second head start.

Ah, they're used to me carrying on about how trying to roleplay in D&D is like trying to bet a trifecta on a pony ride. Nobody listens when I say it anymore.

[Vuzzmop]

I'd drop the campaign like a hot potato if it was me; I don't care how 'great' your DM is, or how 'fun' your friends are, I really can't stand a party of people who let power come before character development and role-playing; that stuff is for video games, not tabletop RPGs.

Sure, combat is great; who doesn't love decapitating a goblin on an obscene critical hit, or disintegrating a construct? Nobody, that's who. But combat (and thus, combat-related munchkinizing) should ALWAYS take a backseat to character development, story-archs, and ROLE-PLAYING. It's a role-playing game.

Of course, that's just me. I just hate it when people turn Dungeons and Dragons into some kind of video-game-with-dice (don't get me wrong, I LOVE video games, and I'm a shamelessly anal leveller and completionist. I just don't think the two should mix.).

Stormwind kicks you in the face.

[Dode]

Stormwind is not proficient in Unarmed Strike, proceed to take your Snark of Opportunity.

[SleepingOrange]

Nerd-o-rama, I was not just assuming that these people were bad role-players; the context of the word 'munchkined' in the original post made it seem to me that CherryC was rather displeased. Maybe he's displeased for a different reason, but if you'll re-read my original posts, it says that that is what I would do, and how I felt. The ensuing debate about power-gaming vs role-playing is slightly off-topic. It started because I said I think that on the whole power-gamers are bad role-players, took off on the route of the Stormwind Fallacy, became a semantics debate, was corrected by a careful defenition of 'cause/effect' and 'correlation', and traveled down the road of 'who thinks most power-gamers are annoying vs who doesn't'.

Okay, now:

I mean, it's the same as if I said "my friend had a heart attack" and you assumed "man, your friend must be fat."

First, NO IT IS NOT. Not at all. As I defined it, heart attacks are not a FUNCTION of trans fat, they merely can be caused by it. y=/=2x^2-4. A line graph is more organic than a mathematical function.

Second, (and this is in the real world, and outside this debate) I would be safe in assuming, 'wow, your friend was PROBABLY fat'. That's why they say heart failure is one of the leading PREVENTABLE causes of death; sure, some people have a genetic pre-disposition towards heart disease, but those people are HUGELY outweighed(no pun intended) by people who died from that by being fat, unhealthy, and inactive. I am one of the latter, and I know it.

Take THAT, false analogy.

Oh, and Vuzzmop? Thank you kindly for clearly reading through the thread entirely and taking into account the arguments I made and defenitions I provided that clearly show I was not supporting the Stormwind Fallacy. Really, it's much appreciated.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I really don't think my analogy loses that much impact from replacing "must be" with "was probably". If you feel it would be more precise, I will state my official desire to change the wording, and leave the original in place as a record of my inability to nitpick my own statements.

Oh, and horseboy: duly noted.