Hero Oh Hero

[lord_khaine]

If Noel could do it, Malhart would have done something.

It is hard to believe Malhart would leave Chernyl a threat, even if he had to abandon his orphans.

Well Malhart could do something. Unfortunately it required him to be alive and active.
Right now its an emergency. It does not matter if Noels solution is worse than Malharts. That just locked Cherryl in a large town.

Stuff about Noel and #1

Else i think its quite unfair to call Noel a hyprocrite.
Just for a start #1 is actively trying to kill him, and by extention endangering the entire town.
While Cherryl isnt actively trying to do so. And possibly a problem that can be shut down by an esper.

All the same. Magical nightmares like the body snatcher quite clearly demonstrates its crucial to have an esper along.
So by definition, its the one trying to get rid of the esper who is the actual hazard to the mission.

[-D-]

Well Malhart could do something. Unfortunately it required him to be alive and active.
Right now its an emergency. It does not matter if Noels solution is worse than Malharts. That just locked Cherryl in a large town.

Missing my point. If Malhart knew Noel could disable Cherryl, he would probably try it.

Noel can mess with your powers even inside Malhart field. Malhart could have removed her power, and kept pretense that he was containing her.
Like how would JSP know he de-powered Cherryl?

#1 wants to kill Cherryl. With very few witnesses.
Noel wants to do ???
Nail wants a good black crystal stab.
Noah wants this day to end.

Also Noel didn't took the high ground here. He could have told Noah to shield them. I think he wants JSP out so he can try his solution. And seeing how Malhart wasn't ready to bet on Noel, neither would I.

[lord_khaine]

Im not missing a point.
Malhart already disabled Cheryls power. There wasnt a need for Noel to do so.
Until now, where some idiots shot Malhart with black crystal.

But.. no we dont have any evidence that Malhart could remove powers.
All he did was specifically supress Cheryls. As well as make it harder to sense things.
It does not mean anything that Noel were able to do stuff inside of the field.

As for what Noel want? Quite likely to shut down Cheryls powers. Free his family. Free his adoptive dad.
Get out of this stupid empire?

And why the heck should Noel take the high road, with a cold blooded murderer who is directly promising to kill him?
For all we can see #1 is a rabbid animal and should be treated as such.

[-D-]

Im not missing a point.
Malhart already disabled Cheryls power.
There wasnt a need for Noel to do so.

This proves you missed it. He didn't disable her power, he just suppressed it with his own. Malhart will probably die before Cheryl. Even if spirit users live long, Cherryl is younger and has a really powerful spirit as well. So, Malhart can't try to contain her in the long run.

My point was, if Noel possessed power to effectively disable Cherryl, not just temporary mute her, Malhart would have done so already.

Whatever Noel has probably won't work in long run. And him opting to kill JSP means he intends to escape.

As for what Noel want? Quite likely to shut down Cheryls powers. Free his family. Free his adoptive dad.

In regards to Cherryl.

[Grim Portent]

Even if all Noel can do is temporarily suppress Chernyl like Malhart was doing, that provides time to sort out a more permanent solution that doesn't necessarily involve killing her. She has done nothing wrong after all, so from an ethical standpoint it's preferable to find a way to contain her that lets her live as normal a life as is possible, as opposed to just shooting her.

Veda presumably had a containment plan of some sort, as well as a plan for using Chernyl as part of the Veda Project in some capacity. Probably something highly unethical, but likely still preferable to being summarily executed by the JSP.

[Forum Explorer]

It's hard to sympathize much with #1 when he's spent pretty much the entirety of his screen time acting like a frothing lunatic. Incompatible goals, yes, but at the same time, #1's been perfectly willing to murder everything in sight for perceived slights to his authority, even if it would mean endangering the mission. He thinks he (perhaps with the help of #2) can handle the mission on his own, even though this is transparently not the case.

Eh, whatever. I might be judging him a bit harshly because I find Noah tremendously amusing and do not wish him to be killed by some humourless twit.

Sure. #1 is a menance. If, say, the captain, wanted to kill him because he thinks the mission needs him dead to succeed, I wouldn't call him a hypocrite. But Chernyl (just clued in that her name is basically a short version of Chernobyl) is also an active threat to them and everyone else in the city for that matter. And Noel is willing to put his life on the line to try and save her. He didn't say something like 'I have something I want to try, if it works her powers would be disabled. If it doesn't, then I would let you kill her.' He was all 'I will find a way to spare her, no matter what'.

Even if all Noel can do is temporarily suppress Chernyl like Malhart was doing, that provides time to sort out a more permanent solution that doesn't necessarily involve killing her. She has done nothing wrong after all, so from an ethical standpoint it's preferable to find a way to contain her that lets her live as normal a life as is possible, as opposed to just shooting her.

Veda presumably had a containment plan of some sort, as well as a plan for using Chernyl as part of the Veda Project in some capacity. Probably something highly unethical, but likely still preferable to being summarily executed by the JSP.

Well we do know that a different Esper can permanently disable powers. It's not out of the question for Noel to be able to do the same, though maybe he doesn't actually know how to do that, and that's why Malhart didn't have Noel do it already.

Else i think its quite unfair to call Noel a hyprocrite.
Just for a start #1 is actively trying to kill him, and by extention endangering the entire town.
While Cherryl isnt actively trying to do so. And possibly a problem that can be shut down by an esper.

All the same. Magical nightmares like the body snatcher quite clearly demonstrates its crucial to have an esper along.
So by definition, its the one trying to get rid of the esper who is the actual hazard to the mission.

If Noel was confident in having a way to shut Cherryl down, I think he would've been specific on how he was going to do that. As is, I think he has more of a hope then a plan.

That being said, Cherryl might not be in control, but she is actively threatening the entire town. It is her power doing this afterall, and presumably killing her would shut the whole thing down. This isn't a hypothetical 'her power might go out of control and kill innocents', no that is happening right now. Every minute she lives is being paid for in the deaths of civilians and soldiers alike.

Like I said, #1 jumped the gun in his interrogation of Noel. He shouldn't have brought it up until they were on the verge of success. But he isn't wrong about Noel being a threat to the mission.

Ideally, you'd have both working together until the end, where even if they both died, someone else could take the final step to defeat Cherryl. As is, their infighting might very well doom the mission. #1 may have started it, but only because Noel is exactly the threat he says he is.

[Gez]

Like I said, #1 jumped the gun in his interrogation of Noel. He shouldn't have brought it up until they were on the verge of success. But he isn't wrong about Noel being a threat to the mission.

Ideally, you'd have both working together until the end, where even if they both died, someone else could take the final step to defeat Cherryl. As is, their infighting might very well doom the mission. #1 may have started it, but only because Noel is exactly the threat he says he is.

I have two questions about #1. The first is how did he come across the information about Noel in the middle of this sewer romp? If he had an opposition of principle against working with him because of his allegiance, he could have brought that up before they left on the mission.

The other question is how could a man so devoid of subtlety be the head of a secret police. I know they weren't operating undercover in this mission, as everyone else including Noel knew they were from the JSP, but still I'd expect the first officer of the secret police in this city to be more adept at cloak-and-dagger stuff, deception, misdirection, etc. When he's just been a brute force bully who "solved" every problem by threatening summary execution.

[-D-]

I have two questions about #1. The first is how did he come across the information about Noel in the middle of this sewer romp?

No idea. I think he recognized him or something.

The other question is how could a man so devoid of subtlety be the head of a secret police. I know they weren't operating undercover in this mission, as everyone else including Noel knew they were from the JSP.

I think they are like Gestapo. Given high enough power, they can bully anyone into silence. Why be subtle when you can execute the witnesses.

Or neorice just imagines all secret police is like that.

[lord_khaine]

This proves you missed it. He didn't disable her power, he just suppressed it with his own. Malhart will probably die before Cheryl. Even if spirit users live long, Cherryl is younger and has a really powerful spirit as well. So, Malhart can't try to contain her in the long run.

My point was, if Noel possessed power to effectively disable Cherryl, not just temporary mute her, Malhart would have done so already.

Whatever Noel has probably won't work in long run. And him opting to kill JSP means he intends to escape.

Actually no it means you did in fact miss it. Cherryl's power was disabled inside the town while Malhart were active.
I newer claimed it was a PERMANENT disable. Thats something you came up with on your own.

And Noel is willing to put his life on the line to try and save her. He didn't say something like 'I have something I want to try, if it works her powers would be disabled. If it doesn't, then I would let you kill her.' He was all 'I will find a way to spare her, no matter what'.

Your kinda leaving out some raving lunatic held a gun to his face. And for that matter didnt even allow him to expand on his point before shutting him up.
That scene alone justifies killing #1 as self defence in my eyes.
Besides the bit about him being a raving lunatic thats a danger to the mission.

If Noel was confident in having a way to shut Cherryl down, I think he would've been specific on how he was going to do that. As is, I think he has more of a hope then a plan.

That being said, Cherryl might not be in control, but she is actively threatening the entire town. It is her power doing this afterall, and presumably killing her would shut the whole thing down. This isn't a hypothetical 'her power might go out of control and kill innocents', no that is happening right now. Every minute she lives is being paid for in the deaths of civilians and soldiers alike.

Like I said, #1 jumped the gun in his interrogation of Noel. He shouldn't have brought it up until they were on the verge of success. But he isn't wrong about Noel being a threat to the mission.

Ideally, you'd have both working together until the end, where even if they both died, someone else could take the final step to defeat Cherryl. As is, their infighting might very well doom the mission. #1 may have started it, but only because Noel is exactly the threat he says he is.

Noel is an Esper. His whole thing is shutting down other peoples magic.
What more specific does he need?

And when the mission is basically impossible without Noel. Then by definition he -cant- be a threat to it.
Since without him there isnt a mission.
Where besides that. The only evidence we have of Noel potentially betraying anyone is the insane ramblings of a rabbid idiot.
The only thing Noel has said. Is that HE wont kill Cherryl. There is a world of difference between that and standing aside if he is unable to handle things.

In conclusion. Noel isnt a threat. And some nightmares can kill with a glance, so the mission is basically impossible without.

I have two questions about #1. The first is how did he come across the information about Noel in the middle of this sewer romp? If he had an opposition of principle against working with him because of his allegiance, he could have brought that up before they left on the mission.

Its not a unusual theory to develop with the amount of information Noel have about the nightmares.

[-D-]

Actually no it means you did in fact miss it. Cherryl's power was disabled inside the town while Malhart were active.
I newer claimed it was a PERMANENT disable. Thats something you came up with on your own.

You didn't ask for clarification. Just assumed I meant a temporary solution. I meant a permanent fix that, doesn't require you to kill her. Because as we've seen with Malhart, temporary fix is no fix at all.

Even if Malhart didn't eat a black crystal bullet back then, he would have died at some point and cause an even greater catastrophe. Because his powers suppressed it, but don't prevent it from growing stronger.

Rn, solution to Chernyl might be - bullet to the head or stab with black crystal. Barring some spirit shenanigans.

[Forum Explorer]

I have two questions about #1. The first is how did he come across the information about Noel in the middle of this sewer romp? If he had an opposition of principle against working with him because of his allegiance, he could have brought that up before they left on the mission.

The other question is how could a man so devoid of subtlety be the head of a secret police. I know they weren't operating undercover in this mission, as everyone else including Noel knew they were from the JSP, but still I'd expect the first officer of the secret police in this city to be more adept at cloak-and-dagger stuff, deception, misdirection, etc. When he's just been a brute force bully who "solved" every problem by threatening summary execution.

I think it was because Noel recognized so many nightmares, and the JSP would know that the Veda Project kids shouldn't know that information. Or at least, that much information.

Your kinda leaving out some raving lunatic held a gun to his face. And for that matter didnt even allow him to expand on his point before shutting him up.
That scene alone justifies killing #1 as self defence in my eyes.
Besides the bit about him being a raving lunatic thats a danger to the mission.



Noel is an Esper. His whole thing is shutting down other peoples magic.
What more specific does he need?

And when the mission is basically impossible without Noel. Then by definition he -cant- be a threat to it.
Since without him there isnt a mission.
Where besides that. The only evidence we have of Noel potentially betraying anyone is the insane ramblings of a rabbid idiot.
The only thing Noel has said. Is that HE wont kill Cherryl. There is a world of difference between that and standing aside if he is unable to handle things.

In conclusion. Noel isnt a threat. And some nightmares can kill with a glance, so the mission is basically impossible without.

Yeah, with a gun to his face, he still stuck to his position of 'I will save her.' And #1's question was 'if it came down to it, would you be willing to kill her?' There was certainly room in that question for Noel to answer 'if we can't disable her power, then yes' Or even 'I don't think I could, but I wouldn't stop any of you'

Sure, it was self defense to fight against #1, no question there. But I'm arguing it would be self defense to kill Cherryl as well.

On a sidenote, I'm upset at how Noel tried to use Noah as a weapon against #1.


He needs to be more specific in how permanent a solution it is. Can he shut her down until he goes to sleep/loses concentration? Well that's not quite useless, but it is hardly a long term solution. Can he shut her down, so long as he is alive? That's better, but has way too much potential for a repeat incident. Or can we shut her down permanently? Well, if he could, I imagine he would have already.

So far we've only seen 1 threat that actually needed Noel present to deal with. And maybe that one could be handled if multiple well armed people fought it at the same time, because that body snatch technique seemed slow. And Noel gave flat out bad advice about the heart spiders.


Noel is totally a threat. But he's less of a threat then #1, and is substantially more useful. That being said, I fully expect him to be an obstacle or betray the group at some point.

[Kantaki]

New comic

Oh come on!
What does it take to kill this guy?
At this point it would be a bigger twist if he isn't a Nightmare.

Also, Nightmare or not, I really hope that call didn't connect.

[-D-]

Oh come on!
What does it take to kill this guy?
At this point it would be a bigger twist if he isn't a Nightmare.

Also, Nightmare or not, I really hope that call didn't connect.

I think he died already. Could be another nightmare, using his body/mind, to cause more suffering.

Implying Chernyl's power can survive a nuke or three.

[Kantaki]

New comic

#3 seems like a reasonable fellow. I'm sure they can talk this out.

Or at least he didn't press the big red button already and he's answering Halmer. That's more than you can say about his buddies.

The only question is, was that a good "did you just shoot my boss" or a bad "did you just shoot my boss".
("Thanks the author that wacko's dead" vs. "you're all traitors, town goes boom now")

[-D-]

Apparently JSP operates like a Clingon society. I.e. promotion on death.

[lord_khaine]

It seemed like a pretty clear assumption with then literally having numbers as names.

But good riddance former #1. Even dying he showed what a waste of a human being he were.

Actual question is how the current #1 handle things.
He does not seem entirely sane. None of the secret policemen do.

[Gez]

Obligatory:

Spoiler: Video

Show

[-D-]

It seemed like a pretty clear assumption with then literally having numbers as names.

Not really. I assumed those were just codenames. Like 007. Doesn't mean there are only 7 active agents.

Also Lazy town has more subtle spies than Justeopeia.

[Ibrinar]

Spoiler

Show

Certainly an anti climatic way to negate the bomb threat, that made me laugh.^^ Though I suppose it might still be somewhere where he can find it.

[lord_khaine]

Not really. I assumed those were just codenames. Like 007. Doesn't mean there are only 7 active agents.

No because 007 does not eleminate the existance of 008, 009, or even 0010.

But yeah a slightly silly outcome.
At the same time this is kinda bad. It means its not possible to nuke Haven if the team fails.
And words fail to describe how scary Cheryls power is.

That goes double so in a place like this. Without trained magic users to oppose the nightmares.
Cherryl might be in the top 3 spot as far as magic power goes. But at least in heroland there is the hope that a band of heroes team up and saves the day.
Or in the Global Order. A paladin unit. Here Noel seems like basically the only viable counter.

[Forum Explorer]

No because 007 does not eleminate the existance of 008, 009, or even 0010.

But yeah a slightly silly outcome.
At the same time this is kinda bad. It means its not possible to nuke Haven if the team fails.
And words fail to describe how scary Cheryls power is.

That goes double so in a place like this. Without trained magic users to oppose the nightmares.
Cherryl might be in the top 3 spot as far as magic power goes. But at least in heroland there is the hope that a band of heroes team up and saves the day.
Or in the Global Order. A paladin unit. Here Noel seems like basically the only viable counter.

It made me laugh, that's for sure. I thought for sure that they'd have to jump into the mist on the off chance that being in a pocket dimension would save them from the bombs.


Honestly, from what we've seen Heroland wouldn't be that better off. Without previous knowledge of the nightmares, the heroes would be pretty screwed, and would eventually get worn down and eliminated. I think only the really high level magic users would be anything more than cannon fodder.

[lord_khaine]

It made me laugh, that's for sure. I thought for sure that they'd have to jump into the mist on the off chance that being in a pocket dimension would save them from the bombs.

That was honestly my guess as well. A frantic escape into the pocket dimension as everyone else are nuked.
But i guess it kills a bit to much of the cast Neorice has build up over the last 5 years.

All the same. I would not have called todays result a victory. The situation is still ****ed.
There is a reason the nuke was there as a emergency.

Honestly, from what we've seen Heroland wouldn't be that better off. Without previous knowledge of the nightmares, the heroes would be pretty screwed, and would eventually get worn down and eliminated. I think only the really high level magic users would be anything more than cannon fodder.

Hmm. Well we dont know how much of the nightmare BS that can be blocket by spirit techniques.
Though since they in turn are the creation of a magic user. Then my initial assumption is "all of it".
And in that case i dont think we have seen a nightmare who would not have its ass kicked by even a mid level hero like Silent.

As it is, the nightmares are scary because their opponents are a couple regular soldiers and a pair of kids.
While a team of heroes would represent so much concentrated power that they would win fights without attrition.

The biggest issue is they would need someone with at least decent spirit observation skill to find Cherryl.

[-D-]

No because 007 does not eleminate the existance of 008, 009, or even 0010.

Bond 007 didn't become 006 upon 006 death. So just having a number for a name does not make it a Clingon hierarchy (where death means someone is getting promoted)

Which raises unfortunate questions. Are these the top 3 secret police in Justeopeia?

[Kantaki]

Bond 007 didn't become 006 upon 006 death. So just having a number for a name does not make it a Clingon hierarchy (where death means someone is getting promoted)

Which raises unfortunate questions. Are these the top 3 secret police in Justeopeia?

Top three field agents probably.
Which'd be depressing enough, really.

Depends if there's a Number Zero.
And/or letters and where those stand rankwise.

[-D-]

Top three field agents probably.

How would that work? Which field? Like what happens if two #1 are on the same bridge?

[Kantaki]

How would that work? Which field? Like what happens if two #1 are on the same bridge?

There is only one Number One. Hence why Number Three is now Number One. Number One and Number Two died and Three got promoted.
Now, why they send their three highest ranking guys to Haven I can't tell, but if they're indicative of the general quality of the Secret Police it can only go downhill as the numbers increase.

[Grim Portent]

I think the numbers are just impromptu codenames they use temporarily when dealing with non secret police, rather than their formal rank in the JSP.

But number 3, being the most junior of this team, and seemingly a bit off when they were first introduced,* is taking them to heart more than he should.

Given what we've seen of 1 and 2, 3 probably got threatened with being shot on a near daily basis, and was subject to inhumane working conditions as part of normal operations. Him being more than a bit crazy makes sense to me.


*As I recall he seemed confused as to which of him and number 2 was in fact number 3. He didn't exactly come across as professional or prepared.

[Ailurus]

Top three field agents probably.

Top 3 field agents in Haven, anyway. Could go either way in comparison to Justopia as a whole. It might be the JSP put their 3 top agents in Haven due to the risk from Chernyl. Or it might be that Haven was considered a super low priority situation since it was contained by Malhart and the JSP as a whole said "well, all they need to do is punch in a code if a very unlikely event happens so let's send these dummies over there to get them out of the way."

Guy Juliet stands in massive contrast to the JSP. Also from Justopia, also in law enforcement (though, regular cop not secret police), and he's the polar opposite of the JSP guys - smart, semi-caring, willing to work with people instead of just killing them, and still effective in at least disabling opponents (at least, he dealt with both Lacey and Piper). Granted, he is a well known (maybe celebrity) cop not rank-and-file cop, but if one of your top cops is so vastly beyond your best secret police, you need to revisit your secret police training and policies.

[lord_khaine]

Bond 007 didn't become 006 upon 006 death. So just having a number for a name does not make it a Clingon hierarchy (where death means someone is getting promoted)

No but the thing missing there is that Bond wasnt the superior to 008 and 009.

[Gez]

No but the thing missing there is that Bond wasnt the superior to 008 and 009.

But also he's 007, not #007. There's a difference between "One" and "Number One".


Anyways, RIP Halmer. As basically the only decent person in the entire Justopea state apparatus, you had no chance of survival.