Undead campagin

[Kel_Arath]

Just as a start to this, its not only undead, just there will be lots (and lots) of undead towns, places, etc. Also any form of undead (skeleton, zombie and the works) can be... non-mindless (mindful?) just most aren't, this leaves it open to fighting skeleton enemies with class levels and such.

Given that, what are some problems any of you have encountered running/playing undead campaings? (I want problems from player and DM sides)

Note: Obviously turning clerics will pwn, and yes there will be some homebrewed stuff to make rogues not suck for sneak attacks (not the feats, just the rogues study undead or something, still working on that). Also I'm not looking for suggestions on it, just want to know what conflicts there are in running it.

Thanks in advance.

[JackMage666]

Are the PCs undead or living? If they're not Undead, then it's overall pretty standard. If the PCs are all Undead, many spells become pointless against them, but it's not all bad because you can pretty much do away with LA for certain undead (LA is for balance between party members, after all, so if they all have +2 LA, then they're all balanced, just make the CRs a tad higher). The biggest problem would occur if you had a Living/Undead PC party - Balance is the main issue, and the LAs for the undead members would make them weaker in some aspects than the ther characters.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I have exactly this issue in my game world - there's an empire founded by a lich, where his undead minions are a vital part of his heirarchy.

One of the things I've done is adopt the old Classic D&D rule of undead Pawns. By this method, a free-willed undead (a "liege") can take control of a number of undead not exceeding twice its own Hit Dice or level. The process of doing so is similar to the Rebuke Undead process, but permanent. Undead that are controlled by a liege (called "pawns") are turned as if the attempt was against the liege, but damage is inflicted against the pawns' hit dice.

To adapt this to an empire controlling lich, I decided that a liege could command its pawns to become lieges, and thus have an immense network of controlled undead at its command. Sub-lieges' pawns turn as if the attempt were being made against the sub-liege (otherwise you'd have even the humble skeleton being turned as though it were a 50th level Lich Wizard, or something).

I allowed players to have undead characters, but made sure that they had to deal with a few attempts to control them from other undead.

Hope that helps.

[Zim]

The Necropolitan from Libris Mortis might be a good addition to your campaign. IIRC they're just undead people and sound like a fine PC option or stock inhabitants of undead towns.

[leperkhaun]

Clerics and paladins work very well, as do wizards with command undead.

Just make sure you have a class that can access (through spells or UMD), restoration spells and death ward and the like.

[Runolfr]

It seems like there are some low-level spells in Complete Adventurer that allow you to sneak attack undead. That or a prestige class. Can't seem to find the information online, though.

[Kel_Arath]

Thanks for all the help, I'm slowly improving on it bit by bit, and vexed's idea is a pretty cool one that I might use. Have a giant citadel in the middle of a rather large area, using the lowest groups to patrol the plains, mid in the city, and higher ups in the citadel itself with the main undead in the top or something.
Also, yes the players can be undead, even a basic skeleton or one of the others like in Libris Mortis (one of my favorite books, undead = pwn).
And to get some more specified answers, what are some problems with undead characters in the party? Does it make it more difficult because you can't let them be seen in some towns, does it make it easier because they can just take watch all night? And my friend mentioned something about undead characters not being able to run/charge because of the no con, but i couldn't find this in RAW, whats the official verdict on that?

[mostlyharmful]

the main two problems with undead PCs are the list of undead immunities which is as long as your arm, seriously. A casters opptions are seriously curtailed when they run into undead interms of necromancy, enchantment, transmutation and evocation . #The other is that the hp is nolonger tied to the neubleuos concept of class and there isn't any diffenrence in con, so the rules can't penalize you for playing a straight caster, ie the tank and the wizard will have the same hp (with the wizard having more opptions for getting hold of temporary hp)

[Kel_Arath]

Well I'm going to houserule some things for the HD and all that jazz, also since its a mostly undead campaign the casters will be prepared for things like that, so that wont be too much of a problem.

[A Gray Phantom]

Note: Obviously turning clerics will pwn, and yes there will be some homebrewed stuff to make rogues not suck for sneak attacks (not the feats, just the rogues study undead or something, still working on that). Also I'm not looking for suggestions on it, just want to know what conflicts there are in running it.

Thanks in advance.

Libris Mortis, the Books of the Dead. This is a big benefit to any campaign that features the unliving. I'm currently running a campaign that features a desert crawlin' with zombies (ala "Land of the Dead" via Sands of the Dead).

And because I love it so much: "Land of the Dead!"

To deal with clerics, I prefer the "Living Man" hunters. Intelligent undead that are trained specifically to hunt clerics. Ghoul rangers and rogues make good examples of such, as well as mummy clerics that can bolster their negatively charged allies .

A monster in the Libris Mortis called a "quell" is specifically designed to tackle clerics. They seperate the pious from their diety, restricting them from spells and turning abilities.

There is a poison in the Complete Scoundrel called "blasphemix." It similarly removes a cleric's powers.

Speaking of poisons, the book, Poisoncraft: The Dark Art, goes into detail about a particular type of poisonous undead template labeled "darkblood." Upon creation, this intelligent undead is infused with a type of poison, which is then used as a breath weapon. Poisoncraft further details types of poison that removes different class abilities, ala a cleric's turn or rebuke undead ability.

I'm currently building a darkblood human ranger that has human clerics as her favored enemy. If you request it then I'd be glad to share her stats with you. I call her, Bella Donna .

As far as dealing with rogues, they specifically are supposed to be weak against undead. If you give them a feat to get passed that, then you risk unbalancing the game. Suddenly rogues can take on all situations, including ones where they need to be at a disadvantage so to let other players get spotlight time.

The trick is in providing the rogue with opportunities to use class abilities. In my campaign, I challenged the players to sneak through a city taken over by zombies. The rogue was at a disadvantage, until they encountered some (living) bandits taking advantage of the lack of security and looting a weapons store. The rogue, under instruction from his leader (a cop), was able to sneak up and scatter the bandits.

Another encounter was a door that the party needed to get past, but couldn't break down. While the rogue picked the lock (1d4+1 minutes), the team held off waves of zombies until they finally got inside to safety.

The rogue's hide skills are particularly helpful in dodging zombies. Contrary to popular belief, zombies don't have any sort of "life sense." (In fact, very few undead have this mythical ability, even if it exists.)

That said, I believe there is a spell that gives the rogue the ability to positively imbue his attacks, allowing him to sneak attack undead. I don't know what this is, though.

[Arbitrarity]

The rogue's hide skills are particularly helpful in dodging zombies. Contrary to popular belief, zombies don't have any sort of "life sense." (In fact, very few undead have this mythical ability, even if it exists.)

That said, I believe there is a spell that gives the rogue the ability to positively imbue his attacks, allowing him to sneak attack undead. I don't know what this is, though.

See the Dread Wraith, and the spell is Gravestrike. Also, look out for greater augmented Truedeath crystals.

[TSGames]

Given that, what are some problems any of you have encountered running/playing undead campaings? (I want problems from player and DM sides)

Note: Obviously turning clerics will pwn, and yes there will be some homebrewed stuff to make rogues not suck for sneak attacks (not the feats, just the rogues study undead or something, still working on that). Also I'm not looking for suggestions on it, just want to know what conflicts there are in running it.

Thanks in advance.

I'm currently DMing a high-power undead campaign. The entire party is undead: an awakened half-dragon skeleton variant, a possessed suit of armor, a vampire spawn, and a ghost. I haven't tried clerics against them... yet, so no advice there. I can tell you that the LA of undead would normally make them extremely underpowered(certainly I would not desire to play one, but I took care of this in my campaign). The main problems with undead campaigns are the HP and fort saves. Due to a null CON score each of these is low, and undead do not have the 10 HP buffer between them and death, they are destroyed at 0. Without using home-brewed it's very hard to get around this. In addition, undead immunities are extremely valuable. Many spells don't effect them, they don't worry about critical hits, poison, or sneak attack damage. If you're running an undead campaign, be wary of this, for it can make an encounter far too hard or far too easy. Also remember that undead are fragile, fragile creatures...without a bit of homebrewing.

[Kel_Arath]

Awesome and cool, these have all been amazingly helpful. That should pretty much do it, I'm off to make my campaign, wish me luck.

[TSGames]

#The other is that the hp is nolonger tied to the neubleuos concept of class and there isn't any diffenrence in con, so the rules can't penalize you for playing a straight caster, ie the tank and the wizard will have the same hp (with the wizard having more opptions for getting hold of temporary hp)

This is untrue. Undead gain HD, skills, and saves based on the classes they take. If an undead advances a level of undead(as opposed to a class level), then they gain the d12, BAB, skills, and saves of the undead type. This would be like playing a Thri-kreen and willingly advancing a level in mostrous humanoid instead of a level of...let's say wizard.

This is why undead are so fragile. If you choose the right undead it may state in the template that "All current and future HD are upgraded to D12s," otherwise most undead merely have all current HD upgraded to D12's. From there they advance by class, and without CON they end up substantially less HP than normal, and they are destroyed at 0. They are very fragile.

In regards to what you asked about them not being seen in town during the day. It depends on the campaign setting and the undead played. In some settings it's a very bad idea to have undead roaming about during the day, and in others it may not be such a big deal. Some undead are vulnerable or destroyed in sunlight, and, so far, that has been the greater deterrent in my campaign.

[SleepingOrange]

Yeah, you haven't told us much. Are the alignment restrictions present, absent, or altered? Is a zombie a sight to be feared, or the local butcher and the best poker player in town? We really need to know this kind of information before venturing an opinion or any advice.

Oh, and yes, the Libris Mortis is the most amazing supplement evar.

[serow]

As a rogue, you'd want the Penetrating Strike alternate class feature from Dungeonscape.
You can now sneak undead/constructs/etc at half-sneak dice.

Because it's not fun being so useless in combat.

[Kel_Arath]

Yeah, you haven't told us much. Are the alignment restrictions present, absent, or altered? Is a zombie a sight to be feared, or the local butcher and the best poker player in town? We really need to know this kind of information before venturing an opinion or any advice.

No there aren't any restriction on alignment, and fearing a zombie is a town to town basis. In some places its all undead, in some its mixed, in some its impartial, and some are all "undead are the devil, kill them all". Think of undead as another race but feelings are more extreme for them (ie: "KILL THE UNDEAD" as opposed to the normal "Orcs are stinky")

[Mojo_Rat]

This is untrue. Undead gain HD, skills, and saves based on the classes they take. If an undead advances a level of undead(as opposed to a class level), then they gain the d12, BAB, skills, and saves of the undead type. This would be like playing a Thri-kreen and willingly advancing a level in mostrous humanoid instead of a level of...let's say wizard.

This is why undead are so fragile. If you choose the right undead it may state in the template that "All current and future HD are upgraded to D12s," otherwise most undead merely have all current HD upgraded to D12's. From there they advance by class, and without CON they end up substantially less HP than normal, and they are destroyed at 0. They are very fragile.

In regards to what you asked about them not being seen in town during the day. It depends on the campaign setting and the undead played. In some settings it's a very bad idea to have undead roaming about during the day, and in others it may not be such a big deal. Some undead are vulnerable or destroyed in sunlight, and, so far, that has been the greater deterrent in my campaign.

All your HD as an undead are d12's regardlss of when you get them. It is in compensation for having no con. It would make no sense to deny PC's or NPC's the con bonus and then still subject them to say 1d4 hps.

Secondly if you have a monster class you /have/ to finish it it is not optional.

To the Op I ran a Undead campaign a few years ago it was level 6-7 but i never finished the campaign only a few sessions and the frst adventure. The only thing that I found was an issue (at this level range) Was the Mummy PC cleric in his full plate + mummy natural armor had a rather insane AC. It was a little bit of an issue at the level we played at but might not be one later on.

[Kel_Arath]

To the Op I ran a Undead campaign a few years ago it was level 6-7 but i never finished the campaign only a few sessions and the frst adventure. The only thing that I found was an issue (at this level range) Was the Mummy PC cleric in his full plate + mummy natural armor had a rather insane AC. It was a little bit of an issue at the level we played at but might not be one later on.

Mummy class is like... 13 levels, how was there a level 6-7 mummy cleric?

[SoD]

About the rogue, something I recently posted in another thread could help. It's the Undead Stalker, mentioned in the Dungeon Masters Guide. Sort of a roguey rangery thingy.

Creating New Classes
It's possible to create entirely new classes, or rather, to alter existing classes so drastically that they're no longer recognizable. For example, you could make the following adjustments to the ranger.

* Limit his weapon selection to resemble the rogue's list of weapon proficiencies.
* Change his favored enemy ability so that it applies only to undead, and his bonus improves by 2 every five levels.
* Give him the rogue's sneak attack ability, but change it so that it's only usable against undead.
* Change his spell list so that it consists of spells that deal strictly with undead or that are used for subterfuge and sneaking.
* At 3rd level, give him the paladin's smite evil ability, usable only against undead.


Now the class is the undead stalker, a stealthy character skilled in tracking and slaying undead.

Direct quote from the DMG, for what it's worth.

That's my 2 cp worth.

[Lolzords]

For the rogues, I think there's a feat that allows you to use sneak attack against the undead, but I would give each rogue parcipatent (sp?) that feat for free, as the rogue wouldn't really have much research to do about the campaign. (other then the treasure)

[Kel_Arath]

For the rogues, I think there's a feat that allows you to use sneak attack against the undead, but I would give each rogue parcipatent (sp?) that feat for free, as the rogue wouldn't really have much research to do about the campaign. (other then the treasure)

I was going to give them the option of sneak attack living or undead, but only one or the other.

[Mojo_Rat]

Mummy class is like... 13 levels, how was there a level 6-7 mummy cleric?

He was a cleric before he was a mummy.

He was like 3 levels of cleric 4 levels of mummy if i recall corectly had round a 28-30 ac. Although that number could be off without actualy trying to do the real math involved and not going off of 2 year old fuzzy memory.

[TSGames]

All your HD as an undead are d12's regardlss of when you get them. It is in compensation for having no con. It would make no sense to deny PC's or NPC's the con bonus and then still subject them to say 1d4 hps.

Secondly if you have a monster class you /have/ to finish it it is not optional.

The first of what you have stated is untrue. The second is true, but bears no relation to my previous post.

It doesn't have to make sense, it's the rules. If you want to houserule otherwise, more power to you, but that doesn't help this discussion. If you're going to contradict my claim, please provide your RAW support.

[Goober4473]

If you're looking for a good list of player-usable templates, I made one for the undead game I'm running. Also, here's an example of an undead society: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57839&

Templates:
Bone Creature (LA +3): Skeletal undead. See Book of Vile Darkness (page 184) for statistics, except replace half damage from slashing and piercing with damage reduction 5/bludgeoning.
Corpse Creature (LA +2): Zombie-like undead. See Book of Vile Darkness (page 185) for statistics, except add damage reduction 5/slashing and corpse creatures can't run.
Curst (LA +6): Cursed undead that cannot die. See Monsters of Faerun (page 87) for statistics.
Ghost (LA +5): Spectral remains of intelligent beings. See Monster Manual (page 212) for statistics.
Gravetouched Ghoul (LA +4): Empowered ghouls that retain their memories of life. See Libris Mortis (page 104) for statistics. Player character gravetouched ghouls should not have the diet dependant ability (increasing their LA to +4).
Half-Vampire (LA +2): Children born from tainted parents, those whose sires were killed while they were being turned, or the spawns of vampires who have reproduced through the power of blood. See Libris Mortis (page 106) for statistics.
Hooded Pupil (LA +4): "Apprentice" vampires who are not yet truly undead. See Libris Mortis (page 108) for statistics.
Lich (LA +4): Powerful undead spellcasters. See Monster Manual (page 216) for statistics.
Mummified Creature (LA +5): Mummies that retain the memories of their life. See Libris Mortis (page 110) for statistics. Player character mummified characters do not have mummy rot, and their LA is +5.
Necropolitan (LA +1): Undead humanoids. See Libris Mortis (page 114) for statistics.
Revenant (LA +4): Revenants are undead created to take vengeance on their killers. Once this mission is complete, they turn to dust. Some, however, remain despite their target's death. See Monsters of Faerun (page 93) for statistics. Player character revenants do not have the vengeful strike, paralyzing gaze, or find the guilty abilities, and the person who killed them is dead (reducing their LA to +4).
Spectral Creature (LA +7): Specters that retain their memories from life. See Savage Species (page 129) for statistics.
Umbral Creature (LA +5): Incorporeal shadows. See Savage Species (page 134) for statistics.
Vampire (LA +7): Undead that feed on the blood of mortals. See Monster Manual (page 221) for statistics. Vampires have an inescapable craving for life force and a diet dependency on blood (see Libris Mortis).
Vampire Spawn (LA +4): Freed minions of a destroyed vampire. See below for statistics.
Wight (LA +4): Twisted undead that lurk in areas of death. See Savage Species (page 136) for statistics.
Wraith (LA +7): Incorporeal undead created from darkness. See Savage Species (page 138) for statistics.

Vampire Spawn:

Spoiler

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- Undead type.
- d12 hit dice.
- Darkvision 60 feet.
- Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire spawn can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round. On each such successful drain attack, the vampire spawn gains 5 temporary hit pints.
- Domination (Su): A vampire spawn can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must take a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell from a 5th level caster. The ability has a range of 30 feet. The save DC is Charisma-based.
- Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire spawn’s slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 12 + charisma modifier for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. For each such negative level bestowed, the vampire spawn gains 5 temporary hit points.
- Fast Healing (Ex): A vampire spawn heals 2 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Once at rest in its coffin, it is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 2 hit points per round.
- Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire spawn can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 6th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.
- Slam attack: Vampire spawns have a slam attack that deals damage based on size (see vampire description).
- Spider Climb (Ex): A vampire spawn can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.
- Skills: Vampire spawn have a +4 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
- Vulnerabilities: Vampire spawn are subject to the same weaknesses vampires are. Vampire spawn have an inescapable craving for life force and a diet dependency on blood (see Libris Mortis).
- Level adjustment +4: Vampire spawn are much more powerful than other races and gain levels more slowly.

The Rogue varient that allows them to sneak attack undead at 1/2 dice, but give up Trap Sense, is useful. Also, Whirling Frenzy for undead barbarians (Unearthed Arcana, page 66). If you're worried about class balance where everyone has d12 hit dice, this is the varient I created:

Undead hit dice: Undead with class levels all have d12 hit dice as normal, but instead of rolling each level, they have a set number of hit points per level, based on the hit die of the class they've taken. A class with d12 hit dice grants 10 hit points per level, a class with d10 hit dice grants 9, a class with d8 hit dice grants 8, a class with d6 hit dice grants 7, and a class with d4 hit dice grants 6. Player character with regular undead hit dice gain 10 hit points per level.