Goin' right to Hell.

[TimeWizard]

It occured to me, and probably all of you, and probably all your friends, that PCs are goin' right to hell. How many times can you get away with slaughtering "usually chaotic evil" cave dwellers and taking their stuff? Does anyone actually attempt diplomacy anymore? By the end of one campaign PCs are practically the four horsemen. Destabalizing empires, summoning demons, deliberately meddling in extra-planar events, and even dei-i-cide. Help me ease my Jimminy Cricket... why aren't all of our beloved characters taking the express elevator down?

<obligatory Do Not Pass Go remark>
<obligatory Do Not Wig Out It's Just For Fun statement>

[Solo]

It occured to me, and probably all of you, and probably all your friends, that PCs are goin' right to hell. How many times can you get away with slaughtering "usually chaotic evil" cave dwellers and taking their stuff? Does anyone actually attempt diplomacy anymore? By the end of one campaign PCs are practically the four horsemen. Destabalizing empires, summoning demons, deliberately meddling in extra-planar events, and even dei-i-cide. Help me ease my Jimminy Cricket... why aren't all of our beloved characters taking the express elevator down?

<obligatory Do Not Pass Go remark>
<obligatory Do Not Wig Out It's Just For Fun statement>

W to the TF?

[slexlollar89]

I take diplomacy every chance I get... and know a ton of players who do the same. Besides, it's not lke PCs clearing out the "usually CE" cave dwellers are exalted, so they can kill whatever presumably CE probably CN, NE creatures they want. AND get away with it.

[Irreverent Fool]

Well, the reason all my well-loved characters aren't going to burn forever is that they either die before 6th level in a still roleplay-heavy rather than hack-n-slash world, they achieve immortality, or they die with at least one other party member alive who brings them back to life.

But yes, I see your point. I think my next PC is going to be very, very concerned about the afterlife or --- even worse --- what might eat his soul, despite the fact that he's not exactly a good person. Yes, I like this idea.

[bluish_wolf]

I don't believe that killing someone who attacks you without warning is considered evil. You don't have to reason with someone who is clearly unreasonable.

[TimeWizard]

I don't believe that killing someone who attacks you without warning is considered evil. You don't have to reason with someone who is clearly unreasonable.

This is true, but it's offset by the fact you entered their home for shineys.

Edit: Wait, wait... isn't this the perfect logic for those cave dwellers? Some crazies entered your home and attaced you, for your shineys and green skin? Oh god, now I feel even worse!

[Ralfarius]

They don't go to hell because the gods they (usually) worship do not disprove of the continued slaughter the player's characters produce.

[Frosty Flake]

My characters DO go to hell...

For a nice summer vacation! OH!

[Irreverent Fool]

They don't go to hell because the gods they (usually) worship do not disprove of the continued slaughter the player's characters produce.

They do, however, have a tendency from time to time to attract the attentions of inevitables for the things they've done.

[Xefas]

Well, I have a group of players that *is* very inclined to run into random caves filled with creatures that *might* be evil and kill them. Whether they're evil or not, I still count this as an evil action. The players don't really care. I've had celestials show up and tell them they're going to Hell or the Abyss if they continue to do what they do. They don't really care. I've had demons show up and actively try to steal their souls, or devils show up and bargain and/or blackmail for their souls. They don't really care.

Why would characters care where they're going? D&D cosmology has it so you always go to the place your character is best fit for. Even in Hell, after the first few agonizing <time unit>s, you become a Lemure, who then evolves poke-style into a badass devil.

My players actually *wanted* to go to Hell so they could play devils.

[Alleine]

"We're not gonna die. You wanna know why? Cuz we're just too darn pretty for God to let us die"

I know someone's going to get that reference. Anyway, They don't go to hell because by the time they can kill gods, they are probably immortal, or would ransack Hell if ever dragged in.

[Icewalker]

This is true, but it's offset by the fact you entered their home for shineys.

Well, this depends on your DM. If (IMO) your DM is bad, the adventure may amount to "go to the cave, kill the evil, get the shineys" but I think that DMs are able to create real adventures, where the plot describes every reason to kill something. The closest I think you'd get in these is something non-sentient harnessed as a weapon, or being misinformed and ending up doing the wrong thing. In the great campaign I play, I can't remember the last time we killed something at random. Usually our fights are with the BBEG party, or a single-adventure EG.

[Jarlax]

this is why i love feindish codex II. your going to hell, accept it. now sell me your soul and i will give you stuff.

the truth is your only going to hell if your lawful evil in alignment. most of the monsters that live in caves get their treasure from their victims because they are evil creatures. and killing an evil creature is not an evil act, you can argue as to if it counts as a good act or not, but that is a separate discussion.

meanwhile even though PCs topple governments, meddle in interplanar conflicts and run around messing up the multiverse you can at best describe them as chaotic which means even if they were evil. there going to the abyss, not hell.

[Guy_Whozevl]

It occured to me, and probably all of you, and probably all your friends, that PCs are goin' right to hell. How many times can you get away with slaughtering "usually chaotic evil" cave dwellers and taking their stuff? Does anyone actually attempt diplomacy anymore? By the end of one campaign PCs are practically the four horsemen. Destabalizing empires, summoning demons, deliberately meddling in extra-planar events, and even dei-i-cide. Help me ease my Jimminy Cricket... why aren't all of our beloved characters taking the express elevator down?

<obligatory Do Not Pass Go remark>
<obligatory Do Not Wig Out It's Just For Fun statement>

Here, folks is a prime example of Jack Chick's influence on the gamer population.

In all seriousness, most groups I DM consist of chaotic stupid (just plain old greedy, but willing to do some morally upright acts...for a price) and the one guy. The one guy is practically the only one who ends up roleplaying and his alignment varies from campaign to campaign. Heck, hell wouldn't even be able to stop the players with a Reverance/Rivivify combo for a 5th level spell equivalent to True Res. for like a 1/10th of the cost.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

....So you think Diplomancers are GOOD?

[SoD]

Well, if I have my characters go into a den to kill and take the shiney stuff...I give them a reason. Maybe the orcs have stolen some strong weapon. Maybe the kobolds are stealing from everyone to give stuff to their ally in the lair...the dragon. Maybe the bugbears have kidnapped the major. Maybe the goblins have been raiding a nearby town.

Even so, I like the players to roleplay for a bit.

Oh, and a question...a CN character...killing an unconcious, and tied up creature, who tried to kill the party...and is evil (not that they knew it officially)...CN? Or some sort of E? And yes, I know the whole ''1 act shouldn't change an alignment without extrenuating circumstances'' and the ''it's what the characters intentions were, not the actions'' arguments. But if the player continued to do this...?

[TimeWizard]

Here, folks is a prime example of Jack Chick's influence on the gamer population.

Yeah. After I convince everyone that we're going to hell I'll start giving bonus xp to converts.

[SilverClawShift]

How many times can you get away with slaughtering "usually chaotic evil" cave dwellers and taking their stuff? Does anyone actually attempt diplomacy anymore? By the end of one campaign PCs are practically the four horsemen.

Please don't take my comment as offensive, as I have no intention whatsoever of being rude here.

But do people really play D&D like that? I mean, do you just start as a group of classes outside a cave with "There's orcs in there. They have green skin and gold, KILL KILL KILL?". Do the PLAYERS want that? Does the DM offer up anything more?

I don't think I've ever played a session of D&D that involved wading through gore for the sake of killing things. If combat comes up, it's always for a reason, and usually a darned good one.

[psychoticbarber]

But do people really play D&D like that? I mean, do you just start as a group of classes outside a cave with "There's orcs in there. They have green skin and gold, KILL KILL KILL?". Do the PLAYERS want that? Does the DM offer up anything more?

Been there. Done that. Early adolescence is now over. Don't do it anymore.

[Seffbasilisk]

"We're not gonna die. You wanna know why? Cuz we're just too darn pretty for God to let us die"

I know someone's going to get that reference. Anyway, They don't go to hell because by the time they can kill gods, they are probably immortal, or would ransack Hell if ever dragged in.

Malcolm Reynolds. Battle of Serenity Valley.

I think the fact that the dwellers are normally C-E, and will most likely attack you the second you make your presence known sorta bypasses that. They're in the way, and the only way to get through them effectivly is to kill them. Mi apologeto, but if they came for you, they'd do the same.

[kemmotar]

Well...next time they do that call upon your powers as DM and summon a high CR dragon+ minions...give them ofc a chance to escape the much higher CR encounter...if they don't try to flee then they are unworthy of characters. Assuming they survive they will think twice about going into a cave next time. Then give them a few chances to get out the situation with diplomacy so that they will understand its worth...

If none of the PCs got then add a DMPC to the group, a bard maybe with bluff diplomacy until the can see the worth of social skills and how they can escape situations without killing the obstacle...as soon as they get it have the DMPC die or leave and your objective has been achieved.

[Tor the Fallen]

Here, folks is a prime example of Jack Chick's influence on the gamer population.

In all seriousness, most groups I DM consist of chaotic stupid (just plain old greedy, but willing to do some morally upright acts...for a price) and the one guy. The one guy is practically the only one who ends up roleplaying and his alignment varies from campaign to campaign. Heck, hell wouldn't even be able to stop the players with a Reverance/Rivivify combo for a 5th level spell equivalent to True Res. for like a 1/10th of the cost.

That sounds like lawful neutral to neutral evil, not chaotic stupid.

[Indon]

My characters DO go to hell...

For a nice summer vacation! OH!

Mine go there for a series of CR-appropriate challenges.

Here, folks is a prime example of Jack Chick's influence on the gamer population.

_We_ aren't going to an Evil afterlife... our _characters_ are, because of how the standard adventurer plays.

Really, personally I think Ayn Rand would be proud at how most D&D players (including me) play their characters.

[Swordguy]

It occured to me, and probably all of you, and probably all your friends, that PCs are goin' right to hell. How many times can you get away with slaughtering "usually chaotic evil" cave dwellers and taking their stuff? Does anyone actually attempt diplomacy anymore? By the end of one campaign PCs are practically the four horsemen. Destabalizing empires, summoning demons, deliberately meddling in extra-planar events, and even dei-i-cide. Help me ease my Jimminy Cricket... why aren't all of our beloved characters taking the express elevator down?

<obligatory Do Not Pass Go remark>
<obligatory Do Not Wig Out It's Just For Fun statement>

<Obligatory Your Morality is NOT in any way the Morality of the D&D universe comment.>

Killing Evil-aligned creature is an inherently Good act, regardless of thier age or intentions. You can slaughter a village full of Orc babies all the live-long day and, as per the alignment rules it's a Good Act. D&D is based on Absolute Morality. That's the way the rules work. Don't like it? Go away and play something else.

...GOD I'm sick of this debate...

[Lord Tataraus]

Does it matter? Does it really matter???? Come on, the game is to have fun, not question the morality of your characters deeds compared to the real world!! Stop with all the alignment questioning already! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!
*huffhuffhuffhuff*
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[this post intentionally left blank]

[NecroRebel]

<Obligatory Your Morality is NOT in any way the Morality of the D&D universe comment.>

Killing Evil-aligned creature is an inherently Good act, regardless of thier age or intentions. You can slaughter a village full of Orc babies all the live-long day and, as per the alignment rules it's a Good Act. D&D is based on Absolute Morality. That's the way the rules work. Don't like it? Go away and play something else.

...GOD I'm sick of this debate...

Incidentally, you're wrong. The definition of "Good" has NOTHING about opposing Evil, or about killing Evil, or about doing a damned thing to an Evil creature. You are good if and only if you make personal sacrifices for others and display altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Incidentally, slaughtering a village full of Orc babies (who, mind you, are sentient beings) means utterly disrespecting the lives and dignity of those Orc Babies. Ergo, it does not, in any way, shape, or form, resemble a Good act by the way the rules work. In fact, it happens to fit the criteria for an Evil act (namely hurting and killing others).

Mind you, if an Orc village has been attacking and raiding and raping and pillaging, getting them to stop doing these things isn't an Evil act. You're attempting to uphold the dignity and lives of those the Orcs are harming, and sacrificing your time and possibly life to do it. If the Orcs refuse to stop, it may become necessary to hurt them. If they attack you, defending yourself isn't Evil, even if you do it with deadly force.

[Dausuul]

<Obligatory Your Morality is NOT in any way the Morality of the D&D universe comment.>

Killing Evil-aligned creature is an inherently Good act, regardless of thier age or intentions. You can slaughter a village full of Orc babies all the live-long day and, as per the alignment rules it's a Good Act. D&D is based on Absolute Morality. That's the way the rules work. Don't like it? Go away and play something else.

No, it's not how the rules work. Show me where it says it's a Good act (not just non-Evil, but actually Good) to kill Evil creatures.

The rules that determine alignment are in fact quite fuzzy. Which would be fine if the rules that depend on alignment weren't so important.

[Swordguy]

[pimp] Book of Exalted Deeds,[Scrubbed]
Than come crying back, saying, "but...but...it's a splatbook! It doesn't count!"

To which I respond, "It's a rule in a book published by WOTC to clarify exactly what an "exalted deed" might be. That makes it official. Don't use it if you want, [Scrubbed]

[Dausuul]

[pimp] Book of Exalted Deeds,[Scrubbed]
Than come crying back, saying, "but...but...it's a splatbook! It doesn't count!"

To which I respond, "It's a rule in a book published by WOTC to clarify exactly what an "exalted deed" might be. That makes it official. Don't use it if you want, [Scrubbed]

As I recall, it was linked by someone making the claim you did. Then several other people actually went and looked in the book and discovered that what it really says is it's never an Evil act to kill an Evil outsider.

Give me an exact, word-for-word quote supporting your position, sourced to a published WotC rulebook with the page number (and yes, the BoED counts), and I'll concede the point. I'll continue to say it's a stupid rule, but I'll concede that it is a rule.

[Headless_Ninja]

"We're not gonna die. You wanna know why? Cuz we're just too darn pretty for God to let us die"

Firefly!

Anyway, well, many of my characters believe that they won't die, or are trying very hard not to... So hell doesn't come into it. Some of them, of course, will burn blah blah blah. Point is, I let the characters worry - I don't worry overly out of character. Sometimes it's fun to see a character you know is a jerk be punished, even if it's your fault.