4e General Discussion

[Mr. Friendly]

I have to admit, when I first heard about 4e I began the 5 stages of grief.

Denial: No, no... Wizards won't release 4e anytime soon!

Anger: This is BS! I wasted so much cash on 3.5 books!

Bargaining: I'll play it if they have some sort of rebate program or the ability to convert 3.5 to 4.0 easily.

Depression: Screw it. When 4e comes out I think I am just giving up on D&D entirely. What's the point?

At last I have arrived at Acceptance: Well, it's going to happen and some of the changes sound a bit exciting.

At any rate I have been reading over a lot of the material this morning and while I cannot say I am entirely pleased with it, a lot of the changes do sound good and will speed up gameplay and overall enjoyment.

So I was hoping to have a general discussion on 4e, what do we know, handy links for some of the more obscure sites that require a high google-fu rating, as well as general opinions, flames, praises or whatever.

For me, I am not quite sure what it was that I read that changed my mind, maybe it was just the overall effect. I suppose in the back of mind I have known for a while something wasn't right with 3.5 and this seems to be on the track to fixing it.

[Artemician]

Other than what you have posted, all other general discussion about 4E can be summed in one post.

It's in my signature, but here you go anyway.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I'd wait. I'm optimistic, but we only have official gossip for now, and it be not good. Heck, if you wanna now why I want to wait for facts, it's because I was there when WotC released Magic: The Gathering expansion Homelands. It was the worst expansion ever, but they made it look like the best. So wait till we can do number crunching, and THEN, decide on 4e.

[Mr. Friendly]

Something I am wondering about is what the event will be in Faerun. 1e to 2e was the Time of Troubles, and this looks to be an aeven greater overhauling than ever before.

[Xefas]

1b followed by 3 followed by 5

Anyway, I spent a boatload of money on 3.5 books (and some 3.0), because I DM a lot. However, if 4e turns out to be good, I'm hoping I can just buy one or two, and then be a player for once =/

Also, I'm hoping there'll at least be some semblance of Tome of Battle left, 'cause I love me some maneuverin'

[Mr. Friendly]

It sounds like, form what I have read, that they are incorporating ToB maneuver elements into all the classes.

[Matthew]

Something I am wondering about is what the event will be in Faerun. 1e to 2e was the Time of Troubles, and this looks to be an aeven greater overhauling than ever before.

Haven't you heard? Faerun's time line has jumped forward one hundred years or so and a magical plague has swept the world. The fans have been up in arms and even Greenwood has been less than enthusiastic about this new direction.

[Mr. Friendly]

What makes that so hilarious is that I am currently running an FR campaign and the players keep failing to stop the bad guys, who eventually are unleashing a magical plague...

[Matthew]

Heh. Apparently, one of the things that sticks in the craw of a lot of fans is that there are some 'peace loving farmer Orcs' in the north.

[Mr. Friendly]

Heh. Apparently, one of the things that sticks in the craw of a lot of fans is that there are some 'peace loving farmer Orcs' in the north.

That makes sense though. Honestly I have had various humanoid communities from time to time that were just peace loving simple farmers and the like. Have done that since 1e. It just makes sense that it would have to happen sometimes.

[SoD]

Good, if humans can be farmers, why not orcs?

[Dode]

Because Only Humans Eat Food You Stupid-

[psychoticbarber]

#5!

Well, mostly. Bits of #4, though I understand how important some of the stuff I don't like is to other people.

I hope it stays good through my first reading!

[Artemician]

Personally, I'm a "Bargaining" person myself, who goes with #3 and #5.

Heh. I love that post. Makes discussion about 4E so much simpler and less flame-baitory.

[KIDS]

Yesssir, from the very first second I thought that 3.5 was (as of, right now) a fairly good system with most of its mistakes covered up and a positive trend firmly set, and am optimistic about 4E. Whether I will buy and play it, I don't know, but I look forward to good things.

[Matthew]

That makes sense though. Honestly I have had various humanoid communities from time to time that were just peace loving simple farmers and the like. Have done that since 1e. It just makes sense that it would have to happen sometimes.

Good, if humans can be farmers, why not orcs?

Hey, I never gave judgement it one way or another. what I am saying is that many Forgotten Realms fans feel that it is inappropriate for the Campaign Setting. If you want my opinion, then I will say that I actually do agree with them, but that's tied directly to my conception of Orcs. If the only difference between Humans and Orcs is that they look different, then there's no reason they shouldn't be farmers, but I don't subscribe to the 'Humans in funny suits' view of the various humanoid races. I've no problem with people who like that view, it just isn't for me and, presumably, those who dislike this change to the Realms share that particular preference.

[Mr. Friendly]

Hey, I never judged it one way or another. However, many Forgotten Realms fans feel that it is inappropriate for the Campaign Setting. If you want my opinion, then I will say that I actually do agree with them, but that's tied directly to my conception of Orcs. If the only difference between Humans and Orcs is that they look different, then there's no reason they shouldn't be farmers, but I don't subscribe to the 'Humans in funny suits' view of the various humanoid races. I've no beef with people who like that view, it just isn't for me and, presumably, those who dislike this change to the Realms share that particular preference.

No, I do understand and while I think the majority of Orcs should in fact be their usual bloodthirsty selves, I see no reason why *some* orcs might choose to do something else.

After all, in FR canon, pre-3e even, orcs were used as slave labor farmers by drow and mind flayers. No reason to think a group of them might have taken those skills with them after rebelling/escaping.

[Matthew]

No, I do understand and while I think the majority of Orcs should in fact be their usual bloodthirsty selves, I see no reason why *some* orcs might choose to do something else.

After all, in FR canon, pre-3e even, orcs were used as slave labor farmers by drow and mind flayers. No reason to think a group of them might have taken those skills with them after rebelling/escaping.

Well, that's to understand them in human terms. There's certainly no reason to suppose it could not happen, but I prefer to think that Orcs would return to their inherently evil nature and habits as a matter of course, rather than use any of the skills they were forced to acquire as slaves. As I say, though, that's just my preference with regard to how I want Orcs to be.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Hey, the d20 Modern book had a picture of a Gnoll Pimp, so I'm all for Orc Farmers, just on that long stretch of logic.

I'm still at #6.

[Matthew]

That would be Urban Arcana, I think?

[leperkhaun]

Ill get the PHB when it comes out. if i like it, ill get the MM and the DMG. After that who knows.

the only thing that pisses me off, is why the are realeasing those three books at 1 a month.

[Kurald Galain]

the only thing that pisses me off, is why the are realeasing those three books at 1 a month.

Why does that piss you off? It makes perfect sense to do it that way. People are more likely to buy the DMG if they have the PHB already, and less likely to buy an expensive three-books-together package.

[Rex Blunder]

Also, I think that's standard practice, although in 1e the books came out a year apart! Must have been a rough year with just the PHB and some OD&D books.

Of course, RPGers back then were hardier stock, more able to make their own rules decisions, uphill both ways, etc...

[horseboy]

I'd wait. I'm optimistic, but we only have official gossip for now, and it be not good. Heck, if you wanna now why I want to wait for facts, it's because I was there when WotC released Magic: The Gathering expansion Homelands. It was the worst expansion ever, but they made it look like the best. So wait till we can do number crunching, and THEN, decide on 4e.

Homelands still wasn't as bad as The Dark. woo, I got a +0/+2 shield for my rare.

I'd be more interested in 4th if they posted an example of competent play testing.

[hamlet]

Also, I think that's standard practice, although in 1e the books came out a year apart! Must have been a rough year with just the PHB and some OD&D books.

Of course, RPGers back then were hardier stock, more able to make their own rules decisions, uphill both ways, etc...

Forgot outdoor plumbing.

Typically, the 1 a month release schedule is done for a number of reasons.

1) Lowers the price for the "on-the-fence" shopper who doesn't know for sure if they want it or not rather than soaking them for $150 right up front.

2) Helps out the distributors and FLGS's by decreasing the amount of junk they have to put up on their shelves. Yes, this is an actual concern since not everybody plays nothing but what the WOTC masters tell us to.

3) Cuts down on printing costs to print three smaller runs than one huge one.

4) Cuts down on shipping costs.

4) Whets the appetites of the fanboys who are, even now, drooling on their keyboards.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I also recall that third edition books came out once a month, so the 4e books coming out one a month is no real surprise. Last time it was PHB, DMG, then finally MM. This time it's PHB, MM, then finally DMG. It's a switcheroo!!!

[Hadrian_Emrys]

That actually is an expressed concern of mine as well. When the play testers are bypassing encounters instead of putting their characters through the hell spawned stress test they were made for... Well I have my doubts that they are going to do much better this time around in terms of balance. What really WOULD ease my mind though, is if they nabbed folks like Logic, Fax, and Vorpal as well as a few good folks at the TheoCharOp area of the WotC site and had them look over everything/playtest for a few months.

[Fax Celestis]

That actually is an expressed concern of mine as well. When the play testers are bypassing encounters instead of putting their characters through the hell spawned stress test they were made for... Well I have my doubts that they are going to do much better this time around in terms of balance. What really WOULD ease my mind though, is if they nabbed folks like Logic, Fax, and Vorpal as well as a few good folks at the TheoCharOp area of the WotC site and had them look over everything/playtest for a few months.

They did that for the Rules Compendium. I dunno if they'll do that for later material.

Also, chances of myself being picked for such an endeavor are slim-to-none due to my complete lack of presence on the WotC fora. I spend all my forum-time here. Others, such as the departed BwL, VT, and a few others from this form do have larger presences on the WotC fora.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

:"The sky's the limit ears."

[Charity]

*stuff*
3) Cuts down on printing costs to print three smaller runs than one huge one.

4) Cuts down on shipping costs.

No it doesn't work this way, per unit print costs and carriage are reduced in bulk not increased.

Sorry but this is plain ole not the case.