OOTS #1177 - The Discussion Thread

[Goblin_Priest]

Yes, this looks like a way to mirror, this transition.

I like how we cut to and back to the gods through their devices to observe the world, Hel's basin does that a lot too.

EDIT:


A verb cannot mean "something that is X" that is an adjective or a noun. In order for "clichéd" to mean "something filledwith clichés", "to cliché" would need to mean "filling something with clichés".

Like the verb "to murder", which means the act of committing a murder?

[The MunchKING]

What a nice functional family. XD

What's the black sphere though?

Portal to/actually Helheim was how I read it. Loki's leaving Hel's domain and that's why he's coming out of the circle.

I’m interested to hear Loki describe himself as having half a billion people who think he’s incapable of telling the truth. That’s a lot of people! Bigger than I had thought for the whole OOTS world, though it’s certainly possible that Loki was exaggerating to make a point.

That whole "Incapable of telling the truth" thing.

In the beginning, there was a cow and a salt lick.
The salt, saliva, and warm breath from the cow gave rise to the gods, and to all the worlds.

Simple. (and stop looking at that cow!)

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm… Cosmic Burgers!!

*"Clichéd"? Is cliché an English verb now?

Adjective?

I mean it is modifying "world" after all.

[Fyraltari]

"Cliché" is used as a noun in English.

As it is in French.

[The_Weirdo]

As it is in French.

{scrubbed}

[Fyraltari]

There is some evidence that English should be classified as a creole language — that is, one formed by the co-mingling of two or more languages through close contact, borrowing the lexicon of both and simplifying the grammar as it goes. It has many of the hallmarks of other languages formed in this way. It’s not completely convincing, based on what we know of modern creole languages (not much).

The idea of “verbing” a non-verb comes from the ability in English to freely change a word’s part of speech without necessarily marking it. Normally we do this with Latin suffixes, like -al (noun to adj), -ness (adj to n), -ment (v to n). Sometimes we do it with stress (proJECT vs PROject). Other times we just say, “Meh, screw it, it’s a verb now.”

Like the verb "to murder", which means the act of committing a murder?

Interesting. I had never thought of English as being a creole language but it does make sense.

Portal to/actually Helheim was how I read it. Loki's leaving Hel's domain and that's why he's coming out of the circle.

Looks like the Neutral Evil Plane.

Adjective?

I mean it is modifying "world" after all.

Then where did the "d" come from? Because this looks a lot like a past participle acting as an adjective as in "rented room" for example.

[Jasdoif]

Then where did the "d" come from? Because this looks a lot like a past participle acting as an adjective as in "rented room" for example.

The use of an "-ed" suffix to treat a noun as an adjective isn't uncommon. Given that English's stance on word rules can be described as "Rules? There are no rules. There's barely any strategy!", I can't tell you if that's the direct form of the convention, if that's a shorthand for assuming any noun has an identically named verb equivalent, or whether the former is actually the latter.

[Fish]

A verb cannot mean "something that is X" that is an adjective or a noun. In order for "clichéd" to mean "something filledwith clichés", "to cliché" would need to mean "filling something with clichés".

Not necessarily. It is not unusual, at least in English, to find orphaned (or “defective”) verb forms, which only appear in one sense or syntactic context and in no other. The word “beware” only appears in infinitive or imperative form; it has no conjugated forms at all, such as isware*, wasware*, amware*, bewares*, bewared*, bewaring*, etc. Similar restrictions exist for “begone.” The verb “quoth” has no present-tense form; modal auxiliary verbs (can, could, may, might) have no infinitive form. English has no problem freely converting most nouns into verbs and then adding verb suffixes. One could say “I lightsabered the enemy” and there would be no grammatical objection to the non-existence of “to lightsaber” as a verb.

One could say that by adding the -(e)d to a noun, the noun-to-verb conversion is implied.

* Linguists mark non-grammatical and non-word forms with an asterisk.

[tigerusthegreat]

[Aetius]

"Who knew she had that much hustle?" Hel, the Nale that Tarquin always said he wanted (but probably didn't.)

I don't have anything to say about that line.
Just thought it needed quoting.

I’m interested to hear Loki describe himself as having half a billion people who think he’s incapable of telling the truth. That’s a lot of people! Bigger than I had thought for the whole OOTS world, though it’s certainly possible that Loki was exaggerating to make a point.

Well, you know who count's as people these days?

We're talking believe now - not worship or dedication. So this number probably includes everyone who is a creature with intelligence high enough to be self conscious, knows that Loki exists and that he is not a very honest person. I doesn't need to be a member of a major race ot even humanoid, it doesn't need to have any connection to the northern pantheon.
If that's true half a billion doesn't seem that far fetched.

That whole "Incapable of telling the truth" thing.

Except he said it to Thor whom he can be honest wit.

It is unsettling how Loki refers to the world as belonging in the trash. For one of the creators of a world to think so little of it, of all the people living there, is callous in a way that neither Xykon nor the Snarl manages to achieve.

I still think when it comes to callousness Xykon takes the cake.
The only reason that Lych cares about the world is because it's where he keeps his stuff. Loki doesn't.
Let's see Loki thinking about destroying the outer planes once he get's really bored, then we'll talk.

"Honesty" is a broader concept than "not lying." If Loki tells the truth in the cause of trickery, he is still not being honest. Walking back in there and laying his cards on the table and coming clean requires more than just not lying, it requires total honesty. And thus he cannot do it.

Oh the irony!
Can't help but feel reminded of this.

[Schroeswald]

"Rules? There are no rules. There's barely any strategy!"

In fact the most famous rule in english language is wrong most of the time, because english is Chaotic Evil.

[Fyraltari]

snip

snip

snip

You are all rotters and I hate you.

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{scrubbed}

[Fish]

I have a bachelor’s degree in linguistics. You need anybody to talk your ear off about weird things in English, or in other languages, I’m your ... uh ... fish.

[Fyraltari]

I have a bachelor’s degree in linguistics. You need anybody to talk your ear off about weird things in English, or in other languages, I’m your ... uh ... fish.

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.

[The MunchKING]

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.

Or Apples for that matter.

[Peelee]

Portal to/actually Helheim was how I read it.

I keep seeing this and I keep thinking it's a MCU reference or something. Isn't it just Hel in OotS? Hel lives in Hel? Or has that not been established and I don't know what I'm talking about?

[Fyraltari]

I keep seeing this and I keep thinking it's a MCU reference or something. Isn't it just Hel in OotS? Hel lives in Hel? Or has that not been established and I don't know what I'm talking about?

Helheim is often used across media to refers to Hel's domain (I think that is its litteral meaning) to avoid confusion. But yes, OOTS only calls it Hel and makes a couple joke about that.

[The_Weirdo]

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.

Abacaxi in (Brazilian) Portuguese.

[Fish]

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.

Of course they do. They look like pineapples — that is, the “apples” (or seed-filled fruit) of the pine tree. The real question is why anyone thought a seed cone from a pine, a spiky inedible ball of woody petals, should be compared to an apple in the first place.

[Jasdoif]

I have a bachelor’s degree in linguistics. You need anybody to talk your ear off about weird things in English, or in other languages, I’m your ... uh ... fish.

What's the deal with Esperanto? My first conscious exposure to the words "Esperanto" and "cliché" were (different) episodes* of Tiny Toon Adventures back in the 90s, so this isn't entirely random....


* The direct-to-video How I Spent My Summer Vacation was split into episode-length pieces for airing during a later season, so I think it counts.

[The_Weirdo]

What's the deal with Esperanto? My first conscious exposure to the words "Esperanto" and "cliché" were (different) episodes* of Tiny Toon Adventures back in the 90s, so this isn't entirely random....


* The direct-to-video How I Spent My Summer Vacation was split into episode-length pieces for airing during a later season, so I think it counts.

Esperanto is a well-intentioned, but misguided approach to linguistics and politics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Basically the entire world: This looks like it should be called "ananas".
English: "Pineapple it is, then."

I mean, what the ****, English? They have nothing to do with pine trees.

You’re blaming the wrong country there, I suspect. It’s also called pine in Spanish, probably because it kinda looks like a massive pinecone. English probably stole it from them, since they were first on the scene.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Abacaxi in (Brazilian) Portuguese.

Oh no, I was deceived!

Of course they do. They look like pineapples — that is, the “apples” (or seed-filled fruit) of the pine tree. The real question is why anyone thought a seed cone from a pine, a spiky inedible ball of woody petals, should be compared to an apple in the first place.

Spitballing here, but maybe apple used to mean fruit before narrowing to one general fruit, like our own "pomme" used to?

[Thecommander236]

Except we know the answer to the chicken and the egg. The egg predated avian life by millions of years, and beyond that, the chicken as we know it is a domesticated form of the red junglefowl of Southeast Asia. At some point, an almost-chicken junglefowl laid an egg with what we would consider a chicken in it.

In a similar way, the fact that the gods are the way they are now does not preclude them having existed in some other form in the past—one that we might not have thought of as "gods." It's just that the mechanism for change isn't reproduction and evolution. Or rather, it's memetic evolution, not genetic.

EDIT: I also think you're forgetting that the gods originated "from beyond the chaos." Their initial creation and/or ascension would involve how things work in that other place, wherever that might be, and has little bearing on the story.

Meaning, the moment they become gods and gained a quiddity, they became reliant on belief. What form they existed as previously doesn't much matter as they weren't gods. Whether they just popped into existence, ascended from preexisting energy or creatures, or just wandered into a place of existence where they gained infinite for the price of needing beliefs to survive there, they are there in OotS universe. The moment the OotS universe formed, its laws of physics determined 3 things: 1. gods have form and thought, 2. gods have one quiddity, 3. gods feed on and mutate based on the beliefs of multiple quiddity beings.

[Fish]

Linguists look down on constructed languages like Esperanto and Klingon and Quenya, for what reason I’m not positive. I guess the thinking is that we hope to learn about the human brain by studying the way we learn, store, and utilize language; and non-natural languages (the thinking goes) don’t reveal anything except what we consciously put there.

Shame that Esperanto hasn’t really taken off. It had a lot of promise, as a concept: a universal language that’s easy to learn.

Spitballing here, but maybe apple used to mean fruit before narrowing to one general fruit, like our own "pomme" used to?

Good call. Etymology Online says that it did used to mean generic fruit, just as pomme in French, and in the original Latin root. It’s a little like the word “corn” in that respect.

[The_Weirdo]

Oh no, I was deceived!

Well, it seems to be ananás in Portugal Portuguese.

Linguists look down on constructed languages like Esperanto and Klingon and Quenya, for what reason I’m not positive. I guess the thinking is that we hope to learn about the human brain by studying the way we learn, store, and utilize language; and non-natural languages (the thinking goes) don’t reveal anything except what we consciously put there.

Shame that Esperanto hasn’t really taken off. It had a lot of promise, as a concept: a universal language that’s easy to learn.

Okay, look, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie, but I did graduate in Language and Literature here, so this time we can have a decentish conversation.

The "looking down" thing goes through part of what you described for the thinking, sure. But aside from that, it's not easy to learn for everyone (nor could it easily be). Likewise, the most likely language to become the world's lingua franca depends on the power dynamics of the time. Unless there was some sort of a world push to make everyone learn Esperanto - or any language whatsoever - it is never going to work as intended. So that's the "beef", insofar as I even think about it, I personally have with esperanto.

To be sure, studying how constructed languages operate, within the brain and outside it, would be a very good field day for any linguist; if they feel it's unnecessary to do so, they are being willfully ignorant.

[understatement]

Why is it hind and hinder?

Also, wow, Loki's really not pulling any punches. I love his borderline anti-villain getup.

[Fyraltari]

You’re blaming the wrong country there, I suspect. It’s also called pine in Spanish, probably because it kinda looks like a massive pinecone. English probably stole it from them, since they were first on the scene.

Grey Wolf

The English don't even make their own mistakes, they steal them from others. How typical.

Shame that Esperanto hasn’t really taken off. It had a lot of promise, as a concept: a universal language that’s easy to learn.

Shame indeed. Though, having read my grandmother's beginner's guide to esperanto (not the actual title) I can say with confidence that it is far too europeocentric to be easy to learn for everyone.

Good call. Etymology Online says that it did used to mean generic fruit, just as pomme in French, and in the original Latin root. It’s a little like the word “corn” in that respect.

Yay!

Okay, look, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie

Say, my Doctor Who marathon reached Ghost Light so I've got to ask, are you quoting Seven are you both quoting somebody else?

[The MunchKING]

I keep seeing this and I keep thinking it's a MCU reference or something.

In Scion, a lot of the Aesir planes have Hiem after the important people's name. I think it means "home". Like Jotunheim is where the Jotun live, Helhiem is where Hel lives.

Isn't it just Hel in OotS? Hel lives in Hel? Or has that not been established and I don't know what I'm talking about?

I thought the devils lived in Hell and stole Hel's name to co-opt the branding, but I don't think it was established she lives there.

I can't find the strip where they say that right now but I'm looking.

[Schroeswald]

Why is it hind and hinder?

Also, wow, Loki's really not pulling any punches. I love his borderline anti-villain getup.

I should be helping slam down this cliched world in the trash where it belongs

Very anti-villain.

[The_Weirdo]

Say, my Doctor Who marathon reached Ghost Light so I've got to ask, are you quoting Seven are you both quoting somebody else?

I'm quoting him. I so wish I could find a video excerpt of the part where he says it.