So, I know the it's the DM's choice, but what if he is just wrong?

[Iamdead7]

Such as tonight. Druid wants to make a ranged touch attack. Doesn't know how.

Being as weird as I am (I have the ability to memorize stuff pretty quickly, hence me knowing most of the rules of D&D pretty thoroughly)

I tell them, BAB and Dex. The Druid was like "shouldn't it be wisdom?" (not sure if he was really asking or just trying to get in the extra attack point)

DM agrees, which is totally wrong. I mean, do I use Wisdom to shoot a bow?

I know it's DM's choice, and I usually accept that, but when the DM starts turning the rules upside down, how do I convince them to go with what the rules say instead of taking the cheap way out?

[Saithis Bladewing]

It's BAB and Dex...unless you have a specific feat, that never changes. What is your DM on?

Personally I'd just tell him up front that he's wrong and should probably follow the rules for the sake of all players involved, exceptions to the rule should be stated well beforehand.

[kpenguin]

Sounds like the DM I'm working with, who ruled that lullaby creates a widespread sleep effect despite being only a level 0 spell. He's okay now, since I threatened to leave the campaign and, being the only experienced player there, that would be disastrous to his game.

Try explaining why he's wrong and if that doesn't work, threaten to leave.

[Ralfarius]

Open the book up to the rules for ranged touch attack, slam it down on the able, and shriek OBJECTION! at the top of your lungs. Read, quite succinctly, the rules for ranged touch attacks. Afterward, grab the heads of the DM and other player and clonk 'em together like a pair of coconuts.

Or, just mention it casually and then let it go.

[triforcel]

It's bound to happen on occasion, but try pointing out that the books claim differently. Sure he might prefer ranged touch attacks to use wisdom bonus, but more than likely it's just a mistake. Unless he's an a$$, pointing this out in a reasonable manner shouldn't cause an issue.

[Iamdead7]

I would have done that, but the rest of the party is against me (If it benefits them, they'll do it, even if it is wrong)

I tried to explain to the DM, but he just said "Why would you use Dex to throw a fireball at someone (spell was produce flame). You use wisdom to control the spell"

I tried explaining to him that dex was needed anyway, but he cut me off and went back to the fight.

Whenever he says something the rules don't, he just says DM's choice and moves on, and the rest of the party goes with him (it always benefits us)

I'm the only one who doesn't like this. Mostly because I'm the only one who actually enjoys roleplaying at all, and apparently, following rules.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I mean, do I use Wisdom to shoot a bow?

Depends. Do you have the Zen Archery feat?

[Nowhere Girl]

I'd find it a little silly, but what the hell? If the DM wants to houserule that, okay. Whatever.

The only thing I'd do is if I'd built my character on the assumption that Dex was used for ranged touch attacks, ask, "Okay, since you're houseruling this way, do you mind if I adjust my stats accordingly, given I arranged them based on the rules as written?"

If the DM said, "Sure," I think I'd kind of go, "Okay, thanks," and be done with it.

If not, now, I'd be angry. Because them the DM is basically using houserules to arbitrarily gimp your character, which is obnoxious.

[triforcel]

If that's how he likes to DM then there's not much you can do about it. Try talking to him outside of the gaming session so that you're not interupting the flow of combat. Failing that then you're probably better off finding a different gaming group. If you can't (I know that it's hard for me to even get a party together for a session, let alone a campaign) then you might want to stop playing for a while. The main point of playing is to have fun, if you're not having fun then don't play.

[Nelphine]

Talk to the DM after the session. Sometimes there are good reasons for making on the spot houserules that are blatantly contradictory to the book.

If none of the other players are particularly up to date on the rules, then often they won't be all that proficient at combat, simply because they don't choose effective skills, feats or stats for their character.

The DM in this case can allow a different stat simply because even if it's 'wrong', it at least gives the character a better chance at doing something useful. It's all well and good to say 'BAB and dex' but if the player when they built their character didn't know anything about the combat system and went 'ooo let's have someone who falls down a lot - Dex 4!' then that character isn't going to do much in combat, which becomes no fun for the player, and tends to annoy the other characters simply due to their inefficiency in combat. But the low dex is fun outside of combat so instead of penalizing the character, allowing him to use a different stat gives the character a unique flavor; allowing him to be fun out of combat, and yet still be fun in a roleplaying sense.

Anyway, that was long. Real point is, there can be good reasons, and as long as you all have fun, it's all good. My suggestion is if he's doing it to benefit the party, don't worry too much about it; he's probably inadvertantly balancing the game and giving everyone the chance to be successful at their tasks, so that no one is left out regardless of the situation.

[Dervag]

If, on the other hand, he's just pulling rules out of his *ahem* hat, and applying them to the PCs apparently at random for whatever reason seems fitting at the time ("You use wisdom to control the spell!" when many casters are clearly able to deliver devastating spells even with extremely low wisdom), you have a problem. In that case, I suspect things will get worse rather than better over time if you can't talk him out of it.

Does this DM have an autocratic temperment?

[Kurald Galain]

Talk to the DM after the session. Sometimes there are good reasons for making on the spot houserules that are blatantly contradictory to the book.

Precisely.

In-game, just roll with it; it's only a few pips of difference on a d20, anyway. Then after the game, tell him in private that you've looked it up and it should actually be dex, and try to phrase this in a tactful way rather than coming across as "you're a bad dm".

[Dode]

Eh, suck it up I say.

The more you guys play, the better acquainted everyone willl become with the rules of the game. Polite and courteous might not give you the immediate gratification over ranged attack rolls, but it'll serve you better then being an obtuse prat over a simple game rule.

[Zincorium]

Eh, I'm going to have to disagree you on the 'ignore it' idea. From personal experience, I'd say that not bringing up rules misapplications or oversights gets worse the less is done about it.

Because what if next game, you use ranged attack rolls, use dex because that's what the book says to use, and get called a cheater by the other players because they still don't know any better?

Bring it up after the game. Tell the DM that changing basic rules, unless the DM is doing it intentionally to fix a problem, just messes up people who already know the old way of doing it. Barring a change back, have them write it down somewhere so you have some way of referring to it.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Well, the way the DM worded it, it actually makes sense. I mean, if WIS is used to control the spell, it would make sense that WIS is used to move it around. Just keep in mind though, the casters don't need to be anymore broken. If your DM says casters aren't broken, send him here!

However, if the DM says that WIS applies on ranged attacks, call your objection. That requrires a pretty good feat to do called Zen Archery.

[Kurald Galain]

However, if the DM says that WIS applies on ranged attacks, call your objection. That requrires a pretty good feat to do called Zen Archery.

By the way, speaking as someone who has actually tried zen archery, that feat is entirely not what it means. It's just a nonsensical shift in the score used, with a funny label tacked on. Personally I would disallow it on grounds that it doesn't actually make any sense.

[Serpentine]

Sorry, not on the OP's topic (I think that's been pretty comprehensively covered). But briefly on Zen Archery, I think it makes sense in a "Luke Skywalker Use The Force" kind of a way.

[Iamdead7]

I did tell everyone casters are broken repeatedly.

I threatened to Time Stop/Force Cage/Cloudkill them all a lot. (we were level 2 though >_>).

Some times it might make sense to use wisdom to control the spell, but the rules for the spell say it is thrown. Hence Dex + BAB.

I'll tell him that I don't mind house rules, but stop going directly against the rules right in the middle of battle, even it is for us. (I've never felt threatened once in any of his adventures, so this makes it even worse, the constant house rules for us)

[Solo]

I did tell everyone casters are broken repeatedly.

I threatened to Time Stop/Force Cage/Cloudkill them all a lot. (we were level 2 though >_>).

You don't know the half of it.

At the level you'd be casting Time Stop, the Time Stop/Force Cage/Cloudkill is very, very weak.

[Yahzi]

I know it's DM's choice, and I usually accept that, but when the DM starts turning the rules upside down, how do I convince them to go with what the rules say instead of taking the cheap way out?

The DM can never be wrong.

He can only be inconsistent. Which is bad, because it's unfair: it can't be a cooperative story-telling exercise if the rules change unpredictably.

If the rules of the DM's world are such that WIS grants a touch attack bonus, then it should always grant a touch attack bonus. Chances are the DM is going to find that rule makes his world really hard to tell stories in. That's what you should tell him - "Do you really want this to always be the case?"

[Kurald Galain]

Sorry, not on the OP's topic (I think that's been pretty comprehensively covered). But briefly on Zen Archery, I think it makes sense in a "Luke Skywalker Use The Force" kind of a way.

In D&D, that's actually charisma, not wisdom.

[Ganon11]

I dunno, I think in that particular case, it makes sense. If you're doddering old wizard who can barely walk, let alone throw a ranged weapon to save your life (read: low DEX score), you can still 'throw' a fireball at your enemies. Maybe it would make sense that, in the specific case of making ranged touch attacks with spells, spellcasters could use their primary ability bonus (that is, Wizards use INT, Sorcerers use CHA, etc.).

Dunno if that's broken or not, but I'm no power-gamer.

[Pronounceable]

This sounds like my kind of DM. Keep the game going, don't slow the flow for rules, enforce Golden Rule... These are the signs of a good DM.

Yahzi is right. The DM can't be wrong. At worst, he can be inconsistent, but never wrong. Being right comes with the job. Inconsistency is bad, but it's not the end of the world.

And he's ruling in your favor, so he's a benevolent DM. But it seems he's TOO benevolent since you say you never feel threatened. Maybe you should mention this fact to him?

Lighten up. Unless DM is screwing you over with inconsistency and random houserules, it's all fun and games.

[Serpentine]

In D&D, that's actually charisma, not wisdom.

How do you figure? I was thinking in the sense of putting on a blindfold and having to stop getting zapped that way. I'd call that more Wisdom than Charisma.

[Starsinger]

I know it's DM's choice, and I usually accept that, but when the DM starts turning the rules upside down, how do I convince them to go with what the rules say instead of taking the cheap way out?

Does this rule work to everyone's advantage equally? I mean.. does everyone now use Wisdom for ranged attacks, or their casting stat? Because if so, then it's not so bad.. Although with touch ACs already being low, and dex being a secondary/tertiary stat for casters, you'll rue the day you guys encounter an enemy blaster and/or warmage..

By the way, speaking as someone who has actually tried zen archery, that feat is entirely not what it means. It's just a nonsensical shift in the score used, with a funny label tacked on. Personally I would disallow it on grounds that it doesn't actually make any sense.

You use your one-ness with the everything and nothing of the universe to guide your arrow instead of your ability to pick locks and do backflips.. or somethin' hand wavey and mumbo jumbo filled.

In D&D, that's actually charisma, not wisdom.

I'd love a Charisma to archery feat, I tend to play elven sorcerers...

[Drider]

How do you figure? I was thinking in the sense of putting on a blindfold and having to stop getting zapped that way. I'd call that more Wisdom than Charisma.

Jedi are just sorcerors with command, lightning bolt, and telekenesis. and some levels in fighter with glowy swords.

[Jayabalard]

Eh, suck it up I say.

The more you guys play, the better acquainted everyone willl become with the rules of the game. Polite and courteous might not give you the immediate gratification over ranged attack rolls, but it'll serve you better then being an obtuse prat over a simple game rule.

agree 100%

there's nothing to be gained by arguing over a ruling like that.

[Starbuck_II]

Eh, suck it up I say.

The more you guys play, the better acquainted everyone willl become with the rules of the game. Polite and courteous might not give you the immediate gratification over ranged attack rolls, but it'll serve you better then being an obtuse prat over a simple game rule.

No, everyone will believe in false rules so when they go to another game (later in life they might not be with same DM): they will horrified that all the rules they learned are houserules so become worse players. Forgetting stuf you learn is harder than learning new things.

Just like education system: it fine to tell someone your personal belief (if a teacher does), but he should make it clear that it is a houserule.

[Jayabalard]

No, everyone will believe in false rules so when they go to another game (later in life they might not be with same DM): they will horrified that all the rules they learned are houserules so become worse players. Forgetting stuf you learn is harder than learning new things.

Rules, houserules, it's not all that important; D&D is much more than that. Unless they're a very specific type of person (and it's pretty obvious that they aren't or they would know the correct RAW and be using it) your prediction of being horrified that the rules that they played with were houserules is absurd.

[Riffington]

This sounds like my kind of DM. Keep the game going, don't slow the flow for rules, enforce Golden Rule... These are the signs of a good DM.

This is absolutely right.
One vital thing from 2nd edition got lost on the way to 3rd: Don't be a Rules Lawyer. If the DM is keeping the game fast and interesting, then he's doing a good job. Stopping the action as if it were a court case instead of a game... it's annoying. If the book and he disagree, it's the book that's wrong.

After the session is over, if you want to have something something work differently (whether to make it more like the rules book or less), you can ask him. Ask about a maximum of one thing per session to avoid being too annoying.