Combat in Freefall

[Skjaldbakka]

This came up in the rogue v. wizard thread.

Hypothetically speaking, two people are falling adjacent to one another, and for whatever reason, they remain falling for an extended period of time, perhaps due to featherfall.

Are there rules for attacking in free fall (I doubt it)?

What penalties would you assign, if any?

I lean towards using or modifiying the penalties for fighing while levitating.

[TheOOB]

Assuming the characters have no special ways of controlling their decent, magical or otherwise, I would remove dex bonus to AC, give a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls (ranged would be virtually impossible), and require a DC 20 Dex check to move 5' reletive to the your opponent.

I would probably also require a hefty concentraition check to cast spells, not to mention a dex check if the spells require any material or focus components.

[Hallavast]

Assuming the characters have no special ways of controlling their decent, magical or otherwise, I would remove dex bonus to AC, give a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls (ranged would be virtually impossible), and require a DC 20 Dex check to move 5' reletive to the your opponent.

I would probably also require a hefty concentraition check to cast spells, not to mention a dex check if the spells require any material or focus components.

Three questions:

-Why can't you shoot someone when you're falling for more than one round?

-Why would moving require Dexterity (instead of Strength)? I'm thinking of swimming...

-If you can fly at high speeds without incurring spellcasting penalties, why should skydiving be any different?

[Skjaldbakka]

How would you account for people that have actual skill at manuevering in freefall? It would be kinda silly to optimize a character for combat in freefall, but there are people that do aerial acrobatics and such.

[TheOOB]

Three questions:

-Why can't you shoot someone when you're falling for more than one round?

When you are falling quickly it becomes almost impossible to aim a ranged weapon. While the projectile is traveling horizontally, your target is falling, and you are falling to, it would take an outright amazing shot to even scratch your target.

-Why would moving require Dexterity (instead of Strength)? I'm thinking of swimming...

You can't swim in air, how you move in free fall is by maneuvering your body so you have more or less air resistance on one portion of your body, which is more agility then strength.

-If you can fly at high speeds without incurring spellcasting penalties, why should skydiving be any different?

It's the same reason you need a concentraition check to cast while in an earthquake, or galloping on a horse, between the effects of gravity, wind resistance, and difficultly controlling your movement it would be quite hard to perform the percise movements to cast a spell, much less get past the "Oh my god, I'm falling, I'm gunna die" thing going in your head.

As for aerial acrobatics, profession exists for a reason.

[Skjaldbakka]

yes, but how would that help with free-fall combat? Would you allow a profession (aerial acrobat) check instead of a DC 20 dex check? And perhaps a feat to negate the flat-footed-ness and the -4 penalty?

[TheOOB]

yes, but how would that help with free-fall combat? Would you allow a profession (aerial acrobat) check instead of a DC 20 dex check? And perhaps a feat to negate the flat-footed-ness and the -4 penalty?

Sure, make them make a profession (aerial acrobat) check each turn, depending on how high the results they can move further, and and ignore some, or all of the penalties.

Really, though, how you run the rules should be based on how dramatic versus realistic you want it to be. Realistically, two warrios falling at terminal velocity are going to scream a little while and go splat, dramatically you get the mid air fight between gandalf and the balrog.

[Green Bean]

yes, but how would that help with free-fall combat? Would you allow a profession (aerial acrobat) check instead of a DC 20 dex check? And perhaps a feat to negate the flat-footed-ness and the -4 penalty?

Maybe instead of a DEX check, you could use a Tumble check? The skill lets you lower falling damage, so it seems to represent a bit of aptitude for midair manoeuvring.

[Hallavast]

Good points, OOB. I forgot about terminal velocity...

However, there is still an inconsistency with flying at high speeds and falling in regards to spellcasting difficulty. You have many of the same problems in both situations, but only one would require a check?

And would you really have the "oh god I'm gonna die!" effect if you know you most likely will live through this? I'm sure you could train yourself to ignore it (much like how people can remain calm on a rollercoaster with practice). I suppose it might require a will save if you're not used to it though...

Finally, I don't buy the "profession acrobatics check" when determining combat potential. Profession pertains to how you make your living within a certain field of work. I don't see it contributing much in combat...

[Reinboom]

perform would probably be more wise - house ruled to have a dex modifier.

[Machete]

Well, for maneuvering in freefall I'd say its actually Balance that controls it because of the "walk on water" and "walk on air" functions. That, and Balance doesn't get a lot of love past 5 ranks to prevent Grease Doom.

[averagejoe]

How would you account for people that have actual skill at manuevering in freefall? It would be kinda silly to optimize a character for combat in freefall, but there are people that do aerial acrobatics and such.

Hmmm... that's actually an awsome idea. Now I have to figure out a society where, for some reason, its warriors would optimize themselves for freefall combat, and this would be a good option.

[Ragna]

And what happens to robe wearing wizos?

[Fizban]

Off the top of my head, I'd apply the same penalties as fighting while using a levitate spell. I'd allow a dex or balance check against an arbitrary DC (probly research how hard it is to adjust while falling to get an idea. I'd figure it'd be harder with feather fall since you have less wind resistance to push you after you angle yourself) to move horizontally as well. Depending on the speed, you could use the same concentration DC's as those from strong winds. How fast is falling in mph?

[Skjaldbakka]

Fizban- this is a long shot, but you don't also happen to do Stella Quest, do you?

[TheOOB]

I'm sure you could train yourself to ignore it (much like how people can remain calm on a rollercoaster with practice)

Isn't that what the concentration skill is, the ability to maintain your mental focus to perform a difficult task despite distractions?

[Paragon Badger]

Really, though, how you run the rules should be based on how dramatic versus realistic you want it to be. Realistically, two warrios falling at terminal velocity are going to scream a little while and go splat, dramatically you get the mid air fight between gandalf and the balrog.

Damn. You stole the reference I was going to make some lame joke out of.

Fighting in free-fall at all seems like something only epic-level people.. (or Jedi...) would attempt. Since, I'd be more worried about hitting my head on the pavement than trying to stab the dude whose also likely to hit his head on the pavement. In either case; you're both going to die, anyways.

(Then again, D&D fall rules can be a tad bit... unrealistic.)

[boomwolf]

under the effect of slow falling (like feather fall) i would treat it as normal combat when moving is only possible by pushing/pulling yourself from platforms/people/walls etc using jump and tumble checks...

and i don't see why range would care. the ammo will still be going down at same speed. roles of psychics.

long fall without slowing effects is still a normal fall and combat is rather impossible, you cannot control your movements right, unless you have special training, and i doubt anyone would except an NPC you stuck there as you knew there will be a freefall there.

[martyboy74]

How fast is falling in mph?

In D&D, you fall 150 the first round, then 300 feet per round every round after that.

That translates to 122 3/11 mph the first round, and 204 6/11 miles per hour every round after that. These rules aren't actually that bad, compared to reality.


Couldn't you use ranged weapons if your target was big enough and directly above/below you, like Samus vs. Ridley in Metroid Prime 3?

[SCPRedMage]

Maybe instead of a DEX check, you could use a Tumble check? The skill lets you lower falling damage, so it seems to represent a bit of aptitude for midair manoeuvring.

Actually, that has more to do with the landing than with midair maneuverability. A successful Tumble check to reduce the damage from a fall represents rolling appropriately to redirect some of your momentum.

[goat]

Well, as controlled freefall (as in, moving around purposefully rather than just falling) is normally reliant on on small, careful movements, I'd definitely base it off Dexterity, and probably balance.

The problem with using ranged weapons wouldn't be targeting, but the reaction force when you fire. Firing a bow would give you a kick that would start you spinning, and you'd have to make attempts to counteract it. You might get a shot off, but you'd probably have to spend most of the next round just righting yourself so you could take another.

Grappling is probably the way to go. Dive in, grab them, and shank them in the kidney.

[Fizban]

Fizban- this is a long shot, but you don't also happen to do Stella Quest, do you?

Nope, never heard of it. It's a commonly used name, I'm surprised it wasn't taken when I joined the forum.

[Dubie]

I don't know if a bow would send you spining. There realy isn't that much recoil not obsorbed by the arms of the bow. Some higher caliber firearms possibly.

[boomwolf]

The problem with using ranged weapons wouldn't be targeting, but the reaction force when you fire. Firing a bow would give you a kick that would start you spinning, and you'd have to make attempts to counteract it. You might get a shot off, but you'd probably have to spend most of the next round just righting yourself so you could take another.

thats jest wrong.
its not a gun.
their power is equal to your own.
the is little to no backfire while using them.

[Seffbasilisk]

Levitate rules. Both counted as prone. Depending on how the wind buffets them, possibly a 20% miss chance on attacks.

[Chronos]

I don't know if a bow would send you spining. There realy isn't that much recoil not obsorbed by the arms of the bow. Some higher caliber firearms possibly.

Nope, there's no such thing as "absorbing recoil". The arrow transfers momentum to the bow, and the bow transfers momentum to you. Unless you aimed very carefully, with your center of mass in line with the arrow (a difficult position to hold a bow in), you're definitely going to start spinning. And the only way you'll be able to stop spinning is by firing another arrow (which will take an even more difficult pose to hold the bow, and probably an off-hand penalty) or by using wind resistance to "swim" away your angular momentum (which would definitely take longer than it took to shoot the bow, and would require a lot of practice). As long as you don't take too many shots, you could compensate in the short term by windmilling your legs, but as soon as you stopped windmilling, you'd start spinning again, and doing so would probably interfere with anything you might do to soften the landing (i.e., tumbling).

[Sornjss Lichdom]

if you think about it you could almost make a INT check for moving in the air. Like understanding that if you change the angle of your body you start to spin, or like throwing your wieght in one direction moves you around.

[martyboy74]

Maybe make an int check to give you a (fairly sizeable) bonus on the dex check; after all, you still have to pull it off. A physicst could figure out how to perfectly be able to hit a baseball for maximum distance, but they almost certainly couldn't actually pull it off.

[Grug]

Check the Levitation spell description. If you move around to much while in the air you can start spinning out of control. Could be a good reference.

[de-trick]

how about a grapple check to see if your on top or bottom, both take a -4 for attacking, if you are onto you get a +2 to damage for getting your weight into it, if on the bottom you take a -2 to damage, ranged shot from underneath takes a another -2 to attack, spellcasting you have to make a DC20 to cast a spell

what about that