Why the hate of Warmages?

[bugsysservant]

Just that. Why does everyone seem to hate Warmages? Yes, they aren't as powerful as wizards, or even sorcerers, but those are both widely regarded as unbalanced. In fact, upon perusing the "Tiers of DnD" thread, they seem roughly on par with Rogues, Rangers, and Knights, all of which are considered to be excellent classes. Yet I have never once heard anything but criticism of the poor Warmage. Its are a balanced class which provides exactly what it offers: a blaster caster. So, why the hate?

Note: I'm not defending them, and I am sure they have their downsides, I am just honestly curious about why everyone seems to dislike them.

[Reel On, Love]

Just that. Why does everyone seem to hate Warmages? Yes, they aren't as powerful as wizards, or even sorcerers, but those are both widely regarded as unbalanced. In fact, upon perusing the "Tiers of DnD" thread, they seem roughly on par with Rogues, Rangers, and Knights, all of which are considered to be excellent classes. Yet I have never once heard anything but criticism of the poor Warmage. Its are a balanced class which provides exactly what it offers: a blaster caster. So, why the hate?

Note: I'm not defending them, and I am sure they have their downsides, I am just honestly curious about why everyone seems to dislike them.

On par with rangers, maybe; Rogues and Knights are both better classes. For one thing, they actually fill a party role; the Warmage doesn't. A ranger can probably arch about as well as the Warmage blasts, if he tries--and he can do other stuff, too.

Warmage isn't "balanced", it's "pretty weak". Warmages are squishy; they can't really defend themselves, but they do things that will draw attention to them.

I think a lot of hate for Warmages comes from the fact that blasting isn't classy, and that a lot of people... people I've played with, at least... seem to think that casters should blast, and therefore the Warmage makes a great party arcanist (when in fact, they can't fill that role at all).

[BardicDuelist]

What I think the thing is is that Rogues, Knights, etc. are all decent classes WITHOUT magic. The fact that a warmage is a caster who is no where near on par with many other casters (including a well built bard, even if you only allow core and CArcane).

[Reel On, Love]

What I think the thing is is that Rogues, Knights, etc. are all decent classes WITHOUT magic. The fact that a warmage is a caster who is no where near on par with many other casters (including a well built bard, even if you only allow core and CArcane).

Sublime Chord doesn't count.

But yeah, part of the hate is that the Warmage is so lackluster compared to his closest kin.
And that while he's supposed to be better at blasting than the Sorcerer, he really isn't, since the sorcerer can set up enemies for blasting (control) and keep himself safe (mirror image, flight, etc) and get the Metamagic Expert variant, all of which help blasting out.

[bugsysservant]

Well, Bards are also viewed as broken. Its possible to create a bard which will approach a batman wizard in power, and if you allow leadership, your campaign is pretty much over. But Warmages aren't supposed to replace Bards. The closest thing to that would be the Beguiler. The Warmage is supposed to fill the role of party blaster. If you're going to make a caster that spends all its spell slots on magic missile and fireball, better to play a Warmage than a Sorceror.

[Reel On, Love]

Well, Bards are also viewed as broken. Its possible to create a bard which will approach a batman wizard in power, and if you allow leadership, your campaign is pretty much over. But Warmages aren't supposed to replace Bards. The closest thing to that would be the Beguiler. The Warmage is supposed to fill the role of party blaster. If you're going to make a caster that spends all its spell slots on magic missile and fireball, better to play a Warmage than a Sorceror.

But you shouldn't ever make a caster that spends ALL it sspell slots of magic missile and fireball. You should also cast, for example, Mage Armor in the morning, then Mirror Image and/or Fly during the fight. A sorcerer makes a better blaster than a warmage because he can keep blasting without dying or running away.

[Zincorium]

A significant problem is that a warmage generally can't contribute well at all outside combat, their skill selection is as bad as a fighter and they have no utility spells or abilities, except the light series of spells. There's a reason they were put in the miniature's handbook.

Secondly, they just duplicate what barbarians and rogues already do: damage. Unlike the rest of the set spell list casters (beguilers, dread necromancers) they're focused on a single way of solving problems, and when that doesn't work well they suck very badly.

Lastly, their fluff is nothing special. They don't even have a unique twist, they're just casters who blow stuff up.

[kamikasei]

The Warmage is supposed to fill the role of party blaster.

There's your problem. Many here don't feel there should be a "party blaster".

[Reel On, Love]

Exactly. "Blaster" is NOT a role. It's not even a sub-role like "damage output". It's a specific way of filling that sub-role.

Melee characters do as much damage as the warmage using his higher-level spells, they do it all the time, they're not as easy to kill, and they can even control the battlefield better.

[deadseashoals]

I would like to share with you all the one situation in which a warmage in a party that I was playing with became, for one brief moment, a shining beacon of light and hope unto us all.

This may take some explanation of the warmage's mechanics:

Warmage edge allows the warmage to add his Intelligence bonus to damage on spells that he casts. It specifies that a spell that deals its damage over more than 1 round deals this extra damage on each round.

The Extra Edge adds 1+warmage level / 4 to the edge damage.

Melf's acid arrow ignores spell resistance and is on the warmage's spell list.

Now, for the situation:

In the final battle at the end of a long, nonsensical dungeon crawl, the particular adventure we were playing had pit our eighth-level party against two iron golems and a rakshasa in an enclosed space. The iron golem has DR 15/adamantine and an AC of 30, along with spell immunity. As such, neither the duskblade nor the barbarian could put a dent in the things, and the duskblade died a quick death. The cleric certainly wasn't built for damage, and the druid, lacking adamantine claws in his fleshraker dinosaur form, was also unable to do much. The rest of the party proceeded to protect the warmage while he brought the iron golems down with repeated castings of acid arrow, and when he had run out of those, lesser orb of acid.

So basically, when facing multiple opponents with spell immunity and massive damage reduction that are 5 CRs each over the party's APL, the warmage was able to shine.

[axraelshelm]

nod nod the warmage lacks luster when it comes to storyline inspiration aswell... for me anyway, customisation is pretty poor as bad as the monk you can compare two warmages at high level and they would be almost identical

[Jarlax]

read any thread on how people feel a wizard should run and you can see the hate for warmage. its a pure evoker, which is a school a lot of people downplay on their wizards to avoid the role of "blaster".

in theory its a good class with high damage output and a better AC then your average wizard. in practice it becomes pretty clear this is not the case. it suffers from a severe lack of support spells like spider climb, fly and knock. among other spells.

on top of this while it does have the ability to wear armor, wizards are generally better defended by spells like protection from arrows, mirror image and invisibility while standing in the back row avoiding combat altogether, rather than being well defended against combat through a high AC.

the concept that the Warmage represents has appeared in several other books with better implementations than what you get from the warmage itself.

[Arbitrarity]

So basically, when facing multiple opponents with spell immunity and massive damage reduction that are 5 CRs each over the party's APL, the warmage was able to shine.

See, this is the true role of the warmage! Preach the might, as it is excellent at fighting multiple opponents with spell immunity and massive DR!

[Anxe]

I played a Warmage as a Mystic Theurge with Favored Soul once. I think it worked pretty well. But that's not really a true warmage. One of my players is using a warmage right now and it works great. He's able to kill pretty much all my encounters in one or two rounds. I don't think it's a bad class. Then again the recurring villain in my campaign is a Samurai.

[Zincorium]

I played a Warmage as a Mystic Theurge with Favored Soul once. I think it worked pretty well. But that's not really a true warmage. One of my players is using a warmage right now and it works great. He's able to kill pretty much all my encounters in one or two rounds. I don't think it's a bad class. Then again the recurring villain in my campaign is a Samurai.

I have to imagine your ability scores were very, very good to pull that off, and even then it's about as self-nerfed a combo as I've heard of anyone actually playing.

But then, it's a calibration issue. If, like you said, you can get away with having a samurai as a recurring villain, then power levels are probably very relaxed.

[Nowhere Girl]

I think part of the problem with warmages is that wizards, sorcerers, clerics and druids -- as designed -- are allowed in the game.

I'm not entirely sure that's a failing of the warmage, per se.

It's sort of like how, if you were allowed to select "tarrasque" as a melee class, all of the other melee classes (even warblades, barbarians and psychic warriors) would look pretty worthless.

[AtomicKitKat]

Secondly, they just duplicate what barbarians and rogues already do: damage. Unlike the rest of the set spell list casters (beguilers, dread necromancers) they're focused on a single way of solving problems, and when that doesn't work well they suck very badly.

Hey now. Beguilers and Dread Necromancers are made along similar lines(Enchantment/Compulsion for one, Necromancy for the other). It's just that they have a couple of options each if their main spell focus fails("I hit it." for the Beguiler, and "I send my minions to hit it." for the Dread Necromancer).

Huh. Iron Golems being taken down by a second-level spell. I could have sworn back in AD&D they were immune to everything except for the listed stuff.

Evocation sucks because:

1. Everybody else can already do damage. Usually better. And all day.
2. Monster HP has gone up since AD&D(back then, it was just Xd8+Y. Now it's roughly double that amount, maybe more, sometimes before you even add the Constitution), while spell damage has not(still Xd6). Class HP too, come to think of it.
3. Why piss off a bunch of enemies by mildly hurting them, when you can knock them all out with one spell, make them fight each other, etc.?
4. Fireball and Lightning Bolt? Fly gives the party more options, and lasts over more fights.

[Anxe]

I have to imagine your ability scores were very, very good to pull that off, and even then it's about as self-nerfed a combo as I've heard of anyone actually playing.

That character was actually done with 32 point-buy. Only played him for one session, but he kicked butt during it. The rest of the party was complaining about being out of spells when he was only a quarter out.

[Reel On, Love]

I think part of the problem with warmages is that wizards, sorcerers, clerics and druids -- as designed -- are allowed in the game.

I'm not entirely sure that's a failing of the warmage, per se.

It's sort of like how, if you were allowed to select "tarrasque" as a melee class, all of the other melee classes (even warblades, barbarians and psychic warriors) would look pretty worthless.

Nonsense. Warmage is pretty pitiful even when you compare it to second-tier casters like Favored Souls, Spirit Shamans, Sorcerers (top of the second tier/bottom of the first), Psions, etc. Or to melee characters, who do as much damage as he does and are tougher, too.

[Arbitrarity]

It's sort of like how, if you were allowed to select "tarrasque" as a melee class, all of the other melee classes (even warblades, barbarians and psychic warriors) would look pretty worthless.

ECL 48+? Kthxbyenowai.

[Nowhere Girl]

Nonsense. Warmage is pretty pitiful even when you compare it to second-tier casters like Favored Souls, Spirit Shamans, Sorcerers (top of the second tier/bottom of the first), Psions, etc. Or to melee characters, who do as much damage as he does and are tougher, too.

Frankly, psions and sorcerers are probably still too strong for balance purposes.

I'm not sure about favored souls and shamans.

[TSGames]

I sort of like the warmage, and all the other specialized casting classes(beguiler, and dread necro). If you want to play a blaster, it's the class to play. It makes blasting fun and easy to manage. The specialized casting classes are great ideas and I hope that 4E has more classes structured in similar ways. I consider it to b a balanced class, even if it's not that powerful.

[Solmage]

Well, it depends what sort of game is being played. In a game where you aren't allowed to make psychic-warrior/blah blah crap, but instead would simply be a plain non-minmaxed fighter who is elated he actually found a +1 flaming sword, a blaster mage like the warmage starts becoming somewhat useful.

Unfortunately, the biggest drawback is that the sorcerer does it better. With on the fly meta magic he would not have run out of melf's acid arrows in the example above, and his arrows could have been quite a bit more powerful, specially if he's a sorcerer with a meta magic specialization of some sort.

Honestly, I think that the entire evocation school needs a change. Maybe every d6 per lvl spell (~3.5/lvl) needs to be replaced by a d20 per 2 levels, to make that school really worth casting.

[Chronos]

Huh. Iron Golems being taken down by a second-level spell. I could have sworn back in AD&D they were immune to everything except for the listed stuff.

They still are, almost. The trick is that Spell Immunity functions like unbreakable Spell Resistance. So it's useless against spells which don't offer Spell Resistance, like Acid Arrow.

[MrNexx]

One thing about Warmages... they're fun. They have the visceral fun of simply blowing the Hell out of things. There may be more effective ways to cast spells, but blowing the Hell out of things is almost always FUN.

However, there are a few things I would do to help them in their roles as "battle casters". I'd up their BAB to moderate, their HP to a d8, and give them a better selection of weapon spells (like Flame Blade) and simple defenses (shield, mage armor, etc; protections against mundane weapons).

[MeklorIlavator]

Well, it depends what sort of game is being played. In a game where you aren't allowed to make psychic-warrior/blah blah crap, but instead would simply be a plain non-minmaxed fighter who is elated he actually found a +1 flaming sword, a blaster mage like the warmage starts becoming somewhat useful.

A fighter who has a high Str, uses a two handed weapon, and has power attack would do better. And you may not even need power attack, so I fail to see how any min/maxing is involved. Or a high dex fighter based on archery could do it, but they would need a bit more optimization to do this. And this is without magic items. With them, its not an issue.

[TSGames]

Well, it depends what sort of game is being played. In a game where you aren't allowed to make psychic-warrior/blah blah crap, but instead would simply be a plain non-minmaxed fighter who is elated he actually found a +1 flaming sword, a blaster mage like the warmage starts becoming somewhat useful.

This I disagree with. Nearly any class can be made with the right optimization and specialization, the Warmage is no exception. I've seen them contribute to parties in high-powered campaigns, just as much as any other member of the party. It requires a bit more optimization than the wizard of cleric, but not nearly as much as the fighter. If you are any kind of a powergamer, it's not hard to build a warmage that contributes to the party and is effective in combat. Comparing the warmage to the fighter is just wrong...

[Reel On, Love]

This I disagree with. Nearly any class can be made with the right optimization and specialization, the Warmage is no exception. I've seen them contribute to parties in high-powered campaigns, just as much as any other member of the party. It requires a bit more optimization than the wizard of cleric, but not nearly as much as the fighter. If you are any kind of a powergamer, it's not hard to build a warmage that contributes to the party and is effective in combat. Comparing the warmage to the fighter is just wrong...

What the heck do you *do* with the Warmage? I'm willing to bet I can make a Fighter 20 (Fighter 16/X 4 would be better, but hey) that contributes more to the party than a Warmage 20.

[Starbuck_II]

Huh. Iron Golems being taken down by a second-level spell. I could have sworn back in AD&D they were immune to everything except for the listed stuff.

Please, Acid Splash works too and that is a cantrip.
Conjur rules versus Golems!

Evocation sucks because:

1. Everybody else can already do damage. Usually better. And all day.
2. Monster HP has gone up since AD&D(back then, it was just Xd8+Y. Now it's roughly double that amount, maybe more, sometimes before you even add the Constitution), while spell damage has not(still Xd6). Class HP too, come to think of it.
3. Why piss off a bunch of enemies by mildly hurting them, when you can knock them all out with one spell, make them fight each other, etc.?
4. Fireball and Lightning Bolt? Fly gives the party more options, and lasts over more fights.

There are times when Fireball/Lightning Bolt is sweet Level 5-7. After this, these spells aren't as useful compared to other spells.

Deadseashoals:

In the final battle at the end of a long, nonsensical dungeon crawl, the particular adventure we were playing had pit our eighth-level party against two iron golems and a rakshasa in an enclosed space. The iron golem has DR 15/adamantine and an AC of 30, along with spell immunity. As such, neither the duskblade nor the barbarian could put a dent in the things, and the duskblade died a quick death. The cleric certainly wasn't built for damage, and the druid, lacking adamantine claws in his fleshraker dinosaur form, was also unable to do much. The rest of the party proceeded to protect the warmage while he brought the iron golems down with repeated castings of acid arrow, and when he had run out of those, lesser orb of acid.

Wait, the melee guys could not deal 16 damage or hit AC 30?
What level was this? Level 8

2 Handed (Greatsword): +2 Weapon, 20 Str: 7 average + 7 Str +2=16 average damage right from the get go.
Hit: +15 Hit; hit AC 30 on a 15.

Now, Duskblade can improve this hit/damage chance with spells. How can be doing that bad!

A Basic Barbarian could deal in Rage:
2 Handed (Greatsword): +2 Weapon, 24 Str: 7 average + 10 Str +2=19 average damage right from the get go.
Hit: +17 Hit; hit AC 30 on a 13.

[Reel On, Love]

There are times when Fireball/Lightning Bolt is sweet Level 5-7. After this, these spells aren't as useful compared to other spells.

Yeah, no. Compare to Deep Slumber or Haste or even the lower-level Glitterdust (which essentially shuts down enemies of that level completely, meaning the meleers wipe them up and may never even take a hit).