The Sneaky Lancer: Optimization.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Dearest compatriots; my preference- indeed, my exclusivity- to character who deal their deathly dealings from shadows and stealth is well-known to you; and in this regard, I have some degree of expertise.

At the moment, however, I find myself...stuck. Not so much a matter of limited motivation, or even of limited competence, but of limited decisiveness.

I've managed to create a character that could go in any number of directions, but whom I'm uncertain would shine in any particular one of the paths I've elected to try.

Thus, I lay this poor, broken humanoid at your feet, that you may aid me in making her whole and hale again.

The parameters of the challenge are as follows:

• Race: Human.
• Template: Dark (And thus, +1 LA).
• Primary Role: Scout, sneaker, skill specialist.
• Class Features (Non-optional): Trapfinding.
• General Build Focus: Mounted combat.

An unusual set of circumstances, to be sure, but not impossible to reconcile- or so I hope.

In addition, the character in question has already begun play, and the finished build should not overtly contradict established canon: to whit,the character is stealthy, possessed of a short sword and lance, and a 1-HD Armadon (my personal Farscouter variant, linked here) as a mount.

ECL is 2, class levels available, one, but the campaign will progress up to seventeenth level and beyond.
The character has the shaky flaw, and thus has three feats available (one of which may go to the lance, unless she chooses not to wield it presently- a reasonable choice, in-character, for backstory reasons).
Regardless of class, the character's allegiance grants her Cavalry Errant as a bonus feat, allowing her to retain Ride as a class skill.

I'd also like to direct attention to the Streetfighter definition class as a possible choice.
The campaign in question has collapsed Hide and Move Silently into a single skill (Stealth) and Spot and Listen into a single skill (Awareness). Open Lock and Disable Device are also the same skill (Disable Device).

Last but not least: ability scores are 17, 15, 15, 14, 12, 12; intelligence below fifteen would contradict canonical abilities demonstrated.

Apologies for the length of above.
So; what say you, fellow travelers?

[Jasdoif]

I find it unusual that your build focus only coincides with one of the three primary roles. Is there something I'm missing?

Anyway, the very first thing that occurred to me is combining variants. Specifically, the wilderness rogue with the rogue variant that trades sneak attack for the fighter bonus feat progression. Admittedly this was looking better before I realized you said you get Ride as a class skill regardless....but you still get tons of skill points, you still have Trapfinding, and you've got the bonus feats to help you develop your mounted combat ability. (You'd get the same if you just took the rogue variant with a standard rogue) You also get some nice options for rogue special abilities, as you may be allowed to take Hide in Plain Sight at level 10, when you first get to pick a rogue special ability (check with your DM first, it's an ambiguous-looking situation).

On the other hand, you don't get full BAB this way, which might be an issue.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

The Dark Template already grants me the Hide in Plain Sight ability; otherwise, that would be a good thing to have.

Wilderness rogue would, however, be a good choice, but for a different reason; Handle Animal would likely make it much easier to qualify for, say, Beast Heart Adept- one of the PrCs I'm considering.

As to why I have a combative focus, but an essentially stealthy role in mind, the campaign's a 'War' theme, and I'd like to try something different. I've pretty much reached the apex of pure sneaking in previous characters, so I'd like to have something with greater combat utility.

What specific feats augment mounted combat, in your opinion?

[Human Paragon 3]

This seems like a good way to go. You'll need the feats and hide in plain sight is a great skill for a sneaker.

For feats: Spirited charge and Trample stand out. I'm sure some nice people will tell you how to cheese out your lance damage.

If you, for some reason, decide to keep sneak attack instead of going with feats, be sure to take improved initiative so you can get your sneak attack charge in while your enemies are still flat footed.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Well, Hide in Plain Sight I already have, again, from the Dark Template (Tome of Magic).

I'll have a look at those feats, actually; having never played a lancer/mounted character before, I'm not up on the cheese wheels involved.

Improved initiative...well. If I've got my dexterity up to snuff, I likely won't need it, and with a Stealth modifier of +13 as a 1st-level rogue, there honestly aren't going to be many people spotting me anyways.

[dyslexicfaser]

A valorous lance is always a good investment: a +1 weapon ability to double damage on a charge, whether mounted or on foot. This stacks with other double damage (like a lance's) to become x3 or more on a mounted charge.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Interesting! I'll look into it.

Anyone with advice regarding ability score placement, or possible feats/classes?

[Idiotbox90]

What is the class that is similar to the T. Shadowlord, only for mounted characters?

[Armads]

Don't ever take the cavalier if you have the MIC: it's a trap.

Just get the riding boots. If you have spirited charge + riding boots, your lance charge multiplier goes to x4. It also gives +5 to ride checks, and the ride-by-attack feat for free, all for 12k.

[Human Paragon 3]

Forgive my ignorance, but won't your mount be spotted? Is it not large? Does it have some built in invisibility or sommat?

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

The Farscouter is large, but relatively dexterous, and as I get to build it's skills etc., and I'll likely upgrade to a still stealthier mount at a later date, I'm hoping it won't be a problem.

And honestly, the incongruity/awesome of a lancer and mount fading out of the shadows to shred someone is the reason I even bothered.

[Benejeseret]

Two suggestions:

1. Wild Cohort feat to get yourself a upgrading mount. Then ask your DM to allow it to qualify you for Wild Plains Outrider Prc. Or, if the DM has already given you a mount see if you can go into wild plains anyway.

2. One level dip into wild plains outrider prc lets you use your hide/move silently ranks for the animal with its dex bonus. Since you will be pouring skills into Stealth, you could make a rhino sneaky. 2 levels into it and you gain speed.

[Person_Man]

You could have gotten Hide in Plain Site with a dip into Warlock and the Blend into Shadows feat, rather then wasting a class level (hit points, Saves, Skills) entirely on the LA for the Dark template. But that's a moot point.

Furthermore, although you have Hide in Plain Sight, your mount does not. So you cannot Hide in combat while mounted. And even if it did, your Hide check does not extend to your mount (unless you're also a Wild Plains Outrider).

In addition, Scouts make really cruddy mounted builds. Skirmish is not triggered by mounted movement. And bonus dice of damage are never multiplied, which means that it doesn't synergize with a lance.

Finally, your build currently has 0 BAB. The primary source of charge damage is Power Attack with a lance wielded two handed while using Spirited Charge and Shock Trooper, for an impressive +6 to damage per BAB, higher with the right combos. But you have 0.

So in summary, I think you're screwed from an optimization perspective. But that doesn't mean you can't have a fun time anyway.

If I wanted to do a "sneaky lancer" I would probably just build a normal lancer and find a way to give him and his mount Greater Invisibility and Silence. Throw in high Int and a dip into a Skill Monkey class, and you'll probably be able to do everything you want.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Well, hello sunshine.

Wild Plains Outrider looks great, actually; Wild Cohort I'm still considering.

[Keld Denar]

Look into a giant bat or owl for a mount. They are flying creatures that have racial bonuses to hide. See if you can even get a (dark) one, to get HiPS for it too. You can then do Dive and flyby attacks. You can swoop in and out of the night making stabbity with impuny. Dive + Spirited Charge + Valorous weapon means whatever you hit is gonna hurt like hell.

Only problem is that you are pretty much restricted to outdoor warfare, but that might not be a problem.

[Quietus]

Look into a giant bat or owl for a mount. They are flying creatures that have racial bonuses to hide. See if you can even get a (dark) one, to get HiPS for it too. You can then do Dive and flyby attacks. You can swoop in and out of the night making stabbity with impuny. Dive + Spirited Charge + Valorous weapon means whatever you hit is gonna hurt like hell.

Only problem is that you are pretty much restricted to outdoor warfare, but that might not be a problem.

Is it wrong that I had a coolgasm picturing this in my head?

[Benejeseret]

Not the best use of your levels, but this link might be of interest

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a

Dark Hunter: makes your mount and yourself very, very fast. Also gets some spells.

At level 7 you can cast Ethereal Jaunt.


Sooo.....how about this.

Ninja 8 / Dark Hunter 7 / Druid N or Ranger 4 / wild plains outrider 1

Why you ask??

druid or 4 ranger levels - gets you a SPELL-LINKED mount
Dark Hunter - makes your mount REALLY fast and lets you cast Ethereal Jaunt spell-liked with your mount.
Wild plains outrider - for those times not ethereal makes you both sneaky
Ninja - Ghost Strike (the only RAW way to attack from the ethereal plain)

Sooo....as a mounted ninja your sudden strike works every charge due to ethereal and spending a ki point lets your invisible, ethereal, charge hit.

They do not see you....they do not hear you......BAM.....

[Jasdoif]

Don't forget that barding is just armor for unusual creatures. You can get magic barding the same way you can get magic armor. Get a +1 shadow mithral chain shirt (with a more flavored name then "shirt"). There you go, no armor check penalty and a +5 competence bonus on Hide checks for your mount. That'll more then cover the -4 penalty from being large.