Spellcaster's bane - Optimization

[Stam]

But this is optimization with very finite limits, many broken sources ruled off-limits and a definite end-goal in mind.

(If you can't play by them rules, then you're not optimizing my concept.)

I'm trying to build a mage-slayer who can not only get up close to a mage without use of spells, but then can proceed to smack said mage around without giving the mage a chance to do much about it.

Additionally, I'm trying to make said PC as unkillable by the mages as possible.

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Definitely Disallowed sources: Tome of Battle; Races of the Wild/Stone/Destiny/Dragon; Complete Mage/Scoundrel/Champion.

Allowed Sources: Anything FR 3.0 and above (includes Dragon articles FR-specific); Complete Adv/Arc/Div/War; Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Frostburn; Heroes of Battle.

I'll repeat: Tome of Battle is not allowed on the site I'll be playing this on. Please do not give me suggestions from this book.

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Basic intended build and premises:

32-point buy, probably looking at 14/14/12/10/15/12. Two points left to spend, suggestions as to where? Cha boosted, or Con boosted?

Monk2 - Saves, evasion, unarmed strike, raised Touch AC, and Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat.
Hexblade4 - Cha bonus to saves vs. spells, (minor initially, but every +1 counts), Mettle (Evasion for Fort/Will), spontaneous spellcasting.
Dragon Disciple - The full progression. Grants the d12 to survive the spellcaster's worst shot, and the Fort/Will saves to stand through the save-or-die/suck. Grants flight and blindsense, which allow you to find and reach the invisible/flying spellcaster.

Pick up a Glaive. You have Combat Reflexes already. Take Stand Still at 1st-level, Mage Slayer at 3rd (I am unsure what this does to the actual casting ability of the Hexblade? Can you cast spells if your CL is 0?).

Bingo, once you close to stand next to an enemy spellcaster they cannot get a single spell off without you whacking them. Should they attempt to use a Move action or Withdraw, you use Stand Still which keeps them within your threat radius. They can still 5'-step away, but that just leaves them within reach of your glaive...and they can't cast defensively there either.

Suggestions? Problems with the build? Other issues? Or a way you'd suggest it be done that'd do the job better/survive more?

[Reel On, Love]

Tome of Battle is a "broken source"? Yeah, right.
Dragon Disciple is a crappy idea.

Look up Runescarred Berserker, from the FR "Unapproachable East" book. Barbarian PrC that gets some divine casting... including AMF and Dimension door.

Keep in mind that spellcasters can tumble out of your reach (even a caster without cross-class ranks who has, say, 18 dex with items, has about a 50% chance), or Withdraw (without provoking an AoO). If you had Tome of Battle, Thicket of Blades might prevent this, but oh well. Tripping will mean the mage has to get up, first.

Mage Slayer wrecks the Hexblade's casting, but that's OK. Pierce Magical Protection should be taken, too.

Cleric 1 for the Pride domain keeps you from failing saves on a natural 1 (you get to reroll one Nat-1, you have to keep the second if you roll it again, but the odds are great).

Monk's a bad idea. Armor and shield properties like Soulfire, for example, are important.

[triforcel]

Try tossing in Complete Warrior's Occult Slayer instead of the Dragon Disciple. You get a bonus on saves versus spells, an extra d6 of damage, double damage when readying an action to disrupt casting, limited spell turning capabilities, detect magic to an extent, resistance to detection spells, and finally, immunity to all mind effecting abilities. Plus it's only five levels. So it doesn't interrupt other class progression too much.

[13_CBS]

Races of the Dragon's Dragonborn MAY help. The con bonus helps with Fort saves (though the Dex penalty might mess up the few Ref save spells they might throw at you), plus you can either fly with wings or have a breath weapon.

The flying part might be very handy, especially if you can throw up an Anti-magic shell. You can still fly, but the mage can't...

[deadseashoals]

You need flight and ways of getting around concealment/mirror image, and possibly a high attack bonus to get through AC buffs. The Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment line of feats that starts with Mage Slayer would be very beneficial, and if you want to fly without magic or a level adjustment, your best bets are Raptoran and Dragonborn.

I believe somewhere, there's also a shield that grants the use of antimagic field once a day, so you may want to reconsider the whole monk thing. You may want to reconsider it anyway, it's easy enough to get 5' reach while using a reach weapon (spiked armor, spiked chain) and there are other ways to boost your saves.

[Stam]

Someone rolled a natural 1 on their Knowledge (RAW) check. I also don't recall saying ToB was broken, only that it was not allowed in the setting the build would be used in.

Anyway. Rules!

Tumble is trained-only.
Withdraw only lets you move out of one square without AoO, not out of subsequent squares. Hence, if you close to close range with a reach weapon in hand, the caster will get AoOed regardless.

I chose the Dragon Disciple because it did exactly that, eliminates invisibility and flight as advantages for the mage. Blindsense and Flight from DD levels let you get up there and find them, then take them down hard with the boosted Str.

As for the Raptorian, I believe you crit-failed your reading check? I did forget to note that Races of the Dragon was also out, so that's my bad.

Monk was chosen because it boosts Touch AC...I don't know how to otherwise raise this, besides for a good Dex. It's optional, but as a saves-booster that grants a bonus feat I want (Combat Reflexes) it's pretty good for the price. Plus Evasion for those Ref save spells.

Edit: I had a look at the Runescarred beserker. Not bad at all, I must admit, although the prereqs are very high and it's not anywhere near where the campaign is set. It's a possibility, but doesn't draw me as much as the build above.
Mage Slayer, unfortunately, gives no means of finding or getting to a crafty spellcaster. So that might be taken at the upper levels (level 16-20) but that'd be all.

[Douglas]

Don't bother with Dragon Disciple, just be a half-dragon and save 7 levels.

Hmm, just noticed that DD gets wings regardless of size while half-dragons have to be at least large to get them. For a reasonably cheap way to get wings without being a caster that I'm pretty sure is in your allowed sources, be an Aasimar or Tiefling and take the Outsider Wings feat from Races of Faerun. Use the Lesser Planetouched variant in the back of Player's Guide to Faerun if you can to get rid of the level adjustment in exchange for losing the outsider type's benefits but not its vulnerabilities.

Possible alternative ways to fly:

Spoiler

Show

Animal Lord (birdlord) 3, ecl 8, Complete Adventurer, equal to land speed, duration improves at level 7, see text
Aarakocra, race, Races of Faerun - 90' (average), LA+2
Elemental Warrior (air) 4, ecl 11, Planar Handbook - 20' (perfect)
Starspawn, abberation feat, Lords of Madness - half land speed
Airstep Sandals, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum, 10'/essentia (good/perfect)
Incarnate Avatar (good or evil), soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum - 30' (good)
Manticore Belt, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum - 10' or more (poor) plus flyby attack
Pegasus Cloak, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum - 10' or more (average)
Geryon, vestige, ecl 10, Tome of Magic - 60' (perfect)
Air Heritage, heritage feat, Planar Handbook - +30'
Feathered Wings, fiendish graft, Fiend Folio - twice land speed (average)
Membranous Wings, fiendish graft, Fiend Folio - twice land speed (average)
outsider Wings, feat, Races of Faerun - equal to land speed, Aasimar or Tiefling only
Child of Shadow 10, ecl 15, Tome of Magic - 40' (perfect) 1 minute per day, incorporeal, see text
Psion Uncarnate 2, ecl 7, Expanded Psionics Handbook - equal to land speed (perfect), see text

Other than that, I think 5 levels of Occult Slayer and the Mage Slayer line of feats are your best options. Pierce Magical Concealment is especially important if you're depending on blindsense to negate invisibility, as blindsense does not negate the 50% miss chance.

[Armads]

Tumble is trained-only.

And wizards cannot take ranks in Tumble? They get it as a cross-class skill, but they have the skill points.

Use Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, Mage Slayer. Take a ring of blinking too, so you can strike as invisible and not suffer miss chance in return.

[Stam]

Mm. Yes, Tiefling or Aasimar might work, but I don't think the rest of the options are on the list.

However...how to find the invisible mage? Pierce Magical Concealment negates the miss chance, but it doesn't state anything about being able to see an invisible mage.

Edit: Yes, they can take a rank in Tumble...but given that casters tend to think they have everything they need in their spells, how many of them would? Other than the obvious arcane trickster-type builds?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Is Dungeonscape allowed? A Factotum is a much more solid base for taking spellcasters down than monk, since his abilities will help almost anybody, and his ability to take any skill basically eliminates skill problems. And wasn't there a mageslayer PrC out there?

[Reel On, Love]

Almost all of my spellcasters have enough Tumble ranks to always make a +15 check (counting dex, a MW tool, and stuff)--it's very useful for avoiding AoOs, which casters do have to do sometimes. So be prepared for it.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Allowed Sources: Anything FR 3.0 and above (includes Dragon articles FR-specific); Complete Adv/Arc/Div/War; Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Frostburn; Heroes of Battle.

32-point buy, probably looking at 14/14/12/10/15/12. Two points left to spend, suggestions as to where? Cha boosted, or Con boosted?

Monk2 - Saves, evasion, unarmed strike, raised Touch AC, and Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat.
Hexblade4 - Cha bonus to saves vs. spells, (minor initially, but every +1 counts), Mettle (Evasion for Fort/Will), spontaneous spellcasting.
Dragon Disciple - The full progression. Grants the d12 to survive the spellcaster's worst shot, and the Fort/Will saves to stand through the save-or-die/suck. Grants flight and blindsense, which allow you to find and reach the invisible/flying spellcaster.

Pick up a Glaive. You have Combat Reflexes already. Take Stand Still at 1st-level, Mage Slayer at 3rd (I am unsure what this does to the actual casting ability of the Hexblade? Can you cast spells if your CL is 0?).

Bingo, once you close to stand next to an enemy spellcaster they cannot get a single spell off without you whacking them. Should they attempt to use a Move action or Withdraw, you use Stand Still which keeps them within your threat radius. They can still 5'-step away, but that just leaves them within reach of your glaive...and they can't cast defensively there either.

Suggestions? Problems with the build? Other issues? Or a way you'd suggest it be done that'd do the job better/survive more?

If FR means FRCS:

Taking the Spellfire Wielder feat from Magic of Faerun gives your PC a lot of bang for the cost particularly against mages. A single level or a few level dips in the Spellfire Wielder PRC from the same source could be useful.

IF LA buydown rules are in effect consider taking a +2 LA template like half fey or phrenic. It might be a better option to take Magic in the Blood instead of Spellfire Wielder with this option.

Otherwise take the +0LA Planetouched which will bump up Charisma and Wisdom (For your Monk and Hexblade bonus)

A dip into Assassin or another PRC that provides Death Attack wouldn't be a bad idea. Acquiring Hide in Plain sight would also be a good idea.

[Armads]

Edit: Yes, they can take a rank in Tumble...but given that casters tend to think they have everything they need in their spells, how many of them would? Other than the obvious arcane trickster-type builds?

Most of them would. It saves them in AMFs.

At level 7, wizards already make the checks easily, and they should put ranks (they have too many skill points anyway).
5 ranks in tumble
+2 synergy bonus from 5 ranks in jump
+2 masterwork tool
+2 dex mod
= +11

At level 11, they automatically succeed with a +14 mod (by raising their dex mod by 1 and putting more ranks).

[shadowdemon_lord]

I think your build is a good one. Being completely unaffected by spells if you make the save is definitely a boon. I wonder about your reflex save though, at low levels it'll be great with two levels of monk, but DD doesn't have that great reflex. The high HD from DD will definitely help out, but you'll want to invest in save boosters and a high dex. Despite this forums obsession with batman, a wizard with empower and quicken can really bring the hurt on at mid levels.

[triforcel]

Most of them would. It saves them in AMFs.

At level 7, wizards already make the checks easily, and they should put ranks (they have too many skill points anyway).
5 ranks in tumble
+2 synergy bonus from 5 ranks in jump
+2 masterwork tool
+2 dex mod
= +11

At level 11, they automatically succeed with a +14 mod (by raising their dex mod by 1 and putting more ranks).

Just out of curiosity, but where do you get a masterwork tool for tumbling?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Layers for boots? Acrobatic clothing?

[Reel On, Love]

You can get a masterwork tool for anything, as long as you can justify it--check the "MW Tool" entry. An appropriate tool for Tumble would be some kind of padded outfit, to make it easier and less painful.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yes, something like "Traveler's outfit, Acrobatic". Actually, that makes ense for Scoundrels...Hmm, maybe they'll get that for free next time I find a one off adventure.

[Skjaldbakka]

Hmm, I find that most PC wizards have at least 1 rank in tumble to be able to attempt the skill check, but the vast majority of NPC wizards in modules I have seen have not had tumble. NPC tend to have builds that make sense for the concept, as supposed to having the concept be appropriate for the build.

[Kurald Galain]

You can get a masterwork tool for anything, as long as you can justify it--check the "MW Tool" entry. An appropriate tool for Tumble would be some kind of padded outfit, to make it easier and less painful.

Jack Half-Orc's Slippery Muscle Tonic (tm).


Frankly it's a bit silly to use a "masterwork tool" for any skill that doesn't normally use tools, but yes, the rules do allow it.

[Skjaldbakka]

Preperation for wizards with tumble.

Step 1: Convince DM to allow the counter-tumble mechanic.
Step 2: Max out tumble.

[Stam]

*kicks this back on-topic*

I can't see a Wizard spending five ranks in Jump (another cross-class skill!) just to get a +2 bonus to Tumble.

Frankly, I've yet to see a non-roguelike Wizard with Tumble ranks at all, mainly because while Optimizing is all well and good, I like a solid concept with my PC and don't much like metacheeseing a build.

Aasimar's benefit over Tiefling is noted, but taking either of those races (and using them to get the wings, rather than waiting until 15th-level) means that my first three levels of feats are all gone. (Outsider Wings and the prereq feat, plus Imp. Flight.) It'd also mean monk would be a requirement...and I'd have none of the Mage Slayer feats until 9th-level.

Dungeonscape isn't on the list either.

However, looking at the DD closer, I see that you wouldn't be able to find the invisible wizard until 11th-level (blindsense acquired then) or catch them mid-air until 15th (wings acquired then). Barring magical items, anyway.

I'll have to look at this a bit more. Perhaps I need a Blindsighted weapon and an item that lets me fly instead.

[Thurbane]

If the Tome of Magic is allowed, try a Karsite* Fighter/Occult Slayer or maybe Paladin/Occult Slayer.

Also, the Mage Slayer feat is great, and if you have feats to spare, pursue the Blind-Fight/Pierce Magical Concelament/Pierce Magical Protection feat chain...

*Seriously, even at +2 LA, Karsite are definitely heavy hitters against spellcasters, with their SR/Spell Healing combo.

[Vasdenjas]

Perhaps I'm missing something on the specifics of your build. How will you be doing anything to the caster though?

With the Glaive, you threaten 10' out, but not 5'. So first round, you charge to the closest square you threaten, so that's 10' out, so on his turn, he can 5' step. Or, do you instead just move to be next to him and take no attacks? This is where Dragon Disciple gives an added benefit of your bite attack. Ok, so you do threaten them a 5' now. With a bite attack +1/2 STR. I'd cast with that AO, I'll make the concentration check. Next round, what do you do? You can't attack with your glaive? So you 5' step back, full attack, and now the mage can 5' step back and be away from you.

You're better off going with a spiked chain, as cheesy as it is, simply because it threatens both 5' and 10', or take the Short Haft feat from PHB2 if that is available, which lets you change from 5' threaten to 10' threaten and back with a reach weapon as a swift action.

[Stam]

Monk's the specific you're missing. (Or as pointed out above, spiked armor.) Or as you pointed out, your claws/bite from Dragon Disciple.

You close to right next to the spellcaster, which puts him in your unarmed strike threat range. He can't cast defensively there due to the Mage Slayer feat's benefit.
Even if he takes a 5' step, he's just moved into your glaive threat range. Ditto.

If he Withdraws, he can leave your unarmed threat range without an AoO...but gets smacked with the AoO while attempting to pass through the glaive threat range. Stand Still feat at that point stops him right there, still inside your threat range and only 5' from you. He can still attempt a Standard Action at that point, but can't reach you and will get a second AoO (this one for damage) if he attempts to cast.

5' step in on your next turn and Full Attack (or vice versa, Full Attack with the glaive and then step in), and the spellcaster is right where you put him initially. Screwed. But now he's hurting more.

[Person_Man]

There are a ton of different mage slayer builds out there. Basically, you need the following elements:

1) The ability to reliably deal at least 100ish points of damage in one round without needing a full attack (unless you have pounce).

2) The ability to resist anything the caster throws at you in one round. This almost always involves high SR and/or high Saves, Mettle, Evasion, and immunities to various effects.

3) High mobility, particularly the ability to fly somehow. This isn't necessary if you can kill your enemy with a ranged attack instead of a charge combo.

4) Freedom of Movement. Buy the ring. Again, this isn't necessary if you can kill the enemy with a ranged attack instead of a charge combo.

5) Pierce Magical Concealment. This feat is a must have, since it defeats most magical protections.

6) Scent or See Invisibility or True Seeing. So that you can locate your enemy, no matter what protections he has on him.

7) High Initiative. This isn't necessary, but it helps. Most high level combats are decided in the first round. If you can kill the enemy caster in one round, then your only real enemy is Celerity, Time Stop, and other action advantage spells. If your DM uses that against you, there's pretty much nothing you can do but sit there and take it.

Most of these are best accomplished through psionics or magic items. For example, a Psion 5/Pyrokineticist 1/PrC X. But there are many other ways.

[Stam]

This'd be for middling-to-highish levels, possibly starting as low as 6th and stretching until about 13th. Actual appropriate CR may vary, depending on the party composition, and could go a smidgen higher.

So I don't have to worry about Time Stop, and I'm not going to even attempt to put together one of the 100-plus-melee-damagers...Leap Attack and all that, right? I wouldn't even know where to start building one of those

[Azerian Kelimon]

Leap attack, shocktrooper, Improved bullrush, Lion Totem barbarian. Done, mostly.

[Draz74]

However...how to find the invisible mage? Pierce Magical Concealment negates the miss chance, but it doesn't state anything about being able to see an invisible mage.

Edit: Yes, they can take a rank in Tumble...but given that casters tend to think they have everything they need in their spells, how many of them would? Other than the obvious arcane trickster-type builds?

Mages with a decent Move Silently skill are pretty rare. You could just have a really high Listen check to figure out what square they're in before you Pierce Magical Concealment. (Although some DMs (not mine) figure the mage can automatically be quiet if he's flying. Check whether flight gives Move Silently bonuses.) Or, as Person_Man mentioned, Scent is an option you might want to try to find. (Unfortunately the easiest way to get it is found only in Tome of Battle.)

As far as Tumble goes ... if you're really worried about it, your best bet might be a few levels in Knight for Bulwark of Defense.

[Keld Denar]

I have level 14 character who has all 5 levels of Occult Slayer. I must say, from actual play experience, the only OS ability I use on a regular basis is the +3 to all saves. Viscous Strike....better off full attacking on every round but the 1st. Spell Turning? I'm either immune (mind affecting) or don't get targeted (fort saves). Non-detection is seldom an issue. The +1d6 damage is minimal, and in MY experience, you only qualify for it very seldom. SUs don't count, only SPs and the ability to cast spells. If you fight a lot of NPCs with class levels, you will qualify for it more though, since you get it vs all but 3 core PC classes + gnomes. (its worth noting that occult slayers get bonus damage vs each other, because they GET a spell like ability - auravision).

To be honest, I think the last spell I reflected was a slow spell, and that was a long long time ago, and the caster made his own save.

Still it is nice to HAVE the protection. If you have the OS5 ability, you only really need evasion. Mettle really only works vs a few spells that you aren't already immune to, such as Unholy Blight, Disintegrate, Horrid Wilting, and most of the death spells (reflectable). You are also immune to all Power Words, since they are mind affecting (hell yea!).

Just some musing from a player who has a character with a caster-slayer centric attitude, although he seems to be more of a demon-slayer centric character atm...+1 cold iron bane:evil outsiders sacred spiked chain OF DOOM!