rwbyOS X: Even the Thread Gets a Costume Change!

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: V8C12

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I think we're just reading the line differently. Because that to me sounds like she's saying that her arm is not really a part of her, it's something "extra", which it definitely isn't. If she was actually at terms with it, she'd have accepted it as a part of her body, not some other mechanical "extra" bit. Comparing Penny to her arm still feels gross even with your read of the line though.

And again, Penny getting a flesh body and watching her robot body die, contrasted with Ironwood gaining more mechanical bits, is pretty clear symbolic writing. The more machine you are, the less human and good you are.

Spoiler: v08c12

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The line was in direct reference to Penny who has a 100% mechanical body. Penny is human. It doesn't matter that she has a mechanical body. She is human.

And Ruby literally only a few moments earlier said "She is dying".

She.

Dying.

P.S. You're accidentally mislabelling your spoilers. I've fixed it, you put 6 instead of 8 for the volume.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: v08c12

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The line was in direct reference to Penny who has a 100% mechanical body. Penny is human. It doesn't matter that she has a mechanical body. She is human.

And Ruby literally only a few moments earlier said "She is dying".

She.

Dying.

P.S. You're accidentally mislabelling your spoilers. I've fixed it, you put 6 instead of 8 for the volume.

My apologies about mislabeling the spoilers.

Spoiler: V8C12

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Yes, Ruby is saying those things. That has nothing to do with the fact that they're presenting her artificial body as a negative. This isn't a conversation about "is Penny human" but "is Penny less human because she lacks a flesh body". Which RWBY is saying yes, she is less human. It's her soul that matters, not her body.

Which is the problem here. She IS human, she DOES have a soul, she doesn't NEED a flesh body. But she gets one. What does that say, when the villain of the arc is replacing himself with metal? Yang compares her artificial arm to Penny's body, saying it's "just extra", as if it is not part of her. Penny gets a flesh body back to replace her artificial one, and because of their tying her body with Yang's arm, the meaning is clear.

What does that say about people who use prosthetics? Because it IS saying something.

[Rawhide]

My apologies about mislabeling the spoilers.

Spoiler: V8C12

Show

Yes, Ruby is saying those things. That has nothing to do with the fact that they're presenting her artificial body as a negative. This isn't a conversation about "is Penny human" but "is Penny less human because she lacks a flesh body". Which RWBY is saying yes, she is less human. It's her soul that matters, not her body.

Which is the problem here. She IS human, she DOES have a soul, she doesn't NEED a flesh body. But she gets one. What does that say, when the villain of the arc is replacing himself with metal? Yang compares her artificial arm to Penny's body, saying it's "just extra", as if it is not part of her. Penny gets a flesh body back to replace her artificial one, and because of their tying her body with Yang's arm, the meaning is clear.

What does that say about people who use prosthetics? Because it IS saying something.

Spoiler: v08c12

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Once again, it's saying the exact opposite.

Look, I'm getting this out of the way before we progress any further. Penny = Pinocchio. There's no way she's getting out of this story without getting a human body.

But the way they've done it is very clever. She didn't get a human body because her mechanical body was any less. She didn't get a human body because she wasn't human. She got a human body because the virus needed to be a part of her, but still not able to affect her.

She was human all along. She didn't need a human body to be human. She needed it to survive.

[Rater202]

Without having seen the episode.

Spoiler: V8E12

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Did Iron Wood need additional prophetic parts? Was he further injured?

Or did he replace parts of his body without need?

Because casting off your flesh and blood without reason is a very different thing from needing a prophetic. Zodi, you and I have spoken about how we'd both be hesitant to get bionic limbs or replacement organs if there wasn't something wrong with our original body-members.

Another thing to note is, with the Wizard of Oz metaphor going on with Ozpin's associates, Ironwood is obviously the Tin Man. The Tin Man believed himself to be less than human, unable to feel proper human emotion, despite all evidence to the contrary, becuase his flesh had been replaced with tin and he no longer had a heart. It's possible that Ironwood's additional prosthetics being framed as making him less human are becuase that is, consciously or subconsciously, what he himself believes.

[Ramza00]

Spoiler: V8C12

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I think we're just reading the line differently. Because that to me sounds like she's saying that her arm is not really a part of her, it's something "extra", which it definitely isn't. If she was actually at terms with it, she'd have accepted it as a part of her body, not some other mechanical "extra" bit. Comparing Penny to her arm still feels gross even with your read of the line though.

And again, Penny getting a flesh body and watching her robot body die, contrasted with Ironwood gaining more mechanical bits, is pretty clear symbolic writing. The more machine you are, the less human and good you are.

That was Atlas culture, crappy abusive culture of the previous generation.

Spoiler: Vol 8 Episode 12

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Penny was made for Ironwood is abusive dad (and other things.)

He wanted to create weapons, he wanted to dehumanize, he wanted to create tools, he has opinions of the Faunus and Humans, yet being part of the Military vs Civilian trumps those Faunus and Human feelings. It is all toxic BS, it is all great chain of being nonsense.

The RWBY writers are bad writers, and I am enjoying this for their non-mastery of their craft is full of surprised. I also see how this can just generate pain.

But we are in a situation where we can not tell if this is the RWBY writers trying to create show themes, or themes of an individual person and a specific culture. Ironwood is pure toxicity, now is Penny going to rebuke this culture and challenge the entire toxic system her primordial father taught her?

I really do not know! And that is why RWBY is exciting, it is so utterly disappointing some of the time, other times it brings the joy, it is pure chaotic mess.

————

So I hate the Wizard of Oz metaphors, for L. Frank Baum did not have metaphor as his ideas in the original book, the musical which made the book successful, the dozen plus books that happened after, or the 1939 movie. Metaphor was not the original goal, but due to the success of the 1939 musical we project backwards and created new metaphor. For example in 1964 Henry Littlefield created an analysis that the Wizard of Oz is political satire (it is not , it has numerous errors) and this created a whole host of meaning that I see as bullocks but hey if it means something to you it means something to you.

So taking my grumbling to this show, what is Ironwood for there are contradictory meanings of what the Tin Man is in other lore. Well in RWBY Ironwood is a contradiction for he wants to be more machine like, he wants the resolve due to his semblance making him have resolve (it is called Mettle) and he can power through when stuff gets weird in the battle. He is frustrated the rest of the world is not like him and thus he creates his iron little soldiers. Furthermore he is frustrated his emotions gives life meaning, but also emotions get in the way of things, and he can not square this contradiction. All too human and the man is self loathing. And self loathing man is abusive.

He wants a hug from Qrow so much in vol 7, I can not wait for Qrow to give him a final hug.

[Rater202]

Okay, looking up the details

Spoiler: V8E12

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Ironwood stripped the flesh from his arm while saying "there's nothing I won't sacrifice" and that's why he got the new prosthetic.

In Ironwood's case, the new prosthetic is symbolic of his willingness to throw away anything, even his flesh and blood, after going off the deep end, and that's why it's presented negatively.

I can understand why that might be uncomfortable, especially compared to Penny becoming flesh and blood human, but I don't think it's intended to be "prosthetic parts make you less human."

I think that is an unintended implication.

[gmoyes]

Spoiler: Volume 8 Chapter 12

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I quite like what they did with Penny this season. She's a better protagonist than team RWBY is. Same with Oscar, even with how boring he is.

I'm more concerned they are sending all the refugees to Vacuo.
The in the middle of a desert Vacuo.
The culture that emphasizes self sufficiency Vacuo.
The city that Salem is going to attack next Vacuo.

Vacuo is not going to be able to feed a few hundred thousand refugees showing up out of the blue. The people will not like having to support a bunch of freeloading nobles. And what is the plan for all these civilians when Salem shows up? Sure it has the only functioning Huntsman Academy for fighters, but even with the entire Huntsmen population if Mistral killed off, we don't ever see them being overrun by Grimm. They are only going to Vacuo because team RWBY is going to Vacuo and is dragging everyone along with them.

[Ramza00]

Okay, looking up the details

Spoiler: V8E12

Show

Ironwood stripped the flesh from his arm while saying "there's nothing I won't sacrifice" and that's why he got the new prosthetic.

In Ironwood's case, the new prosthetic is symbolic of his willingness to throw away anything, even his flesh and blood, after going off the deep end, and that's why it's presented negatively.

I can understand why that might be uncomfortable, especially compared to Penny becoming flesh and blood human, but I don't think it's intended to be "prosthetic parts make you less human."

I think that is an unintended implication.

Yep

Spoiler: Volume 8 Episode 12

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I am confident that the writers are not thinking about this. But if they were they are doing the Tin Man metaphor that tears cause rust, rust cause things to break, must not cry, also no rain or other moisture.

*Sigh*

[Delicious Taffy]

Yep

Spoiler: Volume 8 Episode 12

Show

But if they were they are doing the Tin Man metaphor that tears cause rust, rust cause things to break, must not cry, also no rain or other moisture.

*Sigh*

Spoiler: Volume 8 Episode 12

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So, what you're saying is, they need to dip ol' Jimmy-boy in a nice big puddle of that good dihydrogen monoxide (AKA put 'im in the Drown House)? I'm down for that. I wanna see more actual character death in this show. Our on-screen, present-day body count so far is, what? Pyrrha, Leon or whatever, Old Ozpin, Abmer, Clover, Hazel, and Vernal? Over eight seasons, that's downright tame.

Speaking of Hazel, I really liked him in this season. The second somebody gets through his chickensh** bad-boy front, he Hulks out on Salem and just starts beating her ass. Granted, she's obviously not losing or anything close to it, but I liked seeing that she'd totally be beatable if it weren't for the immortality. Like, sure she's still got all that funky magic and whatever, but she can't take a hit for anything. Probably because she's immortal and never had to learn. Also, Yang got to blow something up right before that, and I like when Yang blows stuff up.

[LaZodiac]

So I've watched the episode now.

Spoiler: V8C12

Show

The context of the line makes it very clear that they are saying that Penny's mechanical body is not really real and doesn't matter. That having a mechanical prosthetic is not actually a real body. You're free to read it differently, but the fact is that's what they're saying. It doesn't help that the actual process that happens here makes no sense as well, the flesh body kinda comes out of complete nowhere, as if removing all the robot bits just generated a true human body for her to have. Almost as if to say, having those robot parts made her inhuman.

Let's also just ignore the fact that according to these nebulous and really, truly undefined rules, why would this protect Penny from the "he can only make one thing at a time" clause? Why does him taking her parts off and then making a new her without her soul that will then die in front of her vanish when he makes a new thing? Why can't they just have him remove the virus? He isn't MAKING anything new, he's using parts that already exist. It absolute nonsense.

and also let me be clear, "Penny is based on Pinnochio so she HAS to get a real body" is ****ing stupid. The fairy tale connective tissue was always annoying, badly utilized if at all, and dumb as hell, and using it as a justification for this absolute monstrosity of a writing decision is ridiculous.

I need anyone who thinks this is a good thing to realize that intent is irrelevant to the actual results. Which, ironically, is very much the flaw of our heroes, who did nothing but make the problem worse by existing.

[Ramza00]

LaZodiac I get it. It stinks. I also have given up with nuance with RWBY that is basic human decency stuff with the whole Faunus debacle.

Please keep dragging RWBY. Stuff like this.

Spoiler: Vol 8 Episode 11, Links an image from twitter

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Mary Cagle
@cubewatermelon
https://twitter.com/cubewatermelon/s...09058445381633
Mar 6
I have once again reached the stage of RWBY madness that can only be expressed in comic form
(Spoilers for the new ep)

[Anyr]

Spoiler: Volume 8 Episode 12

Show

Speaking of Hazel, I really liked him in this season.

Spoiler: Volume 8

Show

Really? I couldn't fathom him. His motivations make no sense to me. He's an apparently compassionate person, with a desire to preserve life; Who also works for the Queen of all Grimm. Hazel despises Ozpin, because Ozpin's scheming played a part in the death of Hazel's sister. But he'll willingly serve the world's most heinous mass murderer. Ever since his introduction, I've been waiting for this contradiction to resolve itself. Would his supposed morals turn out to be an act? Was his service part of a secret plan? Neither, as it turned out. Apparently he works for Salem because...he's scared of her. Oh, and because she offered him revenge against someone he hates. That's it.

All that build up, for nothing. Hazel should have died before the series even began. He should have fought Salem to the bitter end, back when he first challenged her. Why did he decide to help her murder people? I still don't know. I doubt that even the writers could tell me. They don't seem to know either.

[Ramza00]

There is one more thing about Hazel's motivations

Spoiler: Up to Vol 8 Episode 11, aka if you watched all the "free episodes" so far you are caught up

Show

Hazel

1) Hates Ozpin
2) Hates current governments for he learned the truth they are all loosely allied with Ozpin.
3) Knows there is a cosmic war that has lasted at least 100 years, probably thousands of years. Ozpin was king of Vale during the Great War

4) King of Vale (Ozma) won the Great War and he had the Sword of Destruction (also his Scepter the Ozpin Cane.) The 4 kingdoms met on Vytal and the King of Vale was generous with peace terms, abolished slavery, equal rights for the faunus, given the island of Menagerie, founded the 4 Huntsman Academies, etc, etc. Yadda, Yadda, Yadda we are supposed to sympathize with Prof X / Dumbledore / Old Man archetype. [ I don't ]
5) Hazel's sister dies in Ozpin's war.
6) Hazel tries to kill Salem
7) Salem tells him the current broken world is a result of Ozpin, but also the conflict between Ozpin and Salem. Salem saids if she gets the 4 god artifacts she will create a better world.

So pretty much Hazel is a nihilist with a grudge, and besides settling his grudge with Ozpin, thinks letting Salem win will create a better world.

Oscar says no, Salem just wants to die, Hazel does not believe Oscar until Oscar does a leap of faith and tells Hazel the name of the genie, Jinn.

[LaZodiac]

LaZodiac I get it. It stinks. I also have given up with nuance with RWBY that is basic human decency stuff with the whole Faunus debacle.

Please keep dragging RWBY. Stuff like this.

Spoiler: Vol 8 Episode 11, Links an image from twitter

Show

I just wanted to lay out all my thoughts and get them out of my head, is all. I'm glad we're on agreement on this.

Also hey look it's Mary Cagle, I know that lady. She rules and her podcast is good.

[Ramza00]

I just wanted to lay out all my thoughts and get them out of my head, is all. I'm glad we're on agreement on this.

Also hey look it's Mary Cagle, I know that lady. She rules and her podcast is good.

I was thinking about adding another line encouraging your anger and frustrations. They are valid. I was just afraid it would be "too much."

[LaZodiac]

I was thinking about adding another line encouraging your anger and frustrations. They are valid. I was just afraid it would be "too much."

Give into my anger and frustration? Sure thing Friendpatine

[Anyr]

There is one more thing about Hazel's motivations

Spoiler: Up to Vol 8 Episode 11, aka if you watched all the "free episodes" so far you are caught up

Show

Hazel

1) Hates Ozpin
2) Hates current governments for he learned the truth they are all loosely allied with Ozpin.
3) Knows there is a cosmic war that has lasted at least 100 years, probably thousands of years. Ozpin was king of Vale during the Great War

4) King of Vale (Ozma) won the Great War and he had the Sword of Destruction (also his Scepter the Ozpin Cane.) The 4 kingdoms met on Vytal and the King of Vale was generous with peace terms, abolished slavery, equal rights for the faunus, given the island of Menagerie, founded the 4 Huntsman Academies, etc, etc. Yadda, Yadda, Yadda we are supposed to sympathize with Prof X / Dumbledore / Old Man archetype. [ I don't ]
5) Hazel's sister dies in Ozpin's war.
6) Hazel tries to kill Salem
7) Salem tells him the current broken world is a result of Ozpin, but also the conflict between Ozpin and Salem. Salem saids if she gets the 4 god artifacts she will create a better world.

So pretty much Hazel is a nihilist with a grudge, and besides settling his grudge with Ozpin, thinks letting Salem win will create a better world.

Oscar says no, Salem just wants to die, Hazel does not believe Oscar until Oscar does a leap of faith and tells Hazel the name of the genie, Jinn.

Spoiler: Volume 8

Show

That's not a real explanation. Salem leads the Grimm: The race of soulless abominations that keep trying to eat everyone. She's blatantly, undeniably evil. Hazel must know that her desired world will be a nightmare. Salem's other subordinates certainly do. Some are maniacs like Tyrian, who want to see the world destroyed. Some are selfish traitors like Roman and Watts, who believe that they'll stand safely above the burning peasants. Those mindsets aren't compatible with Hazel. In order for his character to work, he needs a more coherent motivation than "I'm scared and want to punch Ozpin".

[Dragonexx]

So I've watched the episode now.

Spoiler: V8C12

Show

The context of the line makes it very clear that they are saying that Penny's mechanical body is not really real and doesn't matter. That having a mechanical prosthetic is not actually a real body. You're free to read it differently, but the fact is that's what they're saying. It doesn't help that the actual process that happens here makes no sense as well, the flesh body kinda comes out of complete nowhere, as if removing all the robot bits just generated a true human body for her to have. Almost as if to say, having those robot parts made her inhuman.

Let's also just ignore the fact that according to these nebulous and really, truly undefined rules, why would this protect Penny from the "he can only make one thing at a time" clause? Why does him taking her parts off and then making a new her without her soul that will then die in front of her vanish when he makes a new thing? Why can't they just have him remove the virus? He isn't MAKING anything new, he's using parts that already exist. It absolute nonsense.

and also let me be clear, "Penny is based on Pinnochio so she HAS to get a real body" is ****ing stupid. The fairy tale connective tissue was always annoying, badly utilized if at all, and dumb as hell, and using it as a justification for this absolute monstrosity of a writing decision is ridiculous.

I need anyone who thinks this is a good thing to realize that intent is irrelevant to the actual results. Which, ironically, is very much the flaw of our heroes, who did nothing but make the problem worse by existing.

Spoiler: S8E12

Show

What's even worse about this is that Penny isn't shown to have any input on this decision to turn her into a "real girl", this is just done for her, seemingly without any decision on her part.

[Ramza00]

Spoiler: Volume 8

Show

That's not a real explanation. Salem leads the Grimm: The race of soulless abominations that keep trying to eat everyone. She's blatantly, undeniably evil. Hazel must know that her desired world will be a nightmare. Salem's other subordinates certainly do. Some are maniacs like Tyrian, who want to see the world destroyed. Some are selfish traitors like Roman and Watts, who believe that they'll stand safely above the burning peasants. Those mindsets aren't compatible with Hazel. In order for his character to work, he needs a more coherent motivation than "I'm scared and want to punch Ozpin".

Hazel and Salem

Spoiler: Volume 8 Episode 11

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1) So you are comparing Salem and the Grimm to a force of nature, like a hurricane.
2) Yet the force of nature has specific goals, and with those goals met one need not do the old behaviors for the behaviors were means to an end. Salem was not doing nasty things (in Hazel's mind) because she likes being Evil.
3) Note the "Grimm" that are not in Salem's direct control may do those things naturally.
4) Pretty much Hazel sees Salem like Storm from the X-Men. A person who can prevent horrible wickedness of the current natural world, and of current man's world (as it is constructed by Ozpin) and one can smash the system and build it anew.

Of course this is pure motivated reasoning on Hazel's part. He has limited information and the more questions asked, and the more information gained from those questions the more you can be confident and certain of Hazel's decision.

Pretty much I am saying Hazel is still doing logic I would not do. I understand his internal consistency but I disagree with it. It makes more sense than what Ironwood and what that Lion's name again is doing. But yeah Ironwood is also doing something that is internally consistent, but once again I say it is a self-serving justification.

*shrug*

The silliness of RWBY from a plot perspective is not the animating forces of Hazel or Ironwood. Half a dozen character motivations make less sense, let alone the actions taken to achieve the "goals" of these internal motivations.

-----

So

Spoiler: Volume 8 Episode 12

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So let's give the writter's a rod of Wish!

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: S8E12

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What's even worse about this is that Penny isn't shown to have any input on this decision to turn her into a "real girl", this is just done for her, seemingly without any decision on her part.

Spoiler: V8C12

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Yeah it took me a bit to click on that. Not only is it super ablest, they also did it without any input from her! Or from her dad, who should technically still be alive in Amity, but I guess no one cares about him now. Especially since you know he could, say, look at Penny and find a way to fix her problem without any divine intervention nonsense.

[Rawhide]

So I've watched the episode now.

Spoiler: V8C12

Show

The context of the line makes it very clear that they are saying that Penny's mechanical body is not really real and doesn't matter. That having a mechanical prosthetic is not actually a real body. You're free to read it differently, but the fact is that's what they're saying. It doesn't help that the actual process that happens here makes no sense as well, the flesh body kinda comes out of complete nowhere, as if removing all the robot bits just generated a true human body for her to have. Almost as if to say, having those robot parts made her inhuman.

Spoiler: v08c12

Show

"makes it very clear"

No, it doesn't. I think you're taking your hate for RWBY and using it to see what you want to see. You've got a preconceived notion you're trying to validate, and have gone into this episode wanting to see a message you created before you had even seen the episode, and now you're finding a way to see it.

The context of the line makes it very clear that they are saying that you are human regardless of what your body is made of. You don't need flesh to be human.

Spoiler: S8E12

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What's even worse about this is that Penny isn't shown to have any input on this decision to turn her into a "real girl", this is just done for her, seemingly without any decision on her part.

Spoiler: v08c12

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Bobbie is dying and agrees to undergo surgery. Bobbie needs to be put into a state where Bobbie can't communicate in any way in order to undergo this surgery. Bobbie agrees and consents to whatever is necessary to keep Bobbie alive.

Penny is in pretty much this exact situation. No one knew what it would entail when they all, together, came up with the request. Everyone had input on the request, Penny even supplied her schematics. No one specifically asked for this exact thing to happen, it is just what the doctor djinn worked out was the only way to save her. He had her consent to do whatever was necessary to save her, and he did.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: v08c12

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"makes it very clear"

No, it doesn't. I think you're taking your hate for RWBY and using it to see what you want to see. You've got a preconceived notion you're trying to validate, and have gone into this episode wanting to see a message you created before you had even seen the episode, and now you're finding a way to see it.

The context of the line makes it very clear that they are saying that you are human regardless of what your body is made of. You don't need flesh to be human.

Spoiler: v08c12

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Bobbie is dying and agrees to undergo surgery. Bobbie needs to be put into a state where Bobbie can't communicate in any way in order to undergo this surgery. Bobbie agrees and consents to whatever is necessary to keep Bobbie alive.

Penny is in pretty much this exact situation. No one knew what it would entail when they all, together, came up with the request. Everyone had input on the request, Penny even supplied her schematics. No one specifically asked for this exact thing to happen, it is just what the doctor djinn worked out was the only way to save her. He had her consent to do whatever was necessary to save her, and he did.

Spoiler: V8C12

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If you don't need flesh to be human, why did they show that then? Why did they have Yang be dismissive of prosthetics by saying it's "just extra". What was the reason for this.

And I didn't WANT to see this happen. I didn't come in here expecting it to conform to my expectations, I was hoping it would not disappoint me. But it did.

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: V8C12

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If you don't need flesh to be human, why did they show that then? Why did they have Yang be dismissive of prosthetics by saying it's "just extra". What was the reason for this.

And I didn't WANT to see this happen. I didn't come in here expecting it to conform to my expectations, I was hoping it would not disappoint me. But it did.

Spoiler: v08c12

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Yang showed that having prosthetics didn't make her any less human.

Maybe you don't consciously think you want to find that, but it's pretty obvious by your prejudices that you do. You'd already made up your mind before you even began to watch it.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: v08c12

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Yang showed that having prosthetics didn't make her any less human.

Maybe you don't consciously think you want to find that, but it's pretty obvious by your prejudices that you do. You'd already made up your mind before you even began to watch it.

Spoiler: V8C12

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Okay. I think you're being disingenuous to me, but I don't really care.

If it "doesn't matter", and that it "doesn't make her any less human" that she had a metal body, why did they (as in, the writers) get rid of it? Why did they put so much emphasis on the fact that now she can feel hugs "for real". As if her previous body couldn't. As if the change from metal to meat was better for her.

Does that not strike you as even a LITTLE weird? If artificial parts are good, why is so much emphasis put on how much better Penny is without it?

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: V8C12

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Okay. I think you're being disingenuous to me, but I don't really care.

If it "doesn't matter", and that it "doesn't make her any less human" that she had a metal body, why did they (as in, the writers) get rid of it? Why did they put so much emphasis on the fact that now she can feel hugs "for real". As if her previous body couldn't. As if the change from metal to meat was better for her.

Does that not strike you as even a LITTLE weird? If artificial parts are good, why is so much emphasis put on how much better Penny is without it?

Spoiler: v08c12

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I don't think I am at all, I'm talking about your perspective and the lens you're seeing RWBY, and especially this episode, from. By the way, it's not meant as an insult, it's just something people do without even realising.

Because a human body can feel hugs in an entirely different way to a metal body? It doesn't mean that everything is better for her, it just means that she is now experiencing something totally new to her.

Fish fingers and custard.

Edit: By the way you accidentally put the opening spoiler tag in the wrong place, causing a slight glitch. I've edited your post to fix it.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: v08c12

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I don't think I am at all, I'm talking about your perspective and the lens you're seeing RWBY, and especially this episode, from. By the way, it's not meant as an insult, it's just something people do without even realising.

Because a human body can feel hugs in an entirely different way to a metal body? It doesn't mean that everything is better for her, it just means that she is now experiencing something totally new to her.

Fish fingers and custard.

Edit: By the way you accidentally put the opening spoiler tag in the wrong place, causing a slight glitch. I've edited your post to fix it.

Thank you, did not notice.

Spoiler: V8C12

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I'm pretty sure Penny's robot body could feel things. And the exact phrase is "do hugs make you feel this warm inside", with the implication that her human self is making it better. Which is a clear example of how it IS saying that her change is "better" for her. Which is nonsense, and feeds into that belief that you are lesser for having prosthetics.

... what is the point of just saying fish fingers and custard?

[Rawhide]

Thank you, did not notice.

Spoiler: V8C12

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I'm pretty sure Penny's robot body could feel things. And the exact phrase is "do hugs make you feel this warm inside", with the implication that her human self is making it better. Which is a clear example of how it IS saying that her change is "better" for her. Which is nonsense, and feeds into that belief that you are lesser for having prosthetics.

... what is the point of just saying fish fingers and custard?

Spoiler: v08c12

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Her robot body could sense things. It's entirely different to having trillions of nerve endings. It's an entirely different and new experience for her, just like when The Doctor got a new body.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: v08c12

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Her robot body could sense things. It's entirely different to having trillions of nerve endings. It's an entirely different and new experience for her, just like when The Doctor got a new body.

Spoiler: V8C12

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Ah, okay, a reference I don't get.

Anyway, you at least see where I'm coming from right? That the implication is there, that Penny was inferior, or wrong, or "incomplete" in a way because she lacked a human body, and her getting it fixed all that, and how that feels pretty negative to people with prosthetics, yeah?

[Rater202]

If I might make a non-RWBY example for how different people might see these things?

Spoiler: Still kinda soilers for V8E12

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A few years ago, Marvel did a mini-series called Venomverse, being a Spider-Verse spinoff starring differant versions of Venom instead of differant versions of Spider-Man.

One of the alternate Venoms, Ngozi, was a teenaged athlete and bug collecting enthusiast from Nigeria. Her athletic career was cut short when she was left paralyzed from the waist down by a bus crash.

She adjusted to life in a wheel-chair but was still... Upset? Resentful? I'm not sure what the right word to use is that she could no longer walk.

One day, while out collecting grasshoppers, something peculiar happened: Spider-Man and Hulk villain the Rhino was hunting the Venom symbiote for unknown reasons, and somehow tracked it to Nigeria, being pursued in turn by The Black Panther. T'Challa put up a good fight but The Black Panther is, physically, not on the same level as the Rhino and he was getting his ass kicked.

The Symbiote, trying to avoid being captured, bonded to Ngozi. At first, the girl was terrified both by the symbiote at the nearby superhero battle, but once she realized the symbiote granted her powers—and restored her ability to walk—she immediately jumped into the fight to help the Black Panther.

The T'Challa of her universe ultimately died from his injuries, but the bravery and good nature demonstrated by immediately getting involved to try and help as soon as she was physically able to lead to her being recruited into the Dora Milage and eventually becoming the Interim Black Panther until a member of the Royal family suited to be a monarch came of age. (It is implied but not stated that the Wakandan Herb caused her to be permanently bonded to the symbiote.)

Naturally, Ngozi was happy to be able to walk again.

A woman by the name of Jazmine Joyer rote and article that stated that Ngozi and her origin story are ableist, depicting the inability to walk as an inherently bad thing that needs to be fixed, but...

I don't see it. I do not see how depicting a teenager who was upset over losing her ability to walk in a freak accident being happy that she was given the ability to walk again is ableist and is making a statement about anything but that one character's opinion. The comic never implies that being disabled makes you less, only that this one character isn't happy about it but is in turn happy to no longer need special accommodations to deal with it.

Having read the article and Ngozi's origin story, I can see where the woman is coming from, but I don't see it.

Side note, I really like Ngozi's design.

Spoiler

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From what I know, I don't think that "it's just extra" is inherently invalidating prosthetics. From what I know of Yang, it's in character for her to think of her arm as less part of her body and more a tool, something above and beyond herself that makes up for shortcomings caused by her injury... Especially since her prosthetic is also a gun.

I can also see Penny, who was self-conscious about being a robot in her first appearances, enjoying being able to feel a sensation as a flesh and blood person.

But, I can also understand why Zodi is seeing the ableist themes there. Especially since the emphasis is placed on Ironwood's new prosthetic as symbolic of his willingness to cast aside his humanity to defeat Salem what with his only needing it because he maimed himself to secure a victory over an enemy.

[LaZodiac]

If I might make a non-RWBY example for how different people might see these things?

Spoiler: Still kinda soilers for V8E12

Show

A few years ago, Marvel did a mini-series called Venomverse, being a Spider-Verse spinoff starring differant versions of Venom instead of differant versions of Spider-Man.

One of the alternate Venoms, Ngozi, was a teenaged athlete and bug collecting enthusiast from Nigeria. Her athletic career was cut short when she was left paralyzed from the waist down by a bus crash.

She adjusted to life in a wheel-chair but was still... Upset? Resentful? I'm not sure what the right word to use is that she could no longer walk.

One day, while out collecting grasshoppers, something peculiar happened: Spider-Man and Hulk villain the Rhino was hunting the Venom symbiote for unknown reasons, and somehow tracked it to Nigeria, being pursued in turn by The Black Panther. T'Challa put up a good fight but The Black Panther is, physically, not on the same level as the Rhino and he was getting his ass kicked.

The Symbiote, trying to avoid being captured, bonded to Ngozi. At first, the girl was terrified both by the symbiote at the nearby superhero battle, but once she realized the symbiote granted her powers—and restored her ability to walk—she immediately jumped into the fight to help the Black Panther.

The T'Challa of her universe ultimately died from his injuries, but the bravery and good nature demonstrated by immediately getting involved to try and help as soon as she was physically able to lead to her being recruited into the Dora Milage and eventually becoming the Interim Black Panther until a member of the Royal family suited to be a monarch came of age. (It is implied but not stated that the Wakandan Herb caused her to be permanently bonded to the symbiote.)

Naturally, Ngozi was happy to be able to walk again.

A woman by the name of Jazmine Joyer rote and article that stated that Ngozi and her origin story are ableist, depicting the inability to walk as an inherently bad thing that needs to be fixed, but...

I don't see it. I do not see how depicting a teenager who was upset over losing her ability to walk in a freak accident being happy that she was given the ability to walk again is ableist and is making a statement about anything but that one character's opinion. The comic never implies that being disabled makes you less, only that this one character isn't happy about it but is in turn happy to no longer need special accommodations to deal with it.

Having read the article and Ngozi's origin story, I can see where the woman is coming from, but I don't see it.

Side note, I really like Ngozi's design.

Spoiler

Show

From what I know, I don't think that "it's just extra" is inherently invalidating prosthetics. From what I know of Yang, it's in character for her to think of her arm as less part of her body and more a tool, something above and beyond herself that makes up for shortcomings caused by her injury... Especially since her prosthetic is also a gun.

I can also see Penny, who was self-conscious about being a robot in her first appearances, enjoying being able to feel a sensation as a flesh and blood person.

But, I can also understand why Zodi is seeing the ableist themes there. Especially since the emphasis is placed on Ironwood's new prosthetic as symbolic of his willingness to cast aside his humanity to defeat Salem what with his only needing it because he maimed himself to secure a victory over an enemy.

Spoiler: V8C12

Show

Very well said, but I think something also needs to be said regarding Penny.

She was concerned about her being a robot in season 2. And then they resolved that by having a discussion about how Ruby can tell she has a soul and they hugged and it was good.

Penny, when we next meet her in season SEVEN, has embraced herself. She's fine with being a robot. There is nothing TO FIX. By presenting it like there is, they are saying that she shouldn't be happy being a robot. This, coupled with Ironwood's presentation and Yang's saying "it's just extra parts" are what make it ablest.

Ultimately, it is going to be different for everyone. You don't have to see it my way. But you can at least see WHY I see it that way, and understand how being presented with "boy it sure sucks being disabled, glad I got a super power or divine intervention taht fixed this" could be taken negatively, especially by kids who ARE disabled, and thus have to live with it. They deserve better representation than this.