rwbyOS X: Even the Thread Gets a Costume Change!

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: V8C12

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Ah, okay, a reference I don't get.

Anyway, you at least see where I'm coming from right? That the implication is there, that Penny was inferior, or wrong, or "incomplete" in a way because she lacked a human body, and her getting it fixed all that, and how that feels pretty negative to people with prosthetics, yeah?

Spoiler: v08c12

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I understand what you're trying to say, but I disagree that the implication is there. In fact, I think they've managed to flip the entire "When I grow up, I want to be a real boy!" on its head and make the transition not about being in any way inferior.

There are things you simply cannot do with prosthetics, and no amount of wishful thinking will ever change that, just like there are some things you cannot do with flesh and bone. Her experiences are going to be different to her experiences in the mechanical body. Some things will be better, some things will... definitely not be, but they are all going to be new. Heck, she might even prefer her new human body overall, but it still doesn't mean she wasn't human before or was any less human for having a mechanical body, nor does it imply that.

P.S. Let's imagine for a moment that Penny's entire desire from the very beginning was to have a completely flesh and bone human body (it wasn't, but let's run with it). How many people with prosthetics due to do you know if, given the choice, would choose to keep the prosthetics over completely (re)growing their limb(s) in a fully functional state? Even if they're completely, 100% happy with their prosthetics, most would choose to (re)grow their limb(s) if given the option. Now, if someone was given that option and takes it, were they any less human before they (re)grew their limb(s)? Does having a desire to have their limb(s)/limb(s) back mean they thought of themselves as less human? We're already seeing people use modern laser surgery to remove prosthetics (well, glasses). Are you implying that they were less human for previously needing a device to correct their vision but wanting to get rid of it?

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: v08c12

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I understand what you're trying to say, but I disagree that the implication is there. In fact, I think they've managed to flip the entire "When I grow up, I want to be a real boy!" on its head and make the transition not about being in any way inferior.

There are things you simply cannot do with prosthetics, and no amount of wishful thinking will ever change that, just like there are some things you cannot do with flesh and bone. Her experiences are going to be different to her experiences in the mechanical body. Some things will be better, some things will... definitely not be, but they are all going to be new. Heck, she might even prefer her new human body overall, but it still doesn't mean she wasn't human before or was any less human for having a mechanical body, nor does it imply that.

P.S. Let's imagine for a moment that Penny's entire desire from the very beginning was to have a completely flesh and bone human body (it wasn't, but let's run with it). How many people with prosthetics due to do you know if, given the choice, would choose to keep the prosthetics over completely (re)growing their limb(s) in a fully functional state? Even if they're completely, 100% happy with their prosthetics, most would choose to (re)grow their limb(s) if given the option. Now, if someone was given that option and takes it, were they any less human before they (re)grew their limb(s)? Does having a desire to have their limb(s)/limb(s) back mean they thought of themselves as less human? We're already seeing people use modern laser surgery to remove prosthetics (well, glasses). Are you implying that they were less human for previously needing a device to correct their vision but wanting to get rid of it?

Spoiler: V8C12

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The implication is there, and they've flipped nothing so far. They directly showed us that it's superior because it makes her more human. Penny being human was never in doubt, but the explicit text of the scene is that Penny can now feel things, which is an improvement. Now, there is a chance that next episode will actually do something with this; showing Penny getting fatigued cause that's a thing now, or dealing with things like Food, but... I don't actually have faith in RT's ability to write this.

Regarding the question of disabled people getting "their limbs back"; literally no disabled person I know would want that. The mentality that most WOULD take that offer is ablest. And no, of course not, having a desire to regain your limbs doesn't make you less human, the IDEA that you NEED your limbs back IS. How have you missed this? This question makes no sense and has nothing to do with the conversation. The issue is that the show IS saying "Penny not having a real body made her less human", not that simply wanting a real body is dehumanizing. It is VERY likely that if someone who has prosthetics and wants to replace them with real human limbs again feels like they're less human, and it's because of **** LIKE THIS!

I really do not understand this last paragraph of yours, honestly. I did my best to answer it. I don't get why you're framing things as if I'm the one implying they're "less human" for wanting to fix their eyes, because I'm not. I'm absolutely on the side of the opposite; you don't need this **** to be human. I have glasses, and I would never get corrective surgery. Partly because having glasses is normalized as "oh it's just a natural part of you, it is fine".

Prosthetic limbs are NOT normalized like that, and THAT is the problem here. RWBY is coming from a position, intentional or not, that says prosthetic limbs shouldn't be normalized. That they're not a part of you, but something that clearly has to be fixed. Because it's not "real", it's just "extra parts". And that sickens me.

Look, Rawhide. I'm a trans woman. When the time comes my body is going to be surgically altered to fit me. I'm coming from a place that understands this ****. To try and put things in perspective for you, this would be like a trans woman saying their surgical changes don't make them a real woman. This is what this feels like to me.

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: V8C12

Show

The implication is there, and they've flipped nothing so far. They directly showed us that it's superior because it makes her more human. Penny being human was never in doubt, but the explicit text of the scene is that Penny can now feel things, which is an improvement. Now, there is a chance that next episode will actually do something with this; showing Penny getting fatigued cause that's a thing now, or dealing with things like Food, but... I don't actually have faith in RT's ability to write this.

Regarding the question of disabled people getting "their limbs back"; literally no disabled person I know would want that. The mentality that most WOULD take that offer is ablest. And no, of course not, having a desire to regain your limbs doesn't make you less human, the IDEA that you NEED your limbs back IS. How have you missed this? This question makes no sense and has nothing to do with the conversation. The issue is that the show IS saying "Penny not having a real body made her less human", not that simply wanting a real body is dehumanizing. It is VERY likely that if someone who has prosthetics and wants to replace them with real human limbs again feels like they're less human, and it's because of **** LIKE THIS!

I really do not understand this last paragraph of yours, honestly. I did my best to answer it. I don't get why you're framing things as if I'm the one implying they're "less human" for wanting to fix their eyes, because I'm not. I'm absolutely on the side of the opposite; you don't need this **** to be human. I have glasses, and I would never get corrective surgery. Partly because having glasses is normalized as "oh it's just a natural part of you, it is fine".

Prosthetic limbs are NOT normalized like that, and THAT is the problem here. RWBY is coming from a position, intentional or not, that says prosthetic limbs shouldn't be normalized. That they're not a part of you, but something that clearly has to be fixed. Because it's not "real", it's just "extra parts". And that sickens me.

Look, Rawhide. I'm a trans woman. When the time comes my body is going to be surgically altered to fit me. I'm coming from a place that understands this ****. To try and put things in perspective for you, this would be like a trans woman saying their surgical changes don't make them a real woman. This is what this feels like to me.

Spoiler: v08c12

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No, the implication is not there, and they have done nothing of the sort.

Literally every disabled person I know would take up the offer if they could. I included the glasses example specifically because people already do. People who had glasses their entire lives received laser eye surgery so they don't have to use glasses anymore. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that wouldn't, they feel better about themselves because of their prosthetics. Heck, there are definitely people out there that want to replace their fully functional limbs with cybertechnology (that doesn't exist yet). But it doesn't change the fact that these people I know, despite being happy as they are, would rather be able to walk than need a wheelchair if that was an option to them, for example.

The show does not in any way imply that you NEED your limbs back. In fact, as already mentioned, Yang took a journey from feeling less for not having her limb to realising she was still everything she was before.

I'm framing it that way because that's exactly what you're saying. You're saying that anyone who wants a part of them changed thinks of themselves as less human.

"When the time comes my body is going to be surgically altered to fit me."
Are you saying that you are less of a woman now because you haven't had surgery yet? I don't believe that's your intent, but the implication is there.

"this would be like a trans woman saying their surgical changes don't make them a real woman."
No, what you're saying is like saying that a trans woman isn't a real woman because they haven't had surgery. Can you see how insulting this is to people with prosthetics who would ditch them if they could?

[Rater202]

Spoiler: V8C12

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The implication is there, and they've flipped nothing so far. They directly showed us that it's superior because it makes her more human. Penny being human was never in doubt, but the explicit text of the scene is that Penny can now feel things, which is an improvement. Now, there is a chance that next episode will actually do something with this; showing Penny getting fatigued cause that's a thing now, or dealing with things like Food, but... I don't actually have faith in RT's ability to write this.

Regarding the question of disabled people getting "their limbs back"; literally no disabled person I know would want that. The mentality that most WOULD take that offer is ablest. And no, of course not, having a desire to regain your limbs doesn't make you less human, the IDEA that you NEED your limbs back IS. How have you missed this? This question makes no sense and has nothing to do with the conversation. The issue is that the show IS saying "Penny not having a real body made her less human", not that simply wanting a real body is dehumanizing. It is VERY likely that if someone who has prosthetics and wants to replace them with real human limbs again feels like they're less human, and it's because of **** LIKE THIS!

I really do not understand this last paragraph of yours, honestly. I did my best to answer it. I don't get why you're framing things as if I'm the one implying they're "less human" for wanting to fix their eyes, because I'm not. I'm absolutely on the side of the opposite; you don't need this **** to be human. I have glasses, and I would never get corrective surgery. Partly because having glasses is normalized as "oh it's just a natural part of you, it is fine".

Prosthetic limbs are NOT normalized like that, and THAT is the problem here. RWBY is coming from a position, intentional or not, that says prosthetic limbs shouldn't be normalized. That they're not a part of you, but something that clearly has to be fixed. Because it's not "real", it's just "extra parts". And that sickens me.

Look, Rawhide. I'm a trans woman. When the time comes my body is going to be surgically altered to fit me. I'm coming from a place that understands this ****. To try and put things in perspective for you, this would be like a trans woman saying their surgical changes don't make them a real woman. This is what this feels like to me.

Spoiler: V8E12 Kinda

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I'm a bit confused.

Aren't transwomen already real women? I thought the surgery was just to make the outside match the inside. The inside is the important part and...

...And I think I understand your position on this better now.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: v08c12

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No, the implication is not there, and they have done nothing of the sort.

Literally every disabled person I know would take up the offer if they could. I included the glasses example specifically because people already do. People who had glasses their entire lives received laser eye surgery so they don't have to use glasses anymore. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that wouldn't, they feel better about themselves because of their prosthetics. Heck, there are definitely people out there that want to replace their fully functional limbs with cybertechnology (that doesn't exist yet). But it doesn't change the fact that these people I know, despite being happy as they are, would rather be able to walk than need a wheelchair if that was an option to them, for example.

The show does not in any way imply that you NEED your limbs back. In fact, as already mentioned, Yang took a journey from feeling less for not having her limb to realising she was still everything she was before.

I'm framing it that way because that's exactly what you're saying. You're saying that anyone who wants a part of them changed thinks of themselves as less human.

"When the time comes my body is going to be surgically altered to fit me."
Are you saying that you are less of a woman now because you haven't had surgery yet? I don't believe that's your intent, but the implication is there.

"this would be like a trans woman saying their surgical changes don't make them a real woman."
No, what you're saying is like saying that a trans woman isn't a real woman because they haven't had surgery. Can you see how insulting this is to people with prosthetics who would ditch them if they could?

Spoiler: V8C12

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The implication is there.

Be that as it may, the point I'm making is that they ARE NOT less human for being disabled. I am NOT saying otherwise, stop assuming I am.

"I'm framing it that way because that's exactly what you're saying. You're saying that anyone who wants a part of them changed thinks of themselves as less human."
This right here? This is inflammatory! I'm not saying that at all! And I'm not implying I'm less of a woman because I haven't had surgery yet, I'm saying that OTHER PEOPLE DO THINK THAT. I DO NOT! And don't try to police me, or get me in a 'gotcha' about ****ing Trans people Rawhide. I would never, and DID NOT, say that you NEED surgery.

I have not ever said that people who wish to replace their prosthetics with flesh and blood are less human. I cannot begin to see how you saw this. Everyone deserves the right to feel comfortable in their own bodies. If a disabled person wants to "fix" themselves, they can go ahead and do so. They do not NEED to though, and the mentality of "I need to fix my disabled bits" is ****ing heinous and should be removed. No one needs to conform to society's ****ed up standards of beauty and "humanness".

At this point it is clear we're never going to be able to have a civil conversation about this because it is too personal for me, {Scrubbed}, so I'm going to drop this conversation. {Scrubbed}

Spoiler: V8E12 Kinda

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I'm a bit confused.

Aren't transwomen already real women? I thought the surgery was just to make the outside match the inside. The inside is the important part and...

...And I think I understand your position on this better now.

Spoiler: V8C12

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Yes, that's correct, Rater. But other people would disagree, and dysphoria is a real thing, as well as feeling like you're "not real". Because stuff like being trans isn't normalized, there's still media and people who depict it as bad, and so on. I wish I could live in a world where no one had to feel inadequate or "fake" because of societal pressure, but that's just not how the world is right now. The inside, the soul to use RWBY's terminology, IS important. But it can be important without also diminishing the fact that some people's outsides won't ever match the human standard.

This is why I'm kind of incensed about this. RT has a big fanbase, they need to be better about this stuff. Saying an artificial arm is "just extra" is dehumanizing to someone who has a prosthetic arm. No one needs to conform to the body standard, and it is genuinely disgusting to me that they've, intentionally or not, presented that "actually they should be. Can't you see how happy Penny is now that she can feel. It'd be better if no one had lost body parts."

This, by the way, is why I've tried to stay clear of RWBY in a personal capacity.

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: V8C12

Show

The implication is there.

Be that as it may, the point I'm making is that they ARE NOT less human for being disabled. I am NOT saying otherwise, stop assuming I am.

"I'm framing it that way because that's exactly what you're saying. You're saying that anyone who wants a part of them changed thinks of themselves as less human."
This right here? This is inflammatory! I'm not saying that at all! And I'm not implying I'm less of a woman because I haven't had surgery yet, I'm saying that OTHER PEOPLE DO THINK THAT. I DO NOT! And don't try to police me, or get me in a 'gotcha' about ****ing Trans people Rawhide. I would never, and DID NOT, say that you NEED surgery.

I have not ever said that people who wish to replace their prosthetics with flesh and blood are less human. I cannot begin to see how you saw this. Everyone deserves the right to feel comfortable in their own bodies. If a disabled person wants to "fix" themselves, they can go ahead and do so. They do not NEED to though, and the mentality of "I need to fix my disabled bits" is ****ing heinous and should be removed. No one needs to conform to society's ****ed up standards of beauty and "humanness".

At this point it is clear we're never going to be able to have a civil conversation about this because it is too personal for me, and you refuse to actually understand what I'm saying, so I'm going to drop this conversation. All I ask is, and I mean this with utter sincerity, please learn critical thinking skills.

Spoiler: v08c12

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Yes, that's exactly what you're saying. I know you don't mean to, I know you're not any less of a woman, but the way you've framed your argument here implies that any person who wants to change themselves is less of a person until they do.

If a trans woman wants to have surgery, does that mean she is any less of a woman how she is now?
If someone with glasses wants to have laser eye surgery so they don't need glasses, does that make them any less of a human how they are now?
If a person with prosthetics wants to replace a lost limb wants to have that limb back, does that many them any less of a human how they are now?
If a person who requires a wheelchair wants to be able to walk, does that make them any less of a human how they are now?
If a person who is blind wants to be able to see, does that make them any less of a human how they are now?
If a person who is deaf wants to be able to hear, does that make them any less of a human how they are now?
If a person with an entirely mechanical body wants to have a flesh and bone body, does that make them any less human how they are now?

Obviously, the answer to all of those is no, these people are definitely not in any way less.

Having something about you that you want to change, does not mean you're any less of a human (or woman, as per the first example) for having that aspect you want to change. Nor does enjoying your change mean that you were any less beforehand.

When you have your surgery, will you be any more woman than you are now? I'm pretty sure that the answer will be "No, I'm already a woman, but I'll feel better about myself".

You are a woman, I'm definitely not going to say (or even think - to be clear on the wording) otherwise, and I'm certainly not going to "tone police" you regarding it. This isn't some "gotcha moment", you are the one who brought up trans as an analogy, I'm just correcting that analogy. But what you're saying now is that you cannot have a story where someone wants to change some part of themselves, because that means the story is somehow implying that they are less of a human until they have changed it.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: v08c12

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Yes, that's exactly what you're saying. I know you don't mean to, I know you're not any less of a woman, but the way you've framed your argument here implies that any person who wants to change themselves is less of a person until they do.

If a trans woman wants to have surgery, does that mean she is any less of a woman how she is now?
If someone with glasses wants to have laser eye surgery so they don't need glasses, does that make them any less of a human how they are now?
If a person with prosthetics wants to replace a lost limb wants to have that limb back, does that many them any less of a human how they are now?
If a person who requires a wheelchair wants to be able to walk, does that make them any less of a human how they are now?
If a person who is blind wants to be able to see, does that make them any less of a human how they are now?
If a person who is deaf wants to be able to hear, does that make them any less of a human how they are now?
If a person with an entirely mechanical body wants to have a flesh and bone body, does that make them any less human how they are now?

Obviously, the answer to all of those is no, these people are definitely not in any way less.

Having something about you that you want to change, does not mean you're any less of a human (or woman, as per the first example) for having that aspect you want to change. Nor does enjoying your change mean that you were any less beforehand.

When you have your surgery, will you be any more woman than you are now? I'm pretty sure that the answer will be "No, I'm already a woman, but I'll feel better about myself".

You are a woman, I'm definitely not going to say (or even think - to be clear on the wording) otherwise, and I'm certainly not going to "tone police" you regarding it. This isn't some "gotcha moment", you are the one who brought up trans, I'm just correcting the analogy. But what you're saying now is that you cannot have a story where someone wants to change some part of themselves, because that means the story is somehow implying that they are less of a human until they have changed it.

Spoiler: V8C12

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That's not what I'm saying.

You can absolutely have stories where people want to change things about themselves. But it has to be executed well, and you need to be cautious because you will run into things like what we've been discussing for the last three pages. We'll get people who feel, rightly justified, that the writing is saying that they're less human for having disabilities. That their only solution is to hope a magical wizard artifact gives them a "real" body. That until they get that, they're not complete. This is what the show has done, and if you can read poor implications into my angry posts, you can read it into the show.

But whatever. This is the last thing I'm saying about this. I have better things to do.

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: V8C12

Show

That's not what I'm saying.

You can absolutely have stories where people want to change things about themselves. But it has to be executed well, and you need to be cautious because you will run into things like what we've been discussing for the last three pages. We'll get people who feel, rightly justified, that the writing is saying that they're less human for having disabilities. That their only solution is to hope a magical wizard artifact gives them a "real" body. That until they get that, they're not complete. This is what the show has done, and if you can read poor implications into my angry posts, you can read it into the show.

But whatever. This is the last thing I'm saying about this. I have better things to do.

Spoiler: v08c12

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I see no such implication from the show, I've watched this episode multiple times now and it's pretty clear that it is doing the exact opposite. Especially so given Yang's story arc regarding her arm.

There is definitely, 100% no intended implication that people are in any way less for having prosthetics, nor do I see any such unintended implication.

[Ramza00]

This is why there is a distinction between the words Less and Fewer. Some things can be counted, others things can not be counted.

Likewise the difference between less and fewer is also used differently when we are talking about individual items and collective nouns.

—————

We as humans should not use the word less when talking about another person’s humanity, nor human experiences. We as humans have other language words for descriptors.

This is not being pedantic, and I myself as a dyslexic struggle with language issues all the time. Finding the right words can be hard, and sometimes they just come out in a way that I did not mean. Yet it is important to find the right language for language literally changes individual experiences, and how two people (or more) interact with one another

[Rawhide]

This is why there is a distinction between the words Less and Fewer. Some things can be counted, others things can not be counted.

Likewise the difference between less and fewer is also used differently when we are talking about individual items and collective nouns.

—————

We as humans should not use the word less when talking about another person’s humanity, nor human experiences. We as humans have other language words for descriptors.

This is not being pedantic, and I myself as a dyslexic struggle with language issues all the time. Finding the right words can be hard, and sometimes they just come out in a way that I did not mean. Yet it is important to find the right language for language literally changes individual experiences, and how two people (or more) interact with one another

Except, that there is no such distinction.

[Ramza00]

Except, that there is no such distinction.

You obviously did not watch the same video I watched. I was talking about the why you may not want to use the word Less in a situation, and the MW editor explains it.

She then explains that humans are messy with language and there is no “rule” behind it.

We are not talking about rules here, we are talking about being decent to one another, and you should not use less with describing differences in human populations. I tired of people telling me for a decade (they do not do so now, for the culture changed) that me being gay-bisexual makes me less than the “normative” which is defaulted to heterosexuality.

Arguing the schematics that no it does not make me less or not less really does not matter for it was not about grammar or the science and so on.

It was merely accidental and sometimes intentional rudeness.

Creating a hierarchy or a great chain of being is very human, we have had slavery and racial caste in some cultures longer than there has been writing. (This is the standard you are using with your history video from the MW editor, you are arguing history and frequency.). It does not matter if people are anti-egalitarian in human history it is still wrong and it is still rude (whether accidental or intentional.)

[LaZodiac]

Except, that there is no such distinction.

There actually is though. They're different words, you can't just use one for the other.

[Rawhide]

You obviously did not watch the same video I watched. I was talking about the why you may not want to use the word Less in a situation, and the MW editor explains it.

She then explains that humans are messy with language and there is no “rule” behind it.

We are not talking about rules here, we are talking about being decent to one another, and you should not use less with describing differences in human populations. I tired of people telling me for a decade (they do not do so now, for the culture changed) that me being gay-bisexual makes me less than the “normative which is heterosexuality.

Arguing the schematics that no it does not make me less or not less really does not matter for it was not about grammar or the science and so on.

It was merely accidental and sometimes intentional rudeness.

Creating a hierarchy or a great chain of being is very human, we have had slavery and racial caste in some cultures longer than there has been writing. (This is the standard you are using with your history video from the MW editor, you are arguing history and frequency.). It does not matter if people are anti-egalitarian in human history it is still wrong and it is still rude (whether accidental or intentional.)

There's a common "distinction" that started 200 years ago. Except, it never really started. It wasn't a distinction then, it wasn't distinction before that, and it wasn't a distinction after that (no matter how much grammarians tried to make it so). The people trying to correct "less" to "fewer" are the ones who are incorrect (and usually quite rude).

I'm actually unsure why you brought up "fewer" at all. No one would say "fewer of a person". However, less means more than just a number. You might very well say "there is less water in the cup today", but you'd never say "there is fewer water in the cup today". You might also talk about how an activity got someone punished "I wouldn't do it, Bob was expelled for less", but not "I wouldn't do it, Bob was expelled for fewer".

The phrase "less of a person" and "less of a [human | human being]" are used commonly. See an example of quotations from major publications listed here and here.

Less is an appropriate word in this case.

And, just in case you weren't reading the same thread I was, I think I was pretty clear that a person's differences do not make them any less of a person/human. You definitely are not any less for your differences and I'm sorry that people treated you and made you feel that way.

There actually is though. They're different words, you can't just use one for the other.

That article actually backed up the video I linked? It even provided examples of when the "rule" (or rather guideline) that you should use fewer definitely doesn't apply.

There are times where you would less but not fewer. Less has a greater range of definitions than fewer has. I'm hard pressed to find an example of when fewer can be used but less cannot, though. There are definitely times where fewer sounds better, but where less is still appropriate.

[Rawhide]

Actually, you know what? I think we've gone way off topic here, myself included (reprimands self). I'm loathe to use moderator powers to end a discussion that I'm involved in, because it means that I effectively get the final word, but I feel that we really should get it back on track. I'm happy to discuss my or anyone else's use of the word "less" in PMs and invite you to if you still have any issues with it. I promise to listen to your viewpoints and explain mine.

Please, everyone, let's get back on topic!

[Dragonexx]

https://itsclydebitches.tumblr.com/p...bout-penny-her

This article goes into a decent explanation of the issue.

[Ramza00]

Sidenote Penny is easily the best character of them all in this show about fairy tales and wizard of oz characters.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: V8E12 question

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...Is the RubyxPenny ship-name still "Nuts and Dolts?"

Because that's a pun that doesn't make sense if one of the parties isn't a robot.

[Angel Bob]

Spoiler: v08c12

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"makes it very clear"

No, it doesn't. I think you're taking your hate for RWBY and using it to see what you want to see. You've got a preconceived notion you're trying to validate, and have gone into this episode wanting to see a message you created before you had even seen the episode, and now you're finding a way to see it.

I've been lurking in this thread for about a year now, and I have to agree with Rawhide on this. I like Mary Cagle's comics as much as the next girl - she's a really smart and incisive critic and writer - but she decided long ago that this show will never be good, that the writers are incompetent bigots, and that every plot point was either written with no forethought at all, or written to personally victimize Cagle's band of hate-watchers. Is it any wonder that she draws the exact same conclusions from every episode?

To clarify, I say this as someone who is tepid on RWBY at best. I evaluate this show like I evaluate webcomics (Cagle's among them) - I keep my expectations low, and I'm pleasantly surprised when they're met or exceeded. Watching the show this way, I find most of RWBY to be... almost good, and improving with each season. I sometimes walk away disappointed, but I'm almost always entertained. There have been some really good highs (Blake & Yang vs. Adam, most of the V7 finale), and some pretty bad lows (catgirl racism, the entirety of Clover). Which brings me to the on-topic part:

Spoiler: V8C12

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Last year, the RWBY writers specified that they didn't intend Penny to be coded as trans (or other identities). This episode explains why: they probably knew, on some level, that this storyline would not make a good allegory for othered people. However, just like Qrow "respecting" Clover in V7, I don't think they did a good job of distinguishing their plotline from othered experiences. And that makes this situation a real mess.

I've seen a great diversity of posts about Penny's transformation from various people who relate(d) to her. Some really liked this development, some really didn't, and some were pretty mixed and didn't know what to think. I think this post balances a charitable interpretation of the writers' intent with a critical assessment of the writing's impact. That person also wrote an earlier post that mentioned the writers' tactlessness with this subject, and somewhat predicted a misfire like this.

At the end of the day, I don't personally find this development offensive, but it does feel unnecessary and clumsy. Penny already received affirmation from the maiden powers in V7, and she didn't need further validation. Something that stands out is Weiss saying "We don't have any other options" - but did they not even attempt to contact Pietro and have him run some anti-malware protections?

I'm reserving my full judgment until V8 wraps up - but, much like Clover, this seems like an entirely preventable controversy.

[LaZodiac]

https://itsclydebitches.tumblr.com/p...bout-penny-her

This article goes into a decent explanation of the issue.

I'm glad this was posted, because it says in a slightly more eloquent way what I figured everyone would realize from what I was saying myself.

It's also a strong reminder that my making the protagonist of my novel series disabled by the results of the first book the right choice.

Spoiler: V8E12 question

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...Is the RubyxPenny ship-name still "Nuts and Dolts?"

Because that's a pun that doesn't make sense if one of the parties isn't a robot.

Spoiler: V8C12

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Turning Penny human ruined literally every aspect of her, including the dumb ship name. It's horrible.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: V8C12

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Turning Penny human ruined literally every aspect of her, including the dumb ship name. It's horrible.

Spoiler: V8C12

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I haven't been watching the show, but turning Penny human? worst move. never watching again.

I don't even care about the ableist stuff or deeper themes, I just like robot girls. and friendly robots in general. they're cool.

that and there is a sci-fi philosophical argument to consider whether the new human penny is the real penny, or just a organic clone of her formed from material that made the old due to the amount of stuff that would have to be replaced for the transformation to make sense, but thats a different thing.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: V8C12

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I haven't been watching the show, but turning Penny human? worst move. never watching again.

I don't even care about the ableist stuff or deeper themes, I just like robot girls. and friendly robots in general. they're cool.

that and there is a sci-fi philosophical argument to consider whether the new human penny is the real penny, or just a organic clone of her formed from material that made the old due to the amount of stuff that would have to be replaced for the transformation to make sense, but thats a different thing.

Spoiler: v8e12

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The last bit doesn't apply. Something wibbly regarding Penny's soul being separate from her programming.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: v8e12

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The last bit doesn't apply. Something wibbly regarding Penny's soul being separate from her programming.

Spoiler: v8e12

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Well at least they were aware enough to patch that up.

But yeah, I blame this on Roosterteeth being a bunch of comedians who never should've gotten into ridiculous anime drama. because they clearly screw up royally at every turn at it. their drama in RvB worked because it was so down to earth and based in Halo's rules of its universe, but here they simply can't seem to grasp the genre or the point of this or that, or how to wield its plot devices properly. RWBY is clearly a supers kind of genre, and you don't take away uniqueness from a protagonist in a supers world. I may agree with the points Zodi made, but even disregarding that, there is a lot of writing problems:

-Penny isn't unique anymore. the robot thing made her stand out. now she is human, sure she technically has a happy ending.....but now she doesn't have a story anymore. she isn't technically relevant anymore. in a cast full of superpowers thats bad, you got to have a thing to bring to the table no one else does.

-now sure you can say "But Pinocchio though" but the thing is with THAT, is you have ask the important, most relevant million dollar question: Was It Earned? Did the writers make this character go through hell and highwater, what challenges did they face to get there, what was the JOURNEY to this destination, because the journey is what makes the destination feel POWERFUL and good to finally get to. if your character can just go over to store next door and pay for a change and get it done quick, it was never something important in the first place. you want a protagonist to want and get something, they have to go through hell to get it. this makes us sympathize with their struggle

-And here is the thing: does the protagonist getting what they want, really develop or grow their character? sure Penny is human but if she is the same person having not learned any lessons on the way to getting the thing.....well the journey was useless now wasn't it? they didn't change from the experience. and they get to be happy.....having learned nothing. in contrast if you had Penny seek out possibly forms of changing to be human but ultimately had to accept she might be a robot forever and she will just have to find happiness despite not being dealt the hand she wanted, that could be the basis for character growth.

Of course, a newly human penny realizing her new form isn't what she thought it'd be and that none of her problems are solved could also be something worth exploring. just because something is what you THOUGHT you wanted, doesn't mean you'll like it once you get it, and just because you can make a change to a physical thing doesn't mean it solves other things. there is such a thing as buyer's remorse after all. but I doubt this will be explored given everything else RWBY does.

-this whole thing just smacks of deus ex machina. I don't know the context but...looking it up....yeah yeah, okay, no, they literally wished on a magic freaking genie from a staff, so deus ex machina. no, not even some virus helps. this is just another strike in a long line of other things RWBY has done that I don't agree with. there is just no salvaging this series for me.

[Ramza00]

One last thing about Vol 8 Episode 12

Spoiler: Volume 8 Episode 12

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So this genie 🧞*♀️ 🧞*♂️ 🧞 takes your ideas, with any rules (laws) you speculate, and if there is no rules he fills it with (chaos), and then you get the final product. And he hates complainers who are not specific enough and thus do not like the final result.

Sounds like an Artist who survives on commissions, so I have to ask now...
“Where is Ambrosius ‘ s money Ozma!!!” Big Blue Barbie Doll Genie is providing all this work and no one ever asks him what he wants? Labor is not free you know.

[Anyr]

Spoiler: v8e12

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this is just another strike in a long line of other things RWBY has done that I don't agree with. there is just no salvaging this series for me.

Spoiler: No spoilers (but tagged just to be extra safe)

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Ditto. I've given up on the series ever getting its act together. These days, I just try to pick decent moments out of the slurry. I think 'that scene was actually okay (if you ignore the parts that were stupid)'; Or 'that otherwise awful dialogue contained a couple of good lines'. RWBY as a whole is pretty much doomed. But I can still get a spark of satisfaction from certain fragments of it.

[Rawhide]

RWBY is no where near as deep as Neon Genesis Evangelion, or as wide as Attack on Titan, and I certainly do not expect the same level of conspiracy on top of conspiracy on top of conspiracy as you will find in Dune (the novel). I do not walk into it expecting some huge time travel loop plot planned out four years in advance (Babylon 5). I watch RWBY because its fun.

RWBY is far from perfect, and it's certainly had its ups and downs, but it's been one thing consistently to me. Fun.

[Ramza00]

New Episode, WISH!

[Kantaki]

Spoiler: V8C12

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Now that was a plan working great.
I was actually expecting some complications.
Beyond communication failing I mean.
Ironwood getting beaten up was definitely great.

Ambrosius being actively disappointed he didn't get to screw the gang over with their wishes was amusing.
Actually the whole character was.

Penny's human now?
You know what? I'm gonna assume that was Ambrosius messing with them as much as the wish allowed.
See also “Don't fall.“ and his disappointment about how clear their wishes were. Dude's the jackass sort genie.
Honestly, my biggest problem is that she looks boring now.

Mind you, some reaction/adjustment to the new body would be good to see, but right then?
Everyone's probably happy Penny is fine and she's distracted by all the new impressions.
Like actually feeling hugs.

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: v08c13

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But oh gods, oh gods, oh gods, oh gods...

Spoiler: v08c12

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Someone is going to fall, aren't they?

Called it.

Also, they got royally screwed over.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: V8C12

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Like actually feeling hugs.

Spoiler: V8C12

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I'm not going to get into a big ole discussion again, but this is what people were talking about when bringing up why this was bad. As if she didn't really feel or "get" hugs before. That's stupid and offense of them to imply otherwise.

I do agree that she looks dumb as hell now, with her naked little leggies. No rocket boots either, or swords, all she's got left is useless maiden powers.

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: V8C12

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I'm not going to get into a big ole discussion again, but this is what people were talking about when bringing up why this was bad. As if she didn't really feel or "get" hugs before. That's stupid and offense of them to imply otherwise.

Spoiler: v08c12

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Still trying to work out how it's stupid or offensive that touch sensations in a flesh and bone body with trillions of nerve endings would feel different to someone who previously had a metal body without all of that.

I mean that's just... scientific fact.