Benchmark for AC

[Skjaldbakka]

On a specific note, I was wondering if a 26 AC is an acceptable AC for a level 10 bard focusing on ranged combat, or if a 26 AC is so pitiful I may as well stop trying.

Generally, however, what are the benchmarks for AC at various levels for good, usefull, useless, and pointless AC?

Good- Most things have a hard time Hitting you
Useful- Most things need to roll higher than a 10 to hit you
Worthless- most things hit you on a 2
Pointless- most things need a 20 to hit you, you could probably afford to pull some money out of your AC into something else.

Levels to look at for starters:

5th
10th
15th
20th

Discuss?

[Reel On, Love]

At level 10, 26 isn't great, but on the upside you should be staying out of melee most of the time.

I'd say about 40 AC is "pointless" at level 10 (but normal at level 20) while 20 is "worthless".

[Dhavaer]

At a guess, I'd say that if an equal level full BAB class needs better than an 11 to hit you with their second attack, you're doing alright.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

At level 10, a fighter with a strength of 20, a +3 weapon, belt of strength +2 and weapon focus, has an AB of +20. He hits you on a 6. Many other creatures at that CR have comparable or higher AB. So 26 AC for lvl 10 is a bit low, actually.

[kpenguin]

The problem is that AC doesn't scale very well, for monsters or PCs. There are just too many ways to boost your attack in comparison to your AC.

[Skjaldbakka]

OK, so advice? I'd rather not be hit on a 6 most of the time! Ai!

Link to sheet: Ird'Narthim "Lucien" Val'Borda

[Serpentine]

Just a side-note on the topic... My dwarf knight had an AC of 24 with her big spiffy armor, a shield and a couple of minor items. Then she was rather messily disposed of, and her armor rendered useless. Now she's a reincarnated elf, and merely through the use of magic items (alas, noone had a spare suit of armor) and her shield, she's back up to an AC of 22 without any effort.
Well, I thought it was kinda neat >.>
Of course, now, apparently, even her mere 24AC is too low for a level 10 knight. *sigh*

[Hallavast]

OK, so advice? I'd rather not be hit on a 6 most of the time! Ai!

Link to sheet: Ird'Narthim "Lucien" Val'Borda

In reality, your AC is fine considering the number of times you will be attacked. And remember. The fighter can only hit you with a six on his first swing (and only if he doesn't power attack). The thing is, with most classes, a fighter will (and should) hit on his first swing. His second swing is (and should be) about 50/50, and by the time he gets his third, he should only hit you if he rolls well. I find the AC to Attack Bonus ratio is balanced in this way, because characters have an extrordinary amount of hit points. If he wants to do serious damage, he will have to power attack. That increases the chances that he will miss. If you're worried about defense, I'd suggest picking up spells like blink (or if bards get displacement, that instead).

[deadseashoals]

This varies level by level, but you can usually expect an equal level fighter or monster to have about twice its level/CR in attack bonus. There's several cases in which this breaks down as well, but it's decent at benchmarking the AC you'll want to shoot for.

[Orzel]

I typically go by the hit myself method.

If I can hit myself with a X or lower and I'm a Y, my AC is too low.

Y:X

Front line martial class: 5 (no chance of 3 BAB hits)
Front line nonmartial class: 7 (avoid SA)
Skrimisher or Archer: 8 (avoid 3 arow Manyshot)
Back row caster: 10 (meh I'm caster)

[Nebo_]

You should have something in the high 20s to low 30s at that level. I have a 10th level Wizard who sits around 29 and I recently played a one shot Crusader with an AC of 42 while enlarged.

[Tor the Fallen]

Invest in a mithral animated shield.

[kpenguin]

Invest in a mithral animated shield.

Meh, darkwood will work just as well as, if not better than, mithral.

[Mr. Friendly]

Really, AC for a Bard should be irrelevant:

Blink
Displacement
Greater Invisibility
Greater Mirror Image

Now, I believe that Blink, Displacement and Greater Mirror Image all stack, so potentially you could be looking at a 50 - 50 miss chance, followed by a 50 - 50 miss chance, which has only a ~1 in 10 chance of being the real you. In theory you could do this for ~1 minute at 10th level, though it would be eating 2 3rd and a 4th level spells, just to avoid getting hit. Potentially though with that set up you could go "tank" the boss while the melee types clean up the minions and such before dealing with him/her/it.

[Saph]

The problem with those caster self-buffs is:

1) You have to spend several precious rounds at the beginning of the fight casting them, instead of stopping the monsters from eating the rest of your party (which is what they keep you around for).

2) Once you do have all those buffs up, the monster can just ignore you, eat everyone else, and only start working on you once you're the only one left.

Anyway, as for AC, there's no such thing as having a value so low that you should stop trying. Unless your AC is so high that enemies are only hitting you on a 20, or so low that enemies are only missing you on a 1, then every point of AC is an extra 5% chance for an attack to miss you. This never changes, no matter your level.

Besides, if you're going up against fighter-types, a terrible AC means they can dump all their AB into two-handed Power Attack, which is REALLY REALLY bad news for you if they hit.

- Saph

[Starbuck_II]

On a specific note, I was wondering if a 26 AC is an acceptable AC for a level 10 bard focusing on ranged combat, or if a 26 AC is so pitiful I may as well stop trying.

Generally, however, what are the benchmarks for AC at various levels for good, usefull, useless, and pointless AC?

Good- Most things have a hard time Hitting you
Useful- Most things need to roll higher than a 10 to hit you
Worthless- most things hit you on a 2
Pointless- most things need a 20 to hit you, you could probably afford to pull some money out of your AC into something else.

Levels to look at for starters:

5th
10th
15th
20th

Discuss?

Neat little formula:15 +1.5 Level=Good AC.
Level 5: Good AC is 22 AC
For Level 10, you want 30 AC.
Awesome AC (pointless for your descriptions) 20 + 1.5 AC: 35 AC will do for level 10.
Level 15: Good AC (starts to break down here, Attack bonuses are erratic for monsters around here): 37 AC.
Level 20, Good AC (again harder to gauge here): 45 AC

The Formula has served me well: it is as accurate as any prediction could be.

[cupkeyk]

Neat little formula:15 +1.5 Level=Good AC.?

This actually becomes untrue by level 10, AC stops being relevant, and mischance becomes the primary defense. My previous wizard16 had an AC of 27 and 50% Miss Chance (Improved Blink), and I was getting hit far less than the monk18 with 45 AC or the druid19 in Baalor form with 52.

By level ten, if you don't have a consistent source of miss chance, there is something wrong.

I am currently dex 20 small scout3/ranger2 with a mithral chain shirt, my AC is 22, the highest in the party. Investing in armor with abilities or equipment is way too expensive than investing in offensive power.

The bard should just spend his first round with Blink and keep his current AC.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The problem with attacks at lvl 10 or higher is not damage, really, but grappling and sundering.

The vast majority of monsters have grapple checks substantially higher than PCs. Given that a successful grapple check means dealing damage as per an unarmed strike and most creatures are unarmed anyway, things are bad. Not only they get to make touch attacks instead of normal attacks but also get to immobilise you AND deal their standard damage. Remember-once they nail you with a grapple, further attempts do not need to roll for hitting you-only grapple checks to pin/deal damage. Thus concealment doesn't help at all after the first attack.

Similarly, most items on a PC have ridiculously low AC and hit points. The wizard's headband of awesome +6 only has 10 HP and no hardness and an AC of 13. One sunder attempt from just about any monster and it is gone.

The most common defences are flying-or levitating if you're short on money. Freedom of Movement is not always available but it should be the very first protective item you seek at mid-levels.

Miss chance is not bad but it is not the best thing either. Flying really works better against all landbound opponents and greater invisibility prevents enemies from targetting you in the first place.

[cupkeyk]

Miss chance is not bad but it is not the best thing either. Flying really works better against all landbound opponents and greater invisibility prevents enemies from targetting you in the first place.

Blinking is superior because you do not require an open space to avoid combat, you are effectively invisible and you can just pop out of grapples.

[Iku Rex]

This actually becomes untrue by level 10, AC stops being relevant, and mischance becomes the primary defense.

Miss chance is useful, but AC is not irrelevant at any level. Put enough effort into it and even the high CR meleers will have a hard time hitting you and they certainly won't be able to dish out massive Power Attack damage at will. Also, high AC keeps you mostly safe from minion hordes.

[cupkeyk]

Miss chance is useful, but AC is not irrelevant at any level. Put enough effort into it and even the high CR meleers will have a hard time hitting you and they certainly won't be able to dish out massive Power Attack damage at will. Also, high AC keeps you mostly safe from minion hordes.

Actually, if monsters and minion hordes need a twenty to hit you, they can massively pump power attack and hope for a twenty and deal critical maxxed power attack damage. It won't be a horde if there isn't enough of them to roll a twenty at least once a round. Miss chance trumps a twenty though.

Oh flight means very little to other flying creatures, big monsters with reach and ranged opponents.

[Saph]

Miss chance is useful, but AC is not irrelevant at any level. Put enough effort into it and even the high CR meleers will have a hard time hitting you and they certainly won't be able to dish out massive Power Attack damage at will. Also, high AC keeps you mostly safe from minion hordes.

Yes. Getting Power Attacked by monsters who already have a huge base damage is really, really bad for your health. This is why you never want to neglect AC unless you have to - no matter how low it is, each point of AC makes it that much harder for monsters to Power Attack you.

- Saph

[Iku Rex]

Huh? How are you getting all those minions close enough to roll natural 20s every round? But if they are that close, and all you've got is a 50% miss chance and crappy AC, you're dead. Like I said, miss chance is useful but you want high AC if you intend to get attacked a lot in melee.

[cupkeyk]

Lolz, yeah, Thinking about it, a natural twenty is 5% while hitting miss chance is at most 50%.

Anyh00t, it standard issue that if you hit only a twenty, you should max out power attack. Maximizes your 5% chance to hit with a wildly powerful swing.

mean while, miss chance forces opponents to conserve power attack hoping as many chances to connect.

I simply wanted to point out that the 15-1.5*level should include miss chance at levels higher than ten.

[shadowdemon_lord]

For most characters, pimping that AC score, miss chance, and HP (HP is important for everyone, otherwise your just walking empowered fireball bait) is very important. Their are builds (I play one) that are very effective that simply rely on a huge number of HP's, a gigantic strength, and good saves to win the day, while letting the AC score tank. I've only ever seen this build be viable in Arcanis where you have access to Heedless Assault (convert AC to AB at a 1 to 1 rate, or a 2 to 1 rate if power attacking, max 5) and you combine that with either Barbarian or a Barbarian PrC that gives you crazy rage powers (Bear Warrior, Warped One, or Frenzied Berserker would work). Between the raging and the huge hit you'll take to AC while combining Power Attack and Heedless Assault (and the huge amount of investment this build requires in amping your offensive powers to obscene levels to enable you to be able to drop that giant before he drops you despite your tanked AC) AC stops to matter. I seriously play a 13th level character following this build who's AC drops to 4 after everything (rage, a special PrC specific rage that nets me a loss of another 2 points of AC, max heedless assault/power attack, and the free enlarge I get when I rage) is up and running. On the Plus side, with everything running I can stand a fair chance of outgrappling any grapple monkey, and winning the checks to not have my weapon sundered.With a Displacement thrown on me, I become pretty tough.

[Chronos]

Oh flight means very little to other flying creatures, big monsters with reach and ranged opponents.

Flying also isn't too useful anywhere with a low ceiling (like inside most buildings and dungeons).

And the key with miss chance is that it works in addition to the attack roll vs. AC. No matter what AC you have, and no matter what monsters you're facing, you'll get hit half as often with 50% miss chance as you will without the miss chance. If before the monsters had a 1 in 20 chance to hit, now they have a 1 in 40. If before they had a 19 in 20 chance to hit, now they have a 19 in 40. It's not really a replacement for AC, since it stacks with it, but sometimes, increasing AC just doesn't work (due to the nat-1 and nat-20 rules), whereas the same is not true of miss chance.

[Person_Man]

Let's say that you want the ultimate tank. You would want:

High Hit Points: This is really the most important thing you can do to increase your survivability. No matter how you build your character, your enemies will find a way to hurt you. This can't defend against everything, but it does help a lot.

AC = (Level*2) + 19: High enough so that most enemies you fight need to roll a 20 in order to hit you. If you also want to avoid most attacks from "boss" monsters, I'd say that it'd probably be closer to (Level*2) + 25. But as others have pointed out, there tends to be a diminishing return on this investment, because most truly deadly attacks at high levels don't depend on your AC to screw you.

High touch AC and Uncanny Dodge. At high levels, you're most likely to be killed by spells or critical hits, not normal attacks. The best way to protect against touch attacks tend to be various spells, Inertial Armor, sky high Dex, a Monk's Belt, and anything else that provides a Dodge or Force armor bonus to AC. Uncanny Dodge will save you from losing your Dex/Dodge bonuses in most cases.

Immunity to Crits: Again, at high levels you're most likely to be killed by spells or critical hits, not normal attacks. No matter what your AC is, if your enemy rolls a 20, you will be hit and hit hard. High hit points can mitigate this, but not always. Immunity to crits is quite easy to get if you're a full caster with a few rounds to buff. And its not too difficult for melee builds if you put your mind to it.

Saves or SR = Level + 25: High enough so that you pass almost every Save unless you roll a 1, or SR high enough that your enemy needs to roll a 20 to bypass it. This is almost impossible to get at low levels. But at high levels, its attainable with certain builds. Or you can load up on various items, feats, or abilities that let you re-roll Saves, which will usually be just as good (unless you're phenomenally unlucky). If your DM allows LA buyoff, picking a race or template with inherently high SR can be much more efficient then trying to obtain impossibly high Saves. Evasion and Mettle are also helpful, but not necessary. Few DMs will throw something at a PC that kills or utterly screws them if they pass the Saving Throw. And if they do, you're probably screwed no matter what your PC has.

Miss Chance: Anything that gives you a miss chance is helpful. A Cloak of Lesser Displacement can give anyone a 20% miss chance. A Ring of Blinking can give anyone a 50% miss chance. My favorite though is Greater Invisibility. But anything that isn't an "all day" effect will be difficult to pull off in some combats.

Damage Reduction: If you can get respectable DR, then you can afford to have a lower AC. This is more of a trade off then a requirement. But if you have a sky high AC, investing in DR is usually a waste.

Contingency: At high levels, you should always have a Contingency Heal or something similar cast on you. There are also various special abilities, like Defensive Roll or Loyal Beyond Death, that can seriously save your bacon. There are also a few combos that can pretty much save you from anything. Access to Celerity comes to mind.

[Skjaldbakka]

So it turns out I forgot to roll 4 of my HD. So my HP is actually 80, not 56.

[cupkeyk]

Person_man,

Could I please repost your comment on my blog, my friends would love to read that?

thanks,

cpkk

[Skjaldbakka]

The Ultimate Tank is missing one crucial element: A reason for opponents to attack you instead of the other party members. If you have to sacrifice threat for survivabilty, you have failed.