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Thread: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
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2007-10-19, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Well, a quest to find out how to defeat it could be fun, sure. But when you already know how to beat it, then it's just not as much fun. You, the player, should be learning along the quest, not just your character. That's why I suggest mixing it up, so that players don't already know what it's weak against. Maybe there's a special sword they need to find. Maybe it can only be killed after it eats the rare herb of Sangua Muey. It doesn't have to be just >900 damage and Miracle. Let players feel a real sense of accomplishment when they kill the Tarrasque.
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2007-10-19, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
If my gish takes down the tarrasque (he can do it in an "arena", but he probably won't ever get a chance to try in-game), can he teleport with it to the open ocean while it's unconcious in order to keep it dead after he drops it to negatives? (drown it so it doesn't regenerate?)
I am asking an honest question...not trying to bend the rules here.Avatar by Aedilred
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2007-10-19, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Out of curiosity has anyone ever beaten one of these in a normal game where no metagaming was used?.
It seems to me that PC's without access to the MM entry in character would likely die horrible deaths to it.
One encounter/adventure hook idea I've contemplated throwing at a mid-level party (if I ever get a chance to play again, much less DM):
Many years ago, an adventuring band fought the Tarrasque, and actually managed to defeat it. But they didn't have a Miracle or Wish available to finish the job, nor the resources to get one. So instead, they established a community around the monster, dedicated to continually dealing it massive damage to keep it unconscious. Unfortunately, the community has dwindled, and meanwhile, the chunks of flesh they've been hacking off of it (and which never rot away, and are too tough for anything to eat) are corrupting te surrounding land where they're dragging them away to dump. The current players come across the community (likely guided by the horrible stench), the current leader explains the situation to them, and the party then has to come up with some more permanent solution to the problem.
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2007-10-19, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
By the rules, yes. Of course, any caster with Legend Lore, Teleport, Locate Creature, and a whole lotta Potions of Water Breathing can dredge him out.
Also, on defeating the Tarrasque without prior knowledge, a 20th level party will probably survive their first ecounter, although they certainly wouldn't be able to kill it. After all, the Tarrasque doesn't particularly look like a flying creature; I know that if I saw it, I would get some flight on me, and get real high. Two or three times its height up.Last edited by martyboy74; 2007-10-20 at 05:05 AM.
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2007-10-19, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-19, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Intersting plot. I seem to recall someone else on another board having created a plot where a city was founded on the tarsque, and magical items and potions of longevity were created from it's blood and the like.
Unfortunately, there does seem to be one small detail wrong (unless you're house ruling it)
See below (emphasis mine)
Regeneration (Ex)
No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.
The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.
If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.Last edited by Josh the Aspie; 2007-10-19 at 05:05 PM.
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2007-10-19, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
You can still trap the Terrasque using Wall of Force. For the top and bottom of the cage, just cast a bunch of vertical walls side by side, close enough together so a colossal creature can't squeeze out between them, forming what looks like bars above and below when you're inside the cage. That won't cause suffocation, but it will create a convenient location for drowning, or at least keep it immobile where it can't hurt you, while you puncushion it with arrows and such.
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2007-10-19, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Fixing the tarrasque to be powerful is easy because most of the "oh, that's no problem to kill" plans come from a combination of players combing through every last detail of the Monster Manual well in advance and forming complex plans based on the descriptions therein, taking advantage of clever but cheesy loopholes (the allip trick), as well as generally abusing the obnoxious power of full casters (the allip trick).
The solution, I think, is to stop looking at the tarrasque as being what's broken (other than not having a ranged attack, which should be easy to fix for a huge thing that ought to have no problem flinging boulders, trees and whatever else is handy) and instead recognize that the real problem is metagaming players who've memorized the Monster Manual and are using information their characters shouldn't have ... as well as magic just plain being overpowered.
My fix? Either make sure your players aren't powergamers who've made a careful study of everything in the Monster Manual, or failing that, change things about monsters randomly ... and don't tell the players. When they complain, "But [insert monster here] can't do that/is vulnerable to this/is immune to that," ask, "So ... you're saying you were metagaming and using information your character didn't have?" Welcome to a world full of monsters the players suddenly don't have encyclopedic knowledge of after all (unless someone bothered to take Knowledge skills, which suddenly become useful after all).
That, and fix casters, which is a whole other kettle of fish.
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2007-10-19, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
You know, this thread isn't exactly the first one that fantasizes about capturing/using the Tarrasque for their own ends (endless supply of food, raw materials, et etc).
All I have to say to that is: Be careful what you wish for!
That thread is a really great read in general, and a real must read for any DM with a slightly sadistic bent. Much like the infamous Pun-Pun thread, that one really takes off after a few pages asevil cruel heartless peopleDM's share their ideas on how to really make that a creey and unsettling area.Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
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2007-10-19, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Where, exactly, did you get this information? I'd like the source on this one, please. Because as it stands, Melting just doesn't seem to fit the Tarrasque for me. Although making it an extremely efficient burrower isn't out of the question, literal melting is... Look, just- where'd you get this information, and why should I trust it?
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2007-10-19, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Not everyone who's combed through the Monster Manual is a powergamer. Not everyone who's done a careful study of the monsters is intentionally metagaming. Some of them are DMs, or hope to be. And some of them just enjoy reading up on monsters. I got the Monster Manual first, before any of the other books, because I was interested in the monsters. I thought they were cool. Only playing with people who've never DMed, never hope to DM, and don't much care about monsters might be a bit difficult.
Your second solution is much better, however. The best solution is to--as I suggested--change things up. An even better solution, if you have time and the ability, is to homebrew new monsters.I am a poor man, some say I’m half crazy,
son of the sword and the knife
Lady I pledge you my sword and my honor,
my heart and my pride and my life
--Bella Doña, by Joe Bethancourt
Spoiler
Alas, poor Draknir. By Mephibosheth
Owl-atar by KingGolem
You will be missed, dear 'stache...
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2007-10-19, 09:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
That's a good one, but I also especially like the idea of deliberately tripping up a metagamer by using an established monster with special twists, just to make the point abundantly clear to the players. The goal isn't to kill the person but simply to make an example of the person and show that if you're using non-character knowledge to "win," you might find that's a "losing" strategy here.
Of course, that's the vindictive and vengeful side of me talking. The nicer side would spell out my intentions clearly in advance and mention that Knowledge skills might play an important role for anyone who does still want to use special knowledge of monsters against them. Just imagine it: Knowledge suddenly becomes a prized and crucial skill! *gasp*
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2007-10-19, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
I don't give the Tarrasque Stats, he's Godzilla. The Tarrasque is immune to all magic, is invulnerable to all weapons, and has radioactive fire breath that can devastate anything for half a mile. Anytime he shows up in the game, it's as a natural disaster the PCs have to deal with and not something that can be fought. Oddly, this means I can use him at 1st level as well as 20th or beyond.
But yeah, PCs tend to have ridiculously easy ideas like teleporting him to the Negative Material Plane or other Comic book methods. In my campaigns, I suggest that just doesn't work.Last edited by Charles Phipps; 2007-10-19 at 09:09 PM.
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2007-10-19, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-19, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
I am a poor man, some say I’m half crazy,
son of the sword and the knife
Lady I pledge you my sword and my honor,
my heart and my pride and my life
--Bella Doña, by Joe Bethancourt
Spoiler
Alas, poor Draknir. By Mephibosheth
Owl-atar by KingGolem
You will be missed, dear 'stache...
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2007-10-19, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally).
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2007-10-19, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Well, a 16th level warlock could solo a Tarrasque.
Fell Flight so he doesn't reach you, then spam Word of Changing until he inevitably fails both saves. To make it more fun, turn it into a fish.
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2007-10-20, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
You realize that even a completely basic tarrasque still has a Strength score of 45 and every right to fling whatever's handy (trees, boulders, whatever) at a flier, right? Improvised weapons have a range increment of 10 feet, so that's a 50-foot range with a +39 attack bonus (or as low as +31 at max range), dealing damage equal to whatever the object is big enough to do +17.
Now we run into an interesting situation. The warlock, by level 16, can fire a Word of Changing from as far as 65 feet away, just out of reach. Putting aside whether it's really logical that the tarrasque can't throw things farther than that, what about the tarrasque's reach?
Bear with me. Imagine a creature with a reach of 50 feet. If it threw something, and we didn't count its reach, then the object it threw would, as the create threw its arm out to full extension and released it ... simply plop to the ground, having already reached its maximum distance. Appropriate per the strictest RAW reading? Maybe. Reasonable? Uh, no.
So if we can count the tarrasque's reach, then that's 15 extra feet (can't count 5 feet of it since normal people have a 5-foot reach), and ... hey. 65 feet.
Don't like that logic? Fine. I'll just add hulking hurler to the tarrasque. Now try to fly out of range.
Let's not forget that terrain features matter. If you end your turn 65 feet above the very tippy-top of the tarrasque, and it then uses its move action to ascend a hill, leap, and then throw something while in the air, at the apex of its leap, what happens? How are you staying exactly at your maximum range from it in the first place? Other than the GM just giving you that as a freebie, what lets your character judge exactly 65 feet of distance? A Spot check? Oops, not a class skill. A built-in rangefinder? Are you a street samurai warlock?
What if the tarrasque ends its move crouched low, you zoom down lower to get in range for your spell, and on its turn, it suddenly extends to full height? A Colossal creature has a vertical reach of 128 feet when it really stretches up there. That's without jumping. What's the plan now?
You could argue that a tarrasque would never think to perform any of these actions, but the fact is, predators can be cunning without being rocket scientists.
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2007-10-20, 01:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
He got it from my earlier post in the thread which came from the Ecology of the Tarrasque. It's an interesting read if nothing else and makes me very very interested about finding a way to bottle the tarrasque's digestive acids (Not the one burning you in it's gullet, the acid in the second stomach that has an disjunction effect and would make for one fun as hell thrown weapon)
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2007-10-20, 02:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-20, 02:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Let's see ... DC to notice the presence of an active invisible creature? 20. The tarrasque has a +17 to Spot and needs a ... a 3.
Tarrasques also have the Scent ability, which ignores invisibility entirely. Noting the direction of the source of a particular scent is a move action, and if you're hurling trees and boulders, I think direction will suffice. To top it off, tarrasques actually have Blind Fight as a feat.
Next?
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2007-10-20, 03:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
The word of changing will have to get past the tarrasque's SR. The tarrasque could also move a few feet in the direction of the warlock (randomly?) and then swiping randomly at thin air. If the warlock fails a few will saves, the warlock becomes panicked. And give the huge save bonuses of the tarrasque vs the warlock's saves, who will win?
Let's see ... DC to notice the presence of an active invisible creature? 20. The tarrasque has a +17 to Spot and needs a ... a 3.
Tarrasques also have the Scent ability, which ignores invisibility entirely.
The problem with the tarrasque is that it's either unkillable or ridiculously easy to defeat. If you can fly and possess ranged attacks, it's doomed. If it has a ranged attack and can fly, you're doomed unless you're a caster (but that's the problem with the caster, not the tarrasque).
Barring epic spells, I think an Undead Tarrasque is unkillable (a way to get an undead tarrasque is via Half-Dragon, then turning it into a Dracolich).
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2007-10-20, 03:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
*starts to imagine what it would take to get half dragon tarrasques, then groans, and runs for the brain bleach* *pauses* Wait. If the tarrasque is female, then you DO have the Godzilla approach. And then you have to deal with a CR 20+ Dragon, A tararsque, and the offspring.
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2007-10-20, 04:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
You want to solo the Tarrasque at minimal personal risk? Take a 17th level Warblade with the manouevres War Master's Charge and Lightning Recovery, the stance Leading the Charge, and the Leadership feat, preferably with a combination of reputation and Charisma sufficient to put his Leadership score at 19 or above (Easily doable). Give him a wizard cohort, and buy him a Ring of Three Wishes to keep the Tarrasque dead.
When you hear that the Tarrasque is on a rampage somewhere, go there. When you're within, oh, a few kilometres of it, have the wizard use 3-4 castings of Mass Fly to cover himself, you, and at least 40 of your followers. Meanwhile,. activate Leading the Charge. Fly off to find the Tarrasque, with your followers in a tight formation around you. Make sure everyone is the same height above the ground - ~100 feet should do.
When you find the Tarrasque, form up directly above it. Stay ~100 feet above its head; as a Colossal creature, it's ~64 feet high (if its higher than that, this actually work to your advantage), putting you 164 feet above the ground, and well out of its 128-foot vertical reach. Even if the DM maxes its Jump skill 51 ranks from 48 HD, +17 for STR, -6 for movement, to a total of +62), then has it take a running jump and rolls a 20, that's still only a 20-foot jump - you're still a good 15 feet out of reach.
Now use War Master's Charge.
You and all 40+ of your followers immediately charge the Tarrasque, all of you getting a +2 bonus for every person involved, giving a total of +80 (for 40 people). Given the Tarrasque's AC of 35, I'd say this is more than sufficient to hit it. Furthermore, between the manouevre itself (+25 damage to the attack made by every affected ally) and Leading the Charge (+Initiator Level to charging damage - +17, in this case), all of your followers gain +42 damage before they even roll their weapon damage. The Tarrasque's DR of 15 reduces that to 27; we'll ignore weapon damage, because frankly, it's irrelevant. Your army can pull this off with the fists if they want to.
Assuming there are 40 of you charging the Tarrasque, all hitting on anything but a 1, you will score at average of 38 hits. Each hit does 27 damage, for a total of 1026. This will leave the Tarrasque unconscious for a good 4-5 rounds - more than enough time for you to expend a Wish and make sure it never gets up again.
But what if you get particularly unlucky on your attack rolls? Really, this isn't a problem. As long as at least 34 of your guys score hits (i.e. with 40 attackers, 6 of them roll 1s), it will still be out long enough for you to Wish it dead. If you get horribly unlucky and more than 6 miss, you're still fine, because of the other nifty feature of War Master's Charge - if an opponent is struck by you and at least one ally, it is stunned for one round, no save.
So you fly up and recover your manouevres, and then you do it again. And again. And again. Eventually, it will fall over; it can't run away, because it has a move of 20 feetm, while your flying troops have 60. The only thing that can save it is either you rolling a 1 on both your attack and your reroll for Lightning Recovery, or else every last one of your followers rolling 1s on their attacks. If either of these happen, your followers are pretty much screwed, but you needn't be - your wizard cohort, who has been standing by in case of just such a disaster, casts a Quickened Dimension Door to emerge beside you (or else is a Conjuration specialist who took 10 level in Master Specialist), then teleports you and himself to safety. The Tarrasque will then proceed to Cleave through your other followers until nothing remains but fine red mist, but you're still alive - you can head off and recruit other followers, and try again, hoping to not be foiled by one-in-8000 chances this time.
Now I'll note that, with a Leadership score of 19, you actually have 48 followers, plus a 13th-level cohort. With 4 castings of Mass Fly, your wizard buddy can quite handily get you all into the air, allowing you to make 49 attacks (assuming the Wizard doesn't take a hand himself - he's standing by to rescue you if things go completely pear-shaped). In order for the Tarrasque to survive the first charge, you would need to roll 16 1s on 49 d20s. Needless to say to say, this isn't very likely.
Did I miss anything?
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2007-10-20, 04:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Thanks to Veera for the avatar.
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2007-10-20, 04:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
You still can't take out the undead tarrasque, but it works for taking out the normal tarrasque. You aren't exactly 'soloing' the tarrasque...
EDIT: Where does it say that the undead tarrasque loses regeneration?Last edited by Armads; 2007-10-20 at 04:33 AM.
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2007-10-20, 04:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Last edited by Amiria; 2007-10-20 at 04:37 AM.
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2007-10-20, 04:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Thanks to Veera for the avatar.
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2007-10-20, 04:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Meh, that works too. Out of curiosity, where does it say you can't act after casting a quickened spell?
Actually, it turns out I did miss a rather vital detail - Quickening a spell raises it by 4 levels, not 3, so a 13th-level Wizard can't Quicken a Dimension Door. He can use a Rod of Quickening, however, or be a Master Specialist (Conjuration).
Well, that depends on how you define "soloing". After all, for a character with Leadership, the cohort and followers are just as much a part of his abilities as a Fighter's Power Attack, a Druid's animal companion, or the summoned Allips suggested earlier.
Also, as far as XP distribution is concerned, you did it by yourself - all the XPs for the encounter go to you. Your followers gain none, and your cohort gets an amount determined by his level relative to yours, but they don't come out of your share.Last edited by GeneralTacticus; 2007-10-20 at 05:04 AM.
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2007-10-20, 04:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
'After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.'
From the spell description of dimension door.Thanks to Veera for the avatar.
I keep my stories in a blog. You should read them.
5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist