INT Bard VS CHA Bard

[Eldritch_Ent]

I've run into an interesting situation with this bard I'm creating, in that I can't decide how to place my stats... Namely, I have only one 18 (17 + 1 from starting at level 4, I think I can convince the dm to just let me "have 18 from the start" to make book-keeping easier), and one 14, and all 12's.

Given you were making a bard, specifically one that is entirely a party face (abhors adventuring outside of cities and even fighting in general, attends all the parties nobles throw even if he has 0 ranks in Knowledge: Nobles, and generally hobnobs.) Which would you say is more important? having a 18 in Charisma or Intelligence, especially given that the Charisma can just be increased with the 8 and 12th level bonuses by the time I get 6th level spells? (Assuming I even get that far.)

[Skjaldbakka]

Go with the 18 int, 14 Cha. If you put your bumps into cha, you will be able to cast your spells. Focus on buff spells instead of save-or-X spells, and you should be golden. Having more skills maxed is more helpful than having +2 to some of them.

[cupkeyk]

You will need skill points more than a charisma modifier to skill points, as a buffer, your abilities are static although keyed to charisma. You will only want a towering charisma for a half elf nanobot diplomancer since the will save/sense motive check is boosted by your leadership feat.

[Accountant]

Your role is the party face you say?

Especially if you already have a rogue or another skill monkey, I'd say CHA. You can never go wrong with enough of a diplomacy bonus, and I know I always like to never actually need to put those bonus points every fourth level somewhere, but just to have the freedom to put them wherever.

EDIT - On the other hand, I've no doubt that everyone else on these forums knows what they're talking about mare than I do, so... yeah.

[Saph]

I'd go with CHA.

Two extra maxed out skills are nice, but having extra bonus spells and +2 to your save DCs is better in the long run, not to mention that as the face your two main skills (Bluff and Diplomacy) run off Charisma - and that's not counting your Perform.

A 14 int plus being a human will give 9 skill points per level, which is more than enough to max out every social skill in existence with points left over.

- Saph

[Eldritch_Ent]

One of my main concerns is that I can't decide which skills to max out, I have 11 I really want to take, but if I only have 9 I have to cut two out.


Perform, Use Magic Device, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Forgery, Bluff, Sense Motive, Disguise, Listen, Escape Artist, Concentration are the 11 skills I'm eyeing- I suppose if I take the 14 int, I think I can drop "Listen" without too many errors, but I feel very uncumforable dropping Escape artist- if I get grappled and don't have it, or tied and gagged, I'm in trouble...

[ocato]

Charisma so you can use whatever spells you want without worrying about DC as much (still a factor, but not a huge one) and you can use your charisma skills well. Your character idea is pretty much screaming high charisma, but maybe that's just me.

[cupkeyk]

Perform, Use Magic Device, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Forgery, Bluff, Sense Motive, Disguise, Listen, Escape Artist, Concentration are the 11 skills I'm eyeing- I suppose if I take the 14 int, I think I can drop "Listen" without too many errors, but I feel very uncumforable dropping Escape artist- if I get grappled and don't have it, or tied and gagged, I'm in trouble...

But Listen is the primary skill for sublime chord...

[Eldritch_Ent]

But Listen is the primary skill for sublime chord...

But I'm not *taking* sublime chord- I'm sticking with straight bard.

[Draz74]

One of my main concerns is that I can't decide which skills to max out, I have 11 I really want to take, but if I only have 9 I have to cut two out.


Perform, Use Magic Device, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Forgery, Bluff, Sense Motive, Disguise, Listen, Escape Artist, Concentration are the 11 skills I'm eyeing- I suppose if I take the 14 int, I think I can drop "Listen" without too many errors, but I feel very uncumforable dropping Escape artist- if I get grappled and don't have it, or tied and gagged, I'm in trouble...

So drop Listen and take half-ranks in Gather Information and something else. (Gather Information checks are generally pretty low DCs, honestly.) Forgery might be a good choice for the other half-maxxed skill, as it's rare that you find someone that has ranks in it to oppose yours. (Depends on campaign, though.) Or you could do half-ranks in Bluff and just count on Glibness to carry you over later in the game ...

Anyway, I vote make 18 Charisma for a "face" Bard. 18 Int is more for "loremaster" bards.

[Jack_Simth]

One of my main concerns is that I can't decide which skills to max out, I have 11 I really want to take, but if I only have 9 I have to cut two out.


Perform, Use Magic Device, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Forgery, Bluff, Sense Motive, Disguise, Listen, Escape Artist, Concentration are the 11 skills I'm eyeing- I suppose if I take the 14 int, I think I can drop "Listen" without too many errors, but I feel very uncumforable dropping Escape artist- if I get grappled and don't have it, or tied and gagged, I'm in trouble...

Forgery is a good one to drop - in most campaigns, you'll have little use for it.

[....]

Concentration don't need to be maxed unless you plan on casting in combat a lot.

[BardicDuelist]

One of my main concerns is that I can't decide which skills to max out, I have 11 I really want to take, but if I only have 9 I have to cut two out.


Perform, Use Magic Device, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Forgery, Bluff, Sense Motive, Disguise, Listen, Escape Artist, Concentration are the 11 skills I'm eyeing- I suppose if I take the 14 int, I think I can drop "Listen" without too many errors, but I feel very uncumforable dropping Escape artist- if I get grappled and don't have it, or tied and gagged, I'm in trouble...

Drop Disguise because Alter Self basically takes care of that for you. Take Melodic Casting (CM) and you can drop perfrom (it is also a pre-req for one of the best bard prestige classes that you can enter under level 10). That brings you down to 9. I would drop Forgery in exchange for Knowledge (arcana). Then, I drop Gather Information in exchange for Spellcraft.

If you really want to be a skillmonkey, taking the Bardic Knack variant in PHB2 may be better than Bardic Knowledge for you.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Drop Disguise because Alter Self basically takes care of that for you. Take Melodic Casting (CM) and you can drop perfrom (it is also a pre-req for one of the best bard prestige classes that you can enter under level 10). That brings you down to 9. I would drop Forgery in exchange for Knowledge (arcana). Then, I drop Gather Information in exchange for Spellcraft.

If you really want to be a skillmonkey, taking the Bardic Knack variant in PHB2 may be better than Bardic Knowledge for you.

Unforuntely, this campaign is core only. (I might be able to get away with stuff in the SRD, but I think that's the absolute limit.) So no Sublime Chord or anything like that.

I don't even know what Bardic Knack *DOES*. And I don't see any benefit from taking Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft- I looked int he spell descriptions and they don't list anything like casting bonuses or the like...

[Nowhere Girl]

In my opinion, anyone who cares a good deal about having many skills should prioritize Intelligence first, [insert more traditionally prioritized stat here] second. That means Intelligence over Dexterity for rogues and Intelligence over Charisma for bards.

To me, it's simple math. Say I have an 18 and a 14, as in your case. If I apply the 18 to Charisma and the 14 to Intelligence as a bard, I get +2 more for Charisma-based skills and spell save DCs. It will always be +2 more than I could otherwise have had, and that's it.

If I instead apply the 18 to Intelligence and the 14 to Charisma, I'll get +8 more skill points at 1st level. At second level, it will become +10 more. At 3rd, it will be +12 more ... and so on. Effectively, the benefit scales with my level, where the other benefit would not.

But that's just how I look at it.

[MrNexx]

Drop Disguise because Alter Self basically takes care of that for you.

Of course, Disguise doesn't have a duration, nor take a spell slot per day (or more than one)

If you really want to be a skillmonkey, taking the Bardic Knack variant in PHB2 may be better than Bardic Knowledge for you.

This is a good option.

[BardicDuelist]

Well, the Core only thing does limit things. With that in mind, Int may be better (as has been stated, avoid spells that have DCs, which is a good general rule for bards anyway because of the lower spell levels, etc). Still, certain skills, like forgery, could be halved to accomodate more skills (or languages). Knowledge (arcana) is less useful because you don't have to worry about the PRCs that require it. Spellcraft can still help for identifying spells enemy mages cast, countersonging them, etc. If you DM throws dead magic or planar travel, spellcraft checks to cast can kill a caster if they don't have ranks in it.

Bardic Knack lets you apply 1/2 your bard level to all skills that you can use (so you have to have one rank to use trained only skills). It replaces bardic knowledge.

On disguise: yes, it is useful. It is very useful for the right kind of character, but unless the bard plans on impersonating people for long periods of time (and with preperation time before hand), alter self, or even disguise self, is more useful. That being said, it really depends on your DM and campaign, and ranks in disguise only makes those spells more potent.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Yeah, I think an INT would fit him better as well (Since he has a tendency to concoct exceedingly complex plots- even a little overcompliated, due to his low WIS) and being able to disguise himself will be kinda needed, so I think I'll settle with that.

So now I wonder- is Glitterdust still a good spell to take, to get out of tight spots? I'm already taking grease, but...

[TheOOB]

So now I wonder- is Glitterdust still a good spell to take, to get out of tight spots? I'm already taking grease, but...

Glitterdust is the spell to take at low levels to get out of tight spots. It removes most people from the fight entirely, targets will, which most non-casters are weak against, and has added utility against invisible creatures.

[Skjaldbakka]

Perform, Use Magic Device, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Forgery, Bluff, Sense Motive, Disguise, Listen, Escape Artist, Concentration

Skills I bolded don't really need to be maxxed out. Gather Information checks are low DC, and can be obviated with Bardic Lore, Forgery rarely comes up and is opposed by Forgery, and uncommon skill, and Disguise can be sent through the roof with magic items even w/o max ranks.

[osyluth]

gather information DCs should be higher. If you're running an adventure based on a mystery, a gather information check can uncover all the clues with a few die rolls

[Quietus]

I'd go with the higher Int - if you look at things from another perspective, you get two major bonuses from having high Cha. +2 to social skills, and +2 to save DC's. Bards don't have a lot of spells to be throwing around "Save Or ...." stuff all the time anyhow, and are perfectly viable if they take only utility/buff type things, with the occasional Grease bump.

Which leaves us with +2 to Diplomacy, Bluff, Disguise, and Gather Information. You're level 4, so you're 14 skill points ahead with an int-build; Put 5 of those into Knowledge (Local) for the +2 gather information synergy, and 5 into Sense Motive for Diplomacy (and maybe bluff, can't remember OTOH). Disguise, well, not a lot to be done there. Still, after getting enough ranks for K.Local and Sense Motive synergies, you're 4 skill points ahead, with a gap that'll only continue to grow as you level.

[Bender]

If you can get away with SRD stuff, Bardic sage adds some importance to int. DC would still be based on cha, but you need int to determine what you can or can't cast, so you wouldn't need to increase your cha later on.