help with Sword & Board

[Partysan]

We'll soon be playing a kind of melee campaign (players until now are a viking and a TWF Ranger) and I'd like to play a kind of veteran fighter.
I want him to be especially good at actively fighting with a shield and decided to give him the Shield Charge feat from CW along with Improved Trip.
While I know that S&W fighters (not to mention fighters generally) are kinda subpar, I really like the concept and do not want to change it.

I'm now asking for class abilities, feats, skill tricks etc. that give bonuses against prone opponents. When using a shield I cannot wield a two-handed weapon, so damage bonuses would be helpful.

Second question: which feats should follow? (besides the most basic like PA)
PHBII has some nice shield feats but I doubt that most of them are worth the slot. A bit of battlefield control would be nice, but is difficult without reach.

I'd like to remain human. All books are allowed, but not dragon magazine, because no one of us has it. I do not want to become a caster and I won't be using a ToB class (I like them, but I would kinda outshine the other both). However, if I can get a fitting maneuver via Martial Study I'd appreciate input.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Historically, Shields were used as weapons as much as they were for protection, so you may want to look into the TWF tree. It's still suboptimal, but better than what S&B usually has to offer in D&D.

[Matthew]

Block Arrow might be worth your while. Shield Specialisation definitely would be at low levels. However, if I were you I would make sure I diversified.

[Tor the Fallen]

You may want to shield bash/TWF with your shield at low levels, then when you can afford it, get an animated shield, and TWF fight with spiked armor and a two handed weapon. You could combine that with a polearm or other reach weapon to be tripping people far away and stabbing people close. TWF with spiked armor and a spiked chain.

[Matthew]

If you can get your DM to allow the retraining rules from the DMG/PHB? II, you can build a pretty good Sword and Shield type and then switch out at higher levels. There was some talk of Exotic Weapons Master/Bastard Sword combinations, but I have never really understood it.

Power Attack, Cleave and Leap Attack are almost always worth it.

[Kurald Galain]

Can you get one of those floating shields?

[cupkeyk]

If you can get your DM to allow the retraining rules from the DMG/PHB? II, you can build a pretty good Sword and Shield type and then switch out at higher levels. There was some talk of Exotic Weapons Master/Bastard Sword combinations, but I have never really understood it.

Power Attack, Cleave and Leap Attack are almost always worth it.

It basically abuses uncanny blow, that lets you add double your str modifier to your melee damage. bastard sword is suboptimal since it requires a feat aside from the already static weapon focus feat. Samurai get weapon proficient bastard sword free, dwarves get dwarven waraxe and urgorshes, gnomes get gnome hooked hammers, bards get whip(there are awesome whips in magic Item Compendium)

[Partysan]

Thanks so far, but I think I clearly said I wanted to optimize a S&W fighter and not optimize a fighter by throwing away the character concept. I'd like to hear something about how I can make him effective while using a shield. I know that he would be stronger without, but I want him to use one.

Question: Shield Charge lets me make a free trip attempt with a shield while charging. Would it make Cometary Collision from PHBII worth the feat?

Doesn't someone know anything that adds damage or whatever against prone opponents?

[AslanCross]

Shield Ward allows you to add your Shield bonus to your touch AC and to your bonuses to resist bull rush, trip, disarm, overrun, and grapple. (PH2)

It requires Shield Specialization (shield type) which increases your AC by one. Curiously, it doesn't seem to be available for Tower Shields. (PH2)

Shieldmate gives adjacent allies a +1 shield bonus (+2 if you have a tower shield) as long as you are equipped with a shield ready and can act. (Miniatures Handbook)

I can't find anything that helps with prone opponents. All I see are feats that make knocking the opponent prone easier.

[skywalker]

Thanks so far, but I think I clearly said I wanted to optimize a S&W fighter and not optimize a fighter by throwing away the character concept. I'd like to hear something about how I can make him effective while using a shield. I know that he would be stronger without, but I want him to use one.

Question: Shield Charge lets me make a free trip attempt with a shield while charging. Would it make Cometary Collision from PHBII worth the feat?

Doesn't someone know anything that adds damage or whatever against prone opponents?

My ideas for you:
Improved Shield Bash
Two Weapon Fighting
Shield Specialization(Mainly a Gateway Feat)
Shield Sling(Because you're already sub-optimal and it was so cool in 300)

As to your specific questions:
Cometary Collision requires you to ready an action, meaning you don't get to do anything else in the hope that you or someone else will get charged. Very dependent on the DM playing monsters a certain way.

For the dealing extra damage while prone, I cannot think of anything besides the fact that when your opponent is prone, you can power attack for -4 with effectively no penalty. So power attack is the feat I've got for you there.

[TheOOB]

Contrary to popular belief, the +7 shield bonus for using a +5 heavy shield is enough by itself to justify shield usage. Improved shield bash and TWF helps, especially if you throw some rogue in there for sneak attack. Making the shield spikes defending weapons. Making the shield spikes a defending weapon (or hey, making your sword a defending weapon as well) can really make you near impossible to hit. Your damage output may not be high, but you'll outlast your foes. Add in improved trip and standstill (with combat expertise for good measure) and you will be quite the wall in front of your team mates.

[GeneralTacticus]

Since you mentioned the Tome of Battle - Insightful Strike is awesome for a sword & board fighter if you have a good Concentration skill, as it allows you to do lots of damage without needing to stack on ridiculous amounts of Power Attack. It won't help you any when you're tripping people (it needs its own action to activate), but it gives you a nice trump card against opponents you can't trip for whatever reason.

Moment of Perfect Mind is also excellent for a melee class, allowing you to compensate for your low will save (again, this requires a good Concentration skill). However, if you want to take it, you'd probably be much better off taking a level of Warblade and picking it up that way, so you can use it more than once per encounter. I understand not wanting to overshadow the other players, but a one- or two-level dip shouldn't be that overwhelming, and it will make your use of manouevres much more effective. If you go this route, be sure to take it when you have an even number of other class levels, to maximise the manouevre level you have access to.

If you don't want to spend the skill points to max your Concentration (which, as a Fighter, would probably require you to take Able Learner at first level), the Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon manouevres like Rabid Wolf Strike and Mountain Hammer that give you flat damage bonuses are definitely worth a look.

[Matthew]

Be aware that it is possible to use Two Weapon Fighting without actually striking with a Shield whilst using a Shield. Armour Spikes or Unarmed Strike are your Off Hand Weapon in that case.


Shield Feats

Good Shield Feats (Highly recommended)

Block Arrow (Heroes of Battle, BAB 0+, Dexterity 13+) [Negates a Ranged Attack]
Shield Wall (Heroes of Battle, BAB 0+, Shield Proficiency) [+2 AC when in formation]
Shield Specialisation (Players' Handbook II, BAB 0+, Shield Proficiency) [+1 AC with Shield)

Average Shield Feats (High level or specialised stuff)

Shield Charge (Complete Warrior, BAB 3+, Improved Shield Bash)
Shield Slam (Complete Warrior, BAB 6+, Shield Charge)
Shield Snare (Dragon #309, BAB 0+, Improved Shield Bash) [Disarm with Shield],
Shield Ward (Players' Handbook II, BAB 0+ Shield Specialisation) [Add Shield AC against Touch Attacks],

Bad Shield Feats (Basically useless)

Shield Mate (Miniatures Handbook, BAB 1+) [An AC boost for non Shielded allies when in formation].

Feats Mentioned

These Feats are frankly not as good as Block Arrow and Shield Wall.

Phalanx Fighting (Complete Warrior, BAB 1+, Heavy Shield Proficiency) [The problem with this Feat is that it relies on Heavy Shields and Light Weapons, so it cannot be used in conjunction the better weapons]
Formation Expert (Complete Warrior, BAB 6+) [Similarly, this Feat is very specific and requires a high level]

[Azerian Kelimon]

I'd say you should follow the advice: dip two levels in warblade, but take it a step further and do a two level dip in crusader for thicket of blades, and get combat reflexes. If the enemy tries to focus on someone else, it's gonna get pounded big time. AND, you won't overshadow the others too much.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Here's my advice from trying to make a shield/weapon character (I had a similar character last campaign):

THere's a PHBII feat that is essentually TWF, but it only works for shields and doesn't have the Dex 15 prereq. I think it's 'Agile Shield Fighter' or something. My character used a warhammer, got weapon focus and spec for the hammer, and them Melee Weapon Mastery (bludgeoning) to give his shield +2 att/+2 dmg (in addition to bumping up his warhammer abilties). I was an ok damage dealer, but a good tank as well.

[vrellum]

Shield ward should definately be considered a "good shield feat". It not only adds shield bonus to touch attacks, but it also adds the bonus to attempts to resist trips, grapples, bull rushes and I think disarms.

I like phalanx fighting too, but not as much as some of the other feats. +1 to AC is pretty good, if you can convince someone to play along it'll go up to +3 AC. Light weapons aren't so good, but a shortsword is really just about as good as a longsword. I also think you could technically combine it with unarmed strike (and maybe armor spikes), two weapon fight and use a longsword as your primary weapon.

[Matthew]

It depends on how you use it. It's certainly nice to have a Bonus in those circumstances and with a Heavy Shield +1, you're looking at a +4 Bonus. However, it's hard to get the bonus significantly higher than that and its highly circumstance dependent.

Heh, Phalanx Fighting in combination with Unarmed Strike/Armour Spikes and a Long Sword is an amusing work around. The real limitation of the Short Sword is that you cannot use it in conjunction with Power Attack, unlike Unarmed Strike which is specifically excepted.

[Escef]

A two level dip in cleric will get you access to some nifty divine feats to augment your shield and attacks. It will only cost you +1 BAB and a feat, in return you get a slight buff to your (already respectable) fort save, a boost to your wil save (very important for fighter types, everyone expects you to be weak there), access to two domain powers, and spells (iirc, 4 orisons, and at least two first level spells - one of which being a domain spell).

[Darrin]

Question: Shield Charge lets me make a free trip attempt with a shield while charging. Would it make Cometary Collision from PHBII worth the feat?

I'd say no, mostly because you run the risk of wasting a standard action if your opponent chooses not to charge. Also, most charges happen in the first round of combat, and once you're toe-to-toe, you either can't charge or have other things to worry about. Your feats are too valuable to spend them on something you may only use once per encounter, if ever.

If you're making a trip build with Shield Charge, make sure you can charge more than once an encounter. For example, dip Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce, and then pick up the Travel Devotion feat (Comp. Champ.) to get an extra move action for 1 minute. You can then Move+Charge+Pounce 10 rounds in a row. Add some charge-related feats like PA, Leap Attack, Blood-Spiked Charger, or Powerful Charge.

You could do something similar by dipping into Warblade for Wolf Fang Strike and Sudden Leap... add Leaping Dragon Stance or Leap of the Heavens for a DC 10 to jump 10', then charge+pounce.

Agile Shield Fighter... might be better than TWF, since it allows you to use a heavy shield (normally considered a one-handed rather than light weapon) with only a -2 penalty. You can't get a 2nd or 3rd offhand attack... or maybe you can, it's not clear to me if you could combine this feat with TWF and get ImpTWF and GrTWF. That's probably not worth spending so many feats on, though.

Anyone want to weigh in on how Shield Charge works with Improved Trip? I know I probably bored a lot of people to tears on the whole Knockdown/Improved Trip thing, but there's no FAQ or errata to prevent Shield Charge and Improved Trip from giving you a free attack after a successful trip attempt (and Sage Advice appears supportive of this).

[vrellum]

Heh, Phalanx Fighting in combination with Unarmed Strike/Armour Spikes and a Long Sword is an amusing work around. The real limitation of the Short Sword is that you cannot use it in conjunction with Power Attack, unlike Unarmed Strike which is specifically excepted.

True, but if you're S&B then PA is not the best feat anyway.

Pick up combat expertise instead? You'll have a lot of survivability, but you're damage will suffer.

[Matthew]

Power Attack isn't just for Two Handed Weapons. You only lose one iteration of Bonus Damage; a Long Sword with Power Attack, Cleave and Leap Attack is a fine combination; not to mention, for sake of versatility, you can dump the Shield at any point and gain the Bonus Damage by using the Long Sword two handed. That's not to say that Combat Expertise isn't also handy, but Power Attack is the bread and butter of a Fighter build.

Of course, Power Attack was a more sensible feat in 3.0...

[Partysan]

Thank you all for the input.

I'll definitely pick up Block Arrow, I didn't know that one.
I'll consider the Warblade dip, and as I maybe wanted to dip our homebrew viking class which is based on the barbarian I'll also think about the pouncing.
Maybe I'll try to get our DM to rewrite Cometary Collision, so that it works without readying an action but uses up the next action I'd have or something like that.

I looked through the ToB maneuvers, but none of them is against prone opponents - a shame.
Maybe I'll homebrew something there, too.

Again, thanks to you all and of course I'll be glad for all coming advice.