Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Renegade Paladin]

The ITC has announced that their big tournaments (so, like, five events a year) are going to go to the new minimum size because more space = more ticket sales, and Frontline is (of course) going to sell mats in the new sizes. And now we know why the 6'x4' mats have been on clearance the last few weeks.

[Cheesegear]

Apparently they're designed to build up from Kill Team boards?

A Kill Team board is 22*30, so yes. Yes they are.

...I really don’t understand how ‘this is the minimum recommended table size’ can be such a dealbreaker?

Because it isn't.
It's everything.

1. A lot of your collection is going to be invalidated because we're spiking the points costs on everything, and thus, limiting your options.
2. CPs work differently now, meaning half of your Stratagems are useless, and just go ahead and feel free to burn your Vigilus books. If you didn't notice, we're limiting your options.
3. ITC-style Win Conditions which make the game boring as ****.
4. Maelstrom wont be a thing...So just go ahead and burn the rest of your Datacards.
5. And also...We're shrinking tables. Limiting your options.

'This is the thing that broke people.'
No. This is the final thing that convinced already broken people, that they were broken.

The ITC has announced that their big tournaments (so, like, five events a year) are going to go to the new minimum size because more space = more ticket sales, and Frontline is (of course) going to sell mats in the new sizes.

This is the thing when people say 'it's only the minimum size'.
No. I think you'll find that it's the standard size. You could play on a larger table. But nobody else wants to, or will be.

EDIT: I also think 'More Space = More Ticket Sales' is pretty scary.
I feel like it should be 'More Space = The Same Amount of People, But Now We Don't Break the Fire Code.' ...Y'know. 'Cause breaking the Fire Code at a major tournament has happened more than once, which is way too many times.

[Forum Explorer]

1. A lot of people like one Faction, and one Faction only. Diluting the Faction they like, with any other Faction, feels bad, man.
2. Carrying multiple books is hard.

These are the only two arguments I've ever heard that seem reasonable. Even then, I don't understand the first reason at all - and even feel a little bit sad for the people who think like that. Maybe you can justify it if your favourite dudes are Space Sharks, Flesh Tearers or Night Lords, or similar. But everyone else? I don't really get it. Then again Flesh Tearers canonically have fought alongside several other Factions, because Seth is really, really trying to improve their Rep...He just doesn't fight alongside the Inquisition, who will always see his Chapter as abhorrent no matter how hard he succeeds.

(Remember in the Blood Angels series when Gabriel Seth finally got the Fatherly Acknowledgement from Dante that he desperately wanted since forever because he had finally pulled himself, and his Chapter, out of the ****heap by sheer force of will, and bootstraps? ...Ignore that.)

I fully understand that some people who aren't me, find carrying books heavy and inconvenient. On the plus side, no-one needs to bring their Vigilus books to games anymore, right? That's one book, down.

My biggest problem with allies is balance. If your army is supposed to have a weakness, but you can get around that weakness via allies, then you don't have any weaknesses. And armies that don't get to have allies just get to feel bad in comparison. Or you get a bunch of units together that combine in such a way to be insanely powerful. Or one unit is just OP, and now everyone takes them because they can be allied in.

Making allies actually have a cost satisfies me. The doctrine system works pretty well as well, but has the problems of adding army wide special rules just makes your army significantly better than armies who don't get the bonus special rule or allies.

Because it isn't.
It's everything.

1. A lot of your collection is going to be invalidated because we're spiking the points costs on everything, and thus, limiting your options.
2. CPs work differently now, meaning half of your Stratagems are useless, and just go ahead and feel free to burn your Vigilus books. If you didn't notice, we're limiting your options.
3. ITC-style Win Conditions which make the game boring as ****.
4. Maelstrom wont be a thing...So just go ahead and burn the rest of your Datacards.
5. And also...We're shrinking tables. Limiting your options.

'This is the thing that broke people.'
No. This is the final thing that convinced already broken people, that they were broken.



This is the thing when people say 'it's only the minimum size'.
No. I think you'll find that it's the standard size. You could play on a larger table. But nobody else wants to, or will be.

EDIT: I also think 'More Space = More Ticket Sales' is pretty scary.
I feel like it should be 'More Space = The Same Amount of People, But Now We Don't Break the Fire Code.' ...Y'know. 'Cause breaking the Fire Code at a major tournament has happened more than once, which is way too many times.

I disagree on that. I think people are going to be playing on the same tables they always have. Why? Because they've already spent the money and/space on their 4x6 table or playmat. I mean, it would not be easy for my local gamestore to change to that new board type, and worse, it would cost them money as they would have to replace all of their play mats. So they won't. Local tournaments similarly won't change because they borrow their boards and game mats from local game stores. The tournaments certainly don't have the money to spare to get their own. And the players aren't going to mark out the smaller distances on the play mats because that's annoying to do and difficult to do in a way that won't get messed up by a stray pass of your hands.

As for the point increases, well let me predict right now that we'll get a winter Chapter Approved where points will be decreasing again. The whole reason we're playing 2000 points right now was because most things got a point hike going into 8th, and since then there's been a general trend of things going down in points (with a few things being nerfed here and there). To the point where my armies have gotten bigger every single year since 8th dropped.

And I think that will happen again.

[Blackhawk748]

Ya, the "minimum size" is the new "normal size". We could always go bigger, most just didn't unless you were playing Apocalypse or something because 6x4 is big enough. This is just sticking everyone closer together, which could help melee armies but it really just lessens everyone's ability to maneuver.

And as a Kings of War player, maneuvering is everything, so shrinking the table is... questionable. If the points cost go up sufficiently (and it doesn't look like it is, it seems to be something like a 20% ish increase which for infantry is like 2 points.) it would be fine as there won't be a tone of dudes running around.

However, if it doesn't go up enough, for instance if Ad Mech Vanguard go to 9 and Rangers go to 10, you lose like 10 dudes. Maybe. Depending on what else they do you might lose 15 dudes which is fairly minor all things considered.

[Cheesegear]

Making allies actually have a cost satisfies me.

But what about bad armies, who can't afford that cost?

At the top end, Allies are bad for the game and OP.
At the bottom end, Allies are good for the game, and required.

There can't be a blanket solution that works, because each Faction has a different Codex, and not all Codecies are equal.

I disagree on that. I think people are going to be playing on the same tables they always have. Why? Because they've already spent the money and/space on their 4x6 table or playmat.

Yep. And FLG said you should put painter's tape on your board, to mark out the new area. If you have a mat, cut it up.
This is the new normal.
This is what 'resistors' aren't getting. A lot of people aren't going to have a choice in what they do. Because they're going to be told what to do.

New players, coming into the hobby (with all their 2020 cash ), wont understand what 6x4 tables are for. Just like new players don't say 'Dark Eldar', because that term is meaningless to them.

I mean, it would not be easy for my local gamestore to change to that new board type, and worse, it would cost them money as they would have to replace all of their play mats.

FLG said you don't have to replace anything - and they'd know, right?
Any tradesperson will tell you, taking something big, and making it small, is very, very easy.

Local tournaments similarly won't change because they borrow their boards and game mats from local game stores.

My local TOs are already figuring out how.
My local TOs are also calling this a massive win. A smaller play area, with the same play surface (because nobody is going to cut up their tables, right?), means that you can now stack books and Reserves models on the table. Some players are suggesting that because it's not a play area, maybe now they can have drinks water bottles on the table...Oooh...

But, it all feels like reaching.
It feels like we're being told just to 'deal with it', because this is going to be the new normal. Adapt or quit.

And the players aren't going to mark out the smaller distances on the play mats because that's annoying to do...

Yes they will. Just 'cause it's annoying, doesn't mean you don't have to do it. It'll take what, 10 minutes, tops? Then you never have to do it again.
It's a one-off time cost. It's extremely easy, and that's why places like FLG are telling us not to panic (we're not panicking, we're just very, very disappointed).

and difficult to do in a way that won't get messed up by a stray pass of your hands.

Steel ruler. Box cutter.
Your mat is cut.

[Renegade Paladin]

Screw that, not going to do it. We have ruins custom built to fit the blocks on the edge of the urban mat and cutting it down will make them not fit without putting buildings in the middle of the damn street. No. 6'x4' has worked fine for years and it will keep working fine.

[Cheesegear]

Screw that, not going to do it. We have ruins custom built to fit the blocks on the edge of the urban mat and cutting it down will make them not fit without putting buildings in the middle of the damn street. No. 6'x4' has worked fine for years and it will keep working fine.

Don't you hold ITC tournaments?
Just you wait 'til your out-of-town players start demanding you change your boards, because that's what they've designed their armies to play with.

[Forum Explorer]

But what about bad armies, who can't afford that cost?

At the top end, Allies are bad for the game and OP.
At the bottom end, Allies are good for the game, and required.

There can't be a blanket solution that works, because each Faction has a different Codex, and not all Codecies are equal.



Yep. And FLG said you should put painter's tape on your board, to mark out the new area. If you have a mat, cut it up.
This is the new normal.
This is what 'resistors' aren't getting. A lot of people aren't going to have a choice in what they do. Because they're going to be told what to do.

New players, coming into the hobby (with all their 2020 cash ), wont understand what 6x4 tables are for. Just like new players don't say 'Dark Eldar', because that term is meaningless to them.



FLG said you don't have to replace anything - and they'd know, right?
Any tradesperson will tell you, taking something big, and making it small, is very, very easy.



My local TOs are already figuring out how.
My local TOs are also calling this a massive win. A smaller play area, with the same play surface (because nobody is going to cut up their tables, right?), means that you can now stack books and Reserves models on the table. Some players are suggesting that because it's not a play area, maybe now they can have drinks water bottles on the table...Oooh...

But, it all feels like reaching.
It feels like we're being told just to 'deal with it', because this is going to be the new normal. Adapt or quit.



Yes they will. Just 'cause it's annoying, doesn't mean you don't have to do it. It'll take what, 10 minutes, tops? Then you never have to do it again.
It's a one-off time cost. It's extremely easy, and that's why places like FLG are telling us not to panic (we're not panicking, we're just very, very disappointed).



Steel ruler. Box cutter.
Your mat is cut.

All armies now have the same resource pool in that regard. So the cost is the same for everyone. Instead of allies being a convenient way to expand your resource pool if your base army is too expensive to take a lot of detachments.

Besides, I maintain that a design goal for each Codex should be that the Codex can stand on it's own without needing allies.


And FLG doesn't run our bloody tournaments. We can do what we want. For that matter, our play mats are used for more games then just 40K. As a quick example, 9th Age is alive and popular(ish) in my area. So cutting a mat isn't really an option. That would make it 40K only, which is bad for all the other games that are played. So the game companies would need to get separate mats for each game and that costs money that I doubt they would be willing to spend at the best of times. And painter's tape is almost an insult. Our nicely crafted tables get to have an ugly line drawn through them because FLG says so? F them and F that.

And if out of towners want to complain (which I doubt) then they can spend the hundreds of dollars to provide the mats for everyone to use.

Though I've heard that the smaller tables are a way to buff melee, which I can see. I don't really like the method, but a smaller table would make it easier to get to long range stuff.

On a different note, I'm hearing a persistent rumor that Primary Objective Victory Points are going to be capped at 45 points. Which would just utterly ruin everything positive I've said about the new mission design so I really hope that's false.

[LansXero]

...I really don’t understand how ‘this is the minimum recommended table size’ can be such a dealbreaker?

Its one more thing on top of everything else. From COVID keeping people from using their models for 4 months, to then have to re-learn things that have no common point of familiarity (not even table size) to ease into the transition, to redo the wave of spending from early 8th. Its a very discouraging situation.

As for table size specifically, we're not stupid. "suggestions" are mandatory because things are balanced around them. You could've played on any table size before, but never did because the assumed way was 4x6. Homebrew makes hard for expectations to match and mismatched expectations lead to poor play experiences that are harmful to communities.

If it was larger than what is typically used, or a maximum was also set, sure, but it seems a very benign thing to be up in arms over.

A smaller, busier table means that movement and physical maneuvering of models got more troublesome and finicky. it also benefits some armies over other and is yet another component in the "its all a crapshoot now". People dont need this at the moment, they need a return to normalcy and a chance to use what they have and what they know to get them out of the quarantine funk. Not a huge infodump to playtest a brand new ruleset.

(There are definitely other things in the new edition I could see people being up in arms over or wanting to withhold judgement on until it has settled in, but table size?)

It just reached a boiling point as we get closer to reopening. A few people like the new Necron / Primaris models but nobody is looking forward to learning 9th being the first thing we get to do as a community. We had achieved some nice momentum before the quarantine, scrapping that for the new thing isnt anyone's plan; they'd rather keep enjoying 8th until they bore of it enough to actually want the new, and we all hope by then enough FAQs and updates will be out for a smoother transition.

[Cheesegear]

Besides, I maintain that a design goal for each Codex should be that the Codex can stand on it's own without needing allies.

By accident or by design, GW has repeatedly failed at since the start.
This is what Allies, was. It was a stopgap that shored up the glaring weaknesses that were baked into the Codecies. Some Codecies have way more and more obvious weaknesses, than others.

That would make it 40K only, which is bad for all the other games that are played.

Yep. 'Cause GW's plan is and always will be, to try and shaft the competition. Welcome to 32mm bases. Oh, you've got that covered two years in? Well **** you, now we're making 28mm bases.

And painter's tape is almost an insult.

It sure is.

And if out of towners want to complain (which I doubt) then they can spend the hundreds of dollars to provide the mats for everyone to use.

Your tournament isn't like the tournaments we're used to. Change, or we wont come.
How many of those players are there? How many of those players, does your tournament need to function?

The game, and 9th Ed. Codecies, going forwards, are based around smaller boards. Don't play with those boards? Then the rules are going to be unbalanced, one way or the other.

Though I've heard that the smaller tables are a way to buff melee, which I can see.

Smaller tables significantly boost Bolter Discipline, and other Rapid Fire.
But yes. Melee alpha strikes are here to stay.

[Forum Explorer]

It just reached a boiling point as we get closer to reopening. A few people like the new Necron / Primaris models but nobody is looking forward to learning 9th being the first thing we get to do as a community. We had achieved some nice momentum before the quarantine, scrapping that for the new thing isnt anyone's plan; they'd rather keep enjoying 8th until they bore of it enough to actually want the new, and we all hope by then enough FAQs and updates will be out for a smoother transition.

Nothing wrong with that. I'm personally wondering if it'll be worth it to start 9th with the Crusade rules. See how those shake out.

By accident or by design, GW has repeatedly failed at since the start.
This is what Allies, was. It was a stopgap that shored up the glaring weaknesses that were baked into the Codecies. Some Codecies have way more and more obvious weaknesses, than others.



Yep. 'Cause GW's plan is and always will be, to try and shaft the competition. Welcome to 32mm bases. Oh, you've got that covered two years in? Well **** you, now we're making 28mm bases.



It sure is.



Your tournament isn't like the tournaments we're used to. Change, or we wont come.
How many of those players are there? How many of those players, does your tournament need to function?

The game, and 9th Ed. Codecies, going forwards, are based around smaller boards. Don't play with those boards? Then the rules are going to be unbalanced, one way or the other.



Smaller tables significantly boost Bolter Discipline, and other Rapid Fire.
But yes. Melee alpha strikes are here to stay.

Their repeated failures to do so does not make their failures acceptable. If balance is the end goal, then they should just make everyone able to take anything freely from any other codex. Yes that would lead to the exact same list all over the place, but the sense of revulsion I feel towards that is pretty much the same one I feel towards allies.

Yup! And I have no desire to help them with that. If they want to crush their competition then do so through a superior product. Anything else, I'll actively resist.


Our local gamestore can have up to 20 people play at the same time, and when it hosts a tournament we usually get around 18 people. Bigger venues mean more people, and they usually range from 30-50 people. Our biggest tournament is actually only 28 people for 40K, but that's because they run multiple systems at the same time. 40K was 28/140 people present (though IIRC, X-Wing didn't sell out last year, and actually had a poor showing, so there was less than the 140 people planned for.)

Anyways, our tournament scene is lively enough that it would take a pretty serious boycott for tournament organizers to have to bend to the demands of the players. Though in that case, the players would still end up paying for it. Like I said, the tournament organizers typically borrow the mats from local game stores. And our local game stores use the mats for multiple systems. So if the 40K players demanded that they switch the mats, then the tournament organizers would need to actually buy new mats, which means they'd have to raise the entry fee so they could actually afford said mats.

[Cheesegear]

Their repeated failures to do so does not make their failures acceptable. If balance is the end goal, then they should just make everyone able to take anything freely from any other codex.

But 'balance' isn't the end goal. You know, as well as I do, that GW's mission statement is to sell models.
They do that by making sure each unit is worth buying, but also making sure that each unit is different.

However, the problem lies in the fact that GW doesn't even understand how their own games work, and I believe that they don't want to know.

For example, the win conditions of the game, significantly favour shooty armies, with melee alpha strikes that shut down your opponent's shooting.
GW then decides "Here's something we haven't done before." and introduces a melee army, with ranged alpha strikes - let's for example, call this hypothetical army 'Wolves in Space'.

The way Wolves in Space are constructed is new, interesting, and unique. Perfect. That's exactly what you want in a new product line. Unfortunately, the way game works, these totally hypothetical 'Wolves in Space' work, is more or less opposite to the win conditions of the game. That is, within the meta, Wolves in Space can't work, because their interesting and unique design, isn't what the rules of the game ask for.
Thus, this hypothetical Wolves in Space army goes to the bottom of the heap. Through no real fault of GW's.

GW didn't mean to make Wolves in Space bad. That's just how it turned out.

So if the 40K players demanded that they switch the mats, then the tournament organizers would need to actually buy new mats, which means they'd have to raise the entry fee so they could actually afford said mats.

As previously mentioned by myself and others (and FLG themselves); Future releases are going to be desgined and/or costed with smaller boards in mind. Keep using 6*4' at your own risk, I guess.

[Forum Explorer]

But 'balance' isn't the end goal. You know, as well as I do, that GW's mission statement is to sell models.
They do that by making sure each unit is worth buying, but also making sure that each unit is different.

However, the problem lies in the fact that GW doesn't even understand how their own games work, and I believe that they don't want to know.

For example, the win conditions of the game, significantly favour shooty armies, with melee alpha strikes that shut down your opponent's shooting.
GW then decides "Here's something we haven't done before." and introduces a melee army, with ranged alpha strikes - let's for example, call this hypothetical army 'Wolves in Space'.

The way Wolves in Space are constructed is new, interesting, and unique. Perfect. That's exactly what you want in a new product line. Unfortunately, the way game works, these totally hypothetical 'Wolves in Space' work, is more or less opposite to the win conditions of the game. That is, within the meta, Wolves in Space can't work, because their interesting and unique design, isn't what the rules of the game ask for.
Thus, this hypothetical Wolves in Space army goes to the bottom of the heap. Through no real fault of GW's.

GW didn't mean to make Wolves in Space bad. That's just how it turned out.



As previously mentioned by myself and others (and FLG themselves); Future releases are going to be desgined and/or costed with smaller boards in mind. Keep using 6*4' at your own risk, I guess.

True. But a good game is fun to play and a fun game attracts new people. 6th and 7th weren't very balanced and my meta shrank as a result. I think I met nearly a dozen people who left the game due to the rules in 6th and didn't return until 8th. So GW may not be good at it, and may not want to do so, but I think making the game better would actually increase their profits.

That is a good example. GW may not have wanted to fail, but they did. And because Wolves in Space are bad, not many people are spending money on Wolves in Space.


In what regard? Future terrain? I don't care, killteam terrain works fine as ruins if that's what you want to use it as. Future missions? Well that might actually be interesting in it's own way, but I suspect that just means your deployment zone will be deeper than intended and that's it. If you're suggesting that would make GW's releases unbalanced and unfair, then I've got to laugh. As much as I want them to be fair and balanced, like you said, GW is really bad at it.

[Cheesegear]

So GW may not be good at it, and may not want to do so, but I think making the game better would actually increase their profits.

You're gonna have to define 'make the game better', because GW seems to think that the way to make simple accessible.
I think 8th Ed. was almost perfect...Then, predictably, they ruined it with book- and rules-bloat.

That is a good example. GW may not have wanted to fail, but they did.

Why was Space Marines and Death Guard so good (Death Guard is still a competitive Codex, to this day).
But Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines so bad?
All four Codecies were written more or less at the same time.

Why was Space Wolves so bad, but Orks so good?
Again, both books written at generally the same time.

Chaos Daemons and Custodes. Again, same thing. One of those books is really good. The other is barely playable.
The way that GW sees certain Factions, the way their flavour should be and how their units perform, directly has an effect on how the rules get made. "We design rules based on what the model looks like it should do." They don't mean to make bad Codeces...They just do.

"It would be pretty cool if [Faction] could ignore game mechanic, don't you think?"
NO. THAT MECHANIC KEEPS THE GAME FAIR. DON'T LET ANY FACTION IGNORE IT.
"...Too late."

In what regard? Future terrain?

Future rules. Expect to see more Rapid Fire, and more 36" range weapons. 48" range weapons are likely to go away because GW doesn't want ranged armies dominating anymore. Those 36" and Rapid Fire weapons, aren't going to be as good or 'worth their points' on a bigger table.

[Renegade Paladin]

Don't you hold ITC tournaments?
Just you wait 'til your out-of-town players start demanding you change your boards, because that's what they've designed their armies to play with.

I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I have yet to actually run an ITC format tournament, because by the time enough people asked that we were going to give it a shot, the pandemic hit and we had to cancel. People have showed up and played custom and adapted Chapter Approved missions here for years.

[LeSwordfish]

The Space Marine army I've been painting in isolation is coming along really nicely, including a Primaris Captain and a converted Scout Lieutenant. (Remember when I played Space Marines before and one of my Scout Sargeants killed a Chaos Lord, a Dark Angels Company Master, and a Mawloc? He's got promoted.) Several pictures at my Instagram.



Currently, I have

Spoiler

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Primaris Captain - Powerfist, Plasma Pistol - 92pts
Primaris Lieutenant - Power Sword - 69pts
Phobos Lieutenant - Occulus Bolt Carbine - 81pts

Intercessor Squad - AGL, Powerfist - 95
Intercessor Squad - AGL, Powerfist - 95
Intercessor Squad - Stalker Bolt Rifles - 85
Scout Squad - Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher - 148

Aggressor Squad - Boltstorm Gauntlets - 111
Ancient - 69
Apothecary - 60
Ironclad Dreadnought - Chainfist, Storm Bolter, Meltagun, Assault Launchers, Missiles - 131

Which comes to a bit more than 1000pts, plus some other Lieutenants that I literally see no need to ever use. Next I'm probably going to change tack and paint some of the Titanicus models I have lying around, but when I get bored with that I'll probably turn this into a more normal-looking 1k army by dropping the scouts for a Stormtalon or Contemptor Dreadnought. I also have some Suppressors, Hellblasters, and Eliminators waiting to be assembled, plus a Librarian, Ferrios, and some Medusan Immortals I'm going to kitbash into Primaris Bladeguard. I'm most excited about that last project, but holding out to see if they announce any more information about Bladeguard, in case they also get thunder hammers or something.

[Cheesegear]

The Space Marine army I've been painting in isolation is coming along really nicely, including a Primaris Captain and a converted Scout Lieutenant.

Looking very good.
Is that the snow thing you're talking about, that covers up mistakes on the feet? Or was that accidental?

I'm most excited about that last project, but holding out to see if they announce any more information about Bladeguard, in case they also get thunder hammers or something.

What's your plan?
Being Australian, I'm unlikely to start buying new kits anytime soon. Any ideas would be great.

[Renegade Paladin]

Frontline Gaming's statement on table sizes in full.

FLG, the ITC and the New 40k Play Surface Size

Alright, the cat is finally out of the bag on the table size thing so we can actually speak somewhat freely about it.

Today GW announced that the new standard minimum size for a 2,000pt game was going to be 44×60″. We wanted to share some insights about this and where we stand on the topic.

First: do you have to switch your table size? No. As they say in the article, it’s not required if you want to stick to a 4×6′ although it is good to know that 9th was designed to be played on a smaller surface and the missions as many of you have seen were designed with that in mind. They still function on a 6×4′ for sure, but I wanted to put that out there. Will the ITC require this change? No. Use what you have.

Second: why did GW do this? The answer as it has been related to us and as as it was outlined in the article is incredibly simple : it allows new players to build a table using Kill Team boards that easily fit into boxes. That’s it. No conspiracy, a simple choice based on what they felt was best for accessibility to the game from a business perspective. It’s also been related to us that this size fits particularly well on many common kitchen tables such as those you can purchase at Ikea to make it easier for new players or players with no access to a club or FLGS to play at home.

Third: did we at Frontline have any input on this choice? No. We have absolutely zero influence on or usually even knowledge of product development choices GW makes. We only give feedback on rules in our role as playtesters. We were pretty surprised when we learned about this ourselves.

Fourth: will we be running our events on these new sized surfaces? Yes we will. Also, other events such as NOVA, Adepticon, the LGT, Battle for Salvation, and many more are making the switch as well. Just ask your local community organizer in advance what to expect to avoid any dissapointment[sic].

Fith: My thoughts: once I got over my shock and initial aversion to the idea, and I saw that it was much better for the long term logistics of event organization, I started to come around on it. You can fit a lot more people in the same space for a Game Store or organized play event which helps them to succeed, you need less terrain to get started and over time, it will make it a lot easier to get involved as a community organizer as the barrier to entry has been lowered. A smaller game really is a better game, it’s just jarring now to people like all of us that have made investments in terrain and mats/play surfaces assuming that that wasn’t going to change.

Sixth: Do you have to buy new gaming surfaces? No, you can continue to use what you have, you can cut your existing mats down if you feel comfortable doing that, you can use painters tape to mark the smaller area, you can mark on them with a pen if that suits you, or any number of ways to use what you have without having to shell out any more money. We will have the new sized mats available soon, but it is not a requirement to purchase them if you do not want to, of course.

Hopefully in time, after the dust settles, you all can see the very real long term benefits to this change. And again, if you want to continue to play on a 4×6? Go for it! The world is your oyster.

Also, Adam at TFG Radio has... opinions.

[LansXero]

It’s also been related to us that this size fits particularly well on many common kitchen tables such as those you can purchase at Ikea to make it easier for new players or players with no access to a club or FLGS to play at home.

Because these:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....AC_SL1500_.jpg

are mysterious archeotech from the dark age of technology and impossible for casuals to find. If they want to sell KT boards, then why not just say that? Why try to make it sound like its for the players?

The more space in venue is also bullcrap, as wooden boards to sit stuff on aren't cut to order, and 6x4 is a much more common size than whatever weirdness you'd need to contort to to actually milk a few extra tables out of the same venue. Not to mention the bit about terrain. Decreasing surface but increasing density leaves you with pretty much the same amount of pieces; its not like you'll clip woods, craters and buildings down to proportionally decrease what you use.

[Squark]

Because these:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....AC_SL1500_.jpg

are mysterious archeotech from the dark age of technology and impossible for casuals to find. If they want to sell KT boards, then why not just say that? Why try to make it sound like its for the players?

A lot of those tables I see don't actually fit a 6×4 match well. The two at home are too small to do one game each, and too large to easily reach the center of the board when you put two together, especially if you're not on the tall side.

As for the KT boards, I suspect it's less selling the KT boards, and more making it easier to jump from KT to 40k.

[LeSwordfish]

Because these:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....AC_SL1500_.jpg

are mysterious archeotech from the dark age of technology and impossible for casuals to find. If they want to sell KT boards, then why not just say that? Why try to make it sound like its for the players?

i'm not buying a trestle table for my apartment you lunatic

Looking very good.
Is that the snow thing you're talking about, that covers up mistakes on the feet? Or was that accidental?

Indeed - I mostly have the snow because I like it, but it does mean that if I drybrush a little enthusiastically and splodge the feet, I can disguise it with a thicker than usual snowdrift.

What's your plan?
Being Australian, I'm unlikely to start buying new kits anytime soon. Any ideas would be great.

What i'm specifically going for is "Iron Hands Intercessor Breachers", so your mileage may vary, but the plan is:

• Intercessor bodies
• Medusan Immortal arms and shields. The ordinary breacher shields will be cheaper, or you could use Vanguard veterans, or Custodes if your bladeguard are the ritzy kind. I was tempted by the idea of giving them Custode storm shields and Guardian Spears but thought that might be pushing it.
• Whatever spare power swords I have lying around. After a while you build up a collection, you know?
• Some of the Immortals are in the classic Breacher pose - give them the MKIII bolters, theyre about the right size for intercessor-scale bolt pistols.
• I want to use MKIII helmets but they're just a *bit* too big for intercessors - the long nose doesn't fit certain angles in the raised gorget. Instead i'll probably stick with the tactical marine helmets ive been using so far.

[Whoracle]

Hey everyone!

Haven't played since shortly after Necrons came out in 2nd, but recently had the bug to at least build and paint again. And even though I'm mightily rusty I wanted to share my first mini in roundabout 20 years!

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Low effort drybrushing technique instead of really blocking out the colors and edge highlighting stuff, but eh, I like the look AND it safes me effort :)

Anyone got newbiefriendly pointers on making Dark Angels robes out of green stuff?

[JNAProductions]

Hey everyone!

Haven't played since shortly after Necrons came out in 2nd, but recently had the bug to at least build and paint again. And even though I'm mightily rusty I wanted to share my first mini in roundabout 20 years!

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Low effort drybrushing technique instead of really blocking out the colors and edge highlighting stuff, but eh, I like the look AND it safes me effort :)

Anyone got newbiefriendly pointers on making Dark Angels robes out of green stuff?

Looks good!

As for how to make robes... Witchcraft? :P

[Forum Explorer]

You're gonna have to define 'make the game better', because GW seems to think that the way to make simple accessible.
I think 8th Ed. was almost perfect...Then, predictably, they ruined it with book- and rules-bloat.



Why was Space Marines and Death Guard so good (Death Guard is still a competitive Codex, to this day).
But Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines so bad?
All four Codecies were written more or less at the same time.

Why was Space Wolves so bad, but Orks so good?
Again, both books written at generally the same time.

Chaos Daemons and Custodes. Again, same thing. One of those books is really good. The other is barely playable.
The way that GW sees certain Factions, the way their flavour should be and how their units perform, directly has an effect on how the rules get made. "We design rules based on what the model looks like it should do." They don't mean to make bad Codeces...They just do.

"It would be pretty cool if [Faction] could ignore game mechanic, don't you think?"
NO. THAT MECHANIC KEEPS THE GAME FAIR. DON'T LET ANY FACTION IGNORE IT.
"...Too late."



Future rules. Expect to see more Rapid Fire, and more 36" range weapons. 48" range weapons are likely to go away because GW doesn't want ranged armies dominating anymore. Those 36" and Rapid Fire weapons, aren't going to be as good or 'worth their points' on a bigger table.

I agree that 8th was almost perfect. And that it got bloated (which I say actually hit the point of a flaw around Psychic Awakening). But 9th is addressing many of the things I felt were flaws, so I'm cautiously optimistic about it.

Are you seriously asking? Cause we can go into game theory and the like to figure out what makes something good, and if we can figure that out, then GW isn't using whatever we did to know if something is good or not.

I'd be surprised if they actually decreased the range on existing weapons. The only time I've heard of that happening is with the Deathstrike Missile Launcher, which went from literally infinite to basically anywhere on the board.

[Squark]

i'm not buying a trestle table for my apartment you lunatic

2 trestle tables, actually

My Dad has two of them he uses for quilting, and they're each 72" x 30". So I could play a game on two of them, but that awkward 3xtra 6" on each long edge make reaching for the center challenging, but is too small to really be used for large groups of reserves/casualties or a book. So you're probably looking at 2 treste tables and a third s8rface of some kind for storage.

While I certainly see the advantages of a large board, they generally seem to require specialized spaces or surfaces, which is not the easiest sell for kitchen table players. Personally, I wonder if it might have been better if GW had reduced ranges in addition to shrinking the board.

[LansXero]

2 trestle tables, actually

My Dad has two of them he uses for quilting, and they're each 72" x 30". So I could play a game on two of them, but that awkward 3xtra 6" on each long edge make reaching for the center challenging, but is too small to really be used for large groups of reserves/casualties or a book. So you're probably looking at 2 treste tables and a third s8rface of some kind for storage.

While I certainly see the advantages of a large board, they generally seem to require specialized spaces or surfaces, which is not the easiest sell for kitchen table players. Personally, I wonder if it might have been better if GW had reduced ranges in addition to shrinking the board.

We have a foldable wooden one that can go on top of a regular-sized desk of table. Weights barely anything (Im a weak nerd and can lift it in one arm) and takes no more space than a travel case. The new table size isnt significantly smaller to be played on vastly different settings / furniture; 6" to each side might make some tables viable that weren't before, but it is still a large footprint, as are minis, reserves, etc. There must be a narrow band of people who were juuuust short of enough space to play that now can, but in reality it doesnt add that many new viable spaces.

[LeSwordfish]

I dont know: Ikea tables are very common in the UK, and they come in a few specific sizes. 6" space on each side is great, though - I've played tournaments of about that amount and find it invaluable.

[Wraith]

Anyone got newbiefriendly pointers on making Dark Angels robes out of green stuff?

Roll out a square sheet of green stuff. Cut out a very long, thin triangle; the pointed end goes under his armpit and down to his knee. Do that on his left and right side, then wrap a rectangle around his back to join the three parts together, and don't forget to leave a gap to affix his backpack.

I too have finally - FINALLY - done a little painting like I kept promising myself I would while in lockdown. In fact, I made a project of it since a group of like-minded friends agreed to do a competition in order to inspire each other. The rules are: Paint 1 Space Marine, and win bragging rights. Works for me.

I decided to paint Sevrin Loth. If you're not familiar with that character, this is him:

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(Imgur hard-link: Sevrin Loth)

He's the Master Librarian of the Red Scorpions, and once upon a time he was arguably the best psyker in the game. Unfortunately I do not HAVE Sevrin Loth because he is only available from Forgeworld and with his Command Squad - $60 of resin for one model? No, thanks.

So I decided to build my own.

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(Imgur hard-link: Grey plastic)

Obviously a couple of differences. I don't play Red Scorpions and I'm not inclined to repaint 3000pts of Black Templars to start now. Instead, I tweaked the design to make him a Grey Knight Justicar/Librarian, so that he might get used in my Kill Team squad.
The bits are mostly Vanguard Veteran, with GK legs, an old metal GK Justicar arm, a Horus Heresy-era helmet and a Grey Knight Paladin standard/book-thing. The hardest part to source was the left hand, which eventually got stolen from one of my Thousand Sons Sorcerers. The storm boltor is slightly off-centre, but you can only really tell when looking at the model from beneath, so who cares?

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(Imgur hard-link: Silver plastic)

Added the shield because I like the shields, and it looks closer to Loth's reinforced breastplate. I love painting Grey Knights, the basecoat is so simple and yet so immediately recognisable.

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(Imgur hard-link: Base coat)

Really not sure about the gold. I'm pretty sure that the paint I'm using has gotten old - it is both too thin and too thick in different areas and I don't think I have shaken/mixed it properly, so it's a lot more yellow than the Burnished Gold that was promised on the bottle. Might settle down a bit after a wash or two, however right now I want to scrub it clean and start over with new paint.

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(Imgur hard-link: 95% done)

Bit of advice for aspiring painters; see it through to the end before you make a decision on whether or not it's working - it takes just as long to strip a half-painted model as it does a finished one, so you might as well make all your mistakes at once and learn from them sooner rather than later.

You can see what I mean about the gold - it looks much better after a coat of two of Liquid Talent, but the pauldron is blotchy and textured where it should be smooth. It might be that I've used too much gold and should change some of the details back to silver, because right now it looks a bit more Iron Fists than Grey Knights, but I'm really happy with the pose and details. Just need to tidy up a few edges, a tiny buit of highlighting, drill out the barrels and finish the base, and I think we're done.

I really liked this project - taking an old Space Marine Character and rebuilding him into a 'clone' for the Grey Knights. I think I'm going to do some more - Azrael as a Justicar (to give him that sexy pointed faceplate) and maybe Gabriel Angelos as a Paladin (so that he doesn't suck...) would be fun. I don't think I'll win the competition, but I've *finally* made a tiny dent in my backlog at least!

[Avaris]

Regarding tables, my approach has always been to get six 4 ft by 1 ft loft floor boards as a surface. Having measured my table just now, it's a few inches short of the minimum width in the new rules, so I'll probably still use the boards, though cold lose one off the end, which might be helpful for space. Or just use the extra space for books etc: the big challenge of a standard 6x4 is that you also need somewhere for all the gaming accessories you can have!

[Cheesegear]

[*]Medusan Immortal arms and shields. The ordinary breacher shields will be cheaper, or you could use Vanguard veterans, or Custodes if your bladeguard are the ritzy kind. I was tempted by the idea of giving them Custode storm shields and Guardian Spears but thought that might be pushing it.

Be careful when you use entire small!Marine arms. The best ones I've seen have cut the hands off, and glued the hands to the Primaris arms, so at least scale is almost maintained. For Storm Shields, you're going to be mostly lucky that the Shield covers the hand. But you may get into trouble when you're looking at weapons.

The best conversions I've seen, use Aggressors and/or Gravis Captains, and Terminator parts. The Bladeguard look like they're on 40mm bases, so that's what I'd go for. But I play Imperial Fists, so I loves me some Heavy Infantry...And now that I've thought about it, that's exactly what I'm going to do.

Whatever spare power swords I have lying around. After a while you build up a collection, you know?

I'd strongly recommend Custodes' parts. Then you can build the actual Custodes with Spears, and at least you'll still have usable models.