The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Lilapop]

Psure that image is the half ogre from Savage Species.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I disagree with this conclusion. The ½ illithid might lose access to a tier of spells.
But all the other, more numerous spells it has is still cast at +2 difficulty.

That's exactly what I said... I don't see how you disagree with anything.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Put me down for +2. This is solid for martial classes; tanky, decent damage, and the downsides (outside of LA) are small.

[danielxcutter]

Isn't half-troll the template that ties the Emerald Legion together? There's more than Primordial cheese on this template.

Eh, it’s mostly to turn War Trolls back into the Giant type. They’re normally monstrous humanoids, remember?

[Thurbane]

As a DM, I like to use the Half-giant template to open to the door for Lycanthropy and other templates.

[Blue Jay]

Eh, it’s mostly to turn War Trolls back into the Giant type. They’re normally monstrous humanoids, remember?

As a DM, I like to use the Half-giant template to open to the door for Lycanthropy and other templates.

This is kind of a pet peeve of mine. The template-stacking and stuff can be interesting as a theoretical challenge, but template-stacking and dumpster-diving just to unlock requirements has a tendency to make the game feel awfully bureaucratic, and that's a real downer for me. As a DM, I strongly prefer to relax or waive requirements: if the player wants something badly enough that they'll bend over backwards and rules-lawyer their way through a bunch of bureaucratic hoops to get it, it's usually better for everyone if you streamline the process and just let them have it (within reason, of course).

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Oh, and I think I like LA +2 for the Half-Troll. I think it fits comfortably alongside Half-Dragon and Phrenic, so that's the perfect spot for it.

[lord_khaine]

That's exactly what I said... I don't see how you disagree with anything.

If you were being dramatic, you might say that, in terms of boosting save DC, half-illithid is only about as good as Spell Focus, which you could probably have gottent if you hadn't just lost two levels to LA.

Thats the bit i disagreed with. Your conclusion that you could say its only about as good as spell focus.

[liquidformat]

Thats the bit i disagreed with. Your conclusion that you could say its only about as good as spell focus.

Too be fair since the template does already have +2 LA few will be looking at gishing with it so the added natural attacks are not particularly useful especially when polymorph does a better job of it. That leaves SR and telepathy as the only other benefits from the template for a caster. SR is a double edged sword that can be replicated through spells if needed and a 1 level mindbender dip is hands down better way to get telepathy. So in the end +4 to casting stat is the only draw to this template for a caster, and while +4 to your casting stat is worth more than spell focus it isn't enough to justify a +2 LA for a caster. Remember by the time you have +2 LA you are enough behind that you aren't gaining any extra spells or skill points from that higher caster stat so you are effectively paying 2 LA for spell focus at that point.

I believe ExLibrisMortis did a great job of highlighting this fact.

Isn't half-troll the template that ties the Emerald Legion together? There's more than Primordial cheese on this template.

what is the emerald legion and why would anyone want to ruin war trolls by making them giants, being a giant is strictly inferior to being a monstrous humanoid?

[danielxcutter]

So they can gain the Lycanthrope template.

FYI, that is one of the less cheesy parts. And the less squicky as well.

[Mike Miller]

I agree with +2.

[danielxcutter]

Do we have a half-something that wasn’t +2? Obviously half-lings don’t count, ha ha.

[DeTess]

Do we have a half-something that wasn’t +2?

Well, there's...

Obviously half-lings don’t count, ha ha.

...nevermind.

I agree on half-troll being +2, btw, though I wouldn't play one in a high-level game without buy-off. Past the low teens fast-healing 5 really starts to lose it's lustre, and the stat bonuses also stop keeping up with what a couple more levels in a martial initiator might give you. At low levels that fast healing 5 is really good though, and those stat boosts also make up for a level and a bit.

[liquidformat]

Do we have a half-something that wasn’t +2? Obviously half-lings don’t count, ha ha.

half celestial and half fiend are both +3

[AMX]

Half-Giant (XPH) got +1.
Also Half-Elf is a zero.

[Angrith]

what is the emerald legion and why would anyone want to ruin war trolls by making them giants, being a giant is strictly inferior to being a monstrous humanoid?

I'm fairly certain this is the post being referred to. It's a way for an arbitrary evil mastermind to mass produce a nigh-unkillable army.

EDIT: grammar

[Remuko]

Well, there's...

...nevermind.

I agree on half-troll being +2, btw, though I wouldn't play one in a high-level game without buy-off. Past the low teens fast-healing 5 really starts to lose it's lustre, and the stat bonuses also stop keeping up with what a couple more levels in a martial initiator might give you. At low levels that fast healing 5 is really good though, and those stat boosts also make up for a level and a bit.

this comment has convinced me to vote +1.

[lord_khaine]

Absolutely LA +2 at the very least.

You need to balance stuff for the point where its the most broken. Not the least.
Because definitly picked the first place, and unlikely to be picked the last.

Thats why it doesnt matter if this is less good around level 17.
If it unbalance a campaign around level 6, then it definitly need a LA that fits that play range.

[danielxcutter]

Absolutely LA +2 at the very least.

You need to balance stuff for the point where its the most broken. Not the least.
Because definitly picked the first place, and unlikely to be picked the last.

Thats why it doesnt matter if this is less good around level 17.
If it unbalance a campaign around level 6, then it definitly need a LA that fits that play range.

An at-will attack that deals 9d6 damage would break the game at level 1. Don’t see how warlocks would require LA.

[Blue Jay]

An at-will attack that deals 9d6 damage would break the game at level 1. Don’t see how warlocks would require LA.

If a warlock could deal 9d6 damage at level 1, I would not call a DM crazy for wanting to put some LA on it.

[danielxcutter]

If a warlock could deal 9d6 damage at level 1, I would not call a DM crazy for wanting to put some LA on it.

Okay, maybe I misphrased that, but just because some abilities are powerful at one point doesn’t mean they should be treated like they’re always going to be powerful. Warblades and Incarnates are apparently extremely powerful at level 1; does that mean they are horrible classes that should be nerfed at all levels of play?

[ExLibrisMortis]

If a warlock could deal 9d6 damage at level 1, I would not call a DM crazy for wanting to put some LA on it.

For sure. The point stands, however. At 4d6 nonstacking and nonscaling, you should probably let it slide (assuming it's the single racial feature on an otherwise blank humanoid), even if it's a bit more powerful than you'd usually have at that level*. At ECL 5 that 4d6 is going to be unremarkable, and at ECL 7 it's downright average: every build will have an equivalent trick online by then, and that at-will ability will either be a slightly improved crossbow backup, a bonus reserve feat, or just forgotten.



*4d6 EB is essentially a greatsword barbarian (2d6+7 is equivalent to 4d6) with the perks of being ranged, touch, and ignoring DR (and being SR: yes, but that's not a big deal). So it's good, in the sense of being reliable, and probably your go-to attack, but it won't give the DM any special trouble (being just damage, and not quite whirlpounce levels at that).

[Blue Jay]

Okay, maybe I misphrased that, but just because some abilities are powerful at one point doesn’t mean they should be treated like they’re always going to be powerful.

I don't think there's an "always" implied in there: it's just treating the low-level game as a greater priority than the high-level game. More games are played at low levels than at high levels. So, it makes sense to treat low-level balance as more important than high-level balance.

[Inevitability]

Huecava

Did you know OotS has a huecava character? Did you know said character appears in more comics than the Azure City Teleport Wizard, Elan's mother, or Dorukan? Now you do!

As far as templates go, this one's very selective: it can only be applied to humanoid paladins, clerics, druids, and monks. It sets HD to d12, grants +4 natural armor, and adds a slam attack (which also infects people with a disease, but it's weak and you shouldn't care about it).

Additionally, huecavas get DR 15/silver, +2 to wisdom, strength, and charisma, and -6 intelligence.

There's also a few edge rules for when clerics and paladins become huecavas. The former lose their original domains and get Death and Evil instead (strong contenders for the worst domains in the game), while the latter gain special abilities as if they were fallen paladins who became blackguards.

The latter part is actually very exploitable! Not only does it mean an 11th-level paladin can freely become a huecava paladin 1/blackguard 10, it also doesn't say anything about being a non-good variant paladin. In theory, a paladin of tyranny who goes skeletal would still keep all of his old class features and gain extra Smite Good, Sneak Attack, summoning, and Lay on Hands on top of that. The latter is especially amusing because it means becoming undead improved their healing abilities.

That said, ignoring paladin shenanigans for now the huecava is hardly exceptional, especially with its narrow range of viable classes. Clerics and druids don't want to lose spell levels (and clerics want to keep their domains, too), paladins don't want to fall, and monks are, well, monks. The template may not have been designed with evil paladins in mind, but it sure works better for them than for any other class.

A strong +1, and perhaps worth raising to +2 with sufficient shenanigans, but held back by several large downsides and limited applicability.

[liquidformat]

Hum, this is a hard one for me because to be frank the template kind of sucks and I am confident that at level 10+ and for all levels for anyone except a paladin it is a +0 LA template.

You have a net ability score of 0 and a -6 int frankly hurts more than +2 to str, wis and cha. Similarly being forced to trade in your domains for death and evil means it is a template you would never take on a cloistered cleric or a cleric that has already gotten its first prc/ extra domains. So besides getting two crappy domains shoved down your throat they quite possibly have a decent cost to them. Druid doesn't care about the NA, DR, nor the str bonus and even the cha bonus isn't much so even at +0 this template is loosing a lot for them. Like said above this template is probably best on paladins, if the game starts at level 10 or higher the paladin isn't gaining much except the ability to have blackguard levels without meeting the prerequisites. The real paladin shenanigans come from the a paladin of tyranny or slaughter who starts the game at level 1-9 with this template, as they are getting a couple extra benefits every couple of levels. Finally monk, while they enjoy the str and wis bonus along with the slam, NA, and DR the cha bonus isn't useful and the hit to int hurts. Also the bonus to turning isn't great and will be a concern across the board.

Given everything if not for the possible abuse of this template for paladins I would be comfortable with +0, DR 15/silver is easy enough even for a level 1 character to overcome even if it will come into play and be helpful. Also any game that starts at level 10+ similarly +0 LA seems reasonable especially since the DR has lost most of its use by then. So the only real issue is paladins under level 10, yet given the fact that you aren't just given all of those benefits at once, they are dependent on your paladin level, and non of them are particularly powerful I am comfortable with +1 LA.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I am not sure most paladin shenanigans would work anyways. Paladin is renamed if you introduce the other 3, so anything that references paladin would either a) go off the new name or b) fail to work with any of the four, as the class is not "paladin" but "paladin of tyranny/slaughter/freedom/honor." Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 huecava is still viable though.


Ugh, this is like +1.4-1.6. Aside from monk (who will trade out their skill points for combat potential) and blackguard I am not sure how useful this is on cleric and druid (probably not much). But DR 15/silver + undead typing is a defensive powerhouse* that will require specific tools or a lot of fireballs to kill. I will leave it as +2 for the moment with the option to freely change my mind based on other people's analyses.

*I did swordwraith at +1 with DR 10/magic and silver and was essentially untouchable until I fought literally 30 dragons at once, so I am basing my defensive analysis off of that.

[liquidformat]

I am not sure most paladin shenanigans would work anyways. Paladin is renamed if you introduce the other 3, so anything that references paladin would either a) go off the new name or b) fail to work with any of the four, as the class is not "paladin" but "paladin of tyranny/slaughter/freedom/honor." Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 huecava is still viable though.

You are completely wrong this is in no way RAW or RAI; the three variant paladins are variants not unique classes and are therefore treated as paladin for all things dependent on being a paladin. Also 'paladin of honor' isn't an actual thing it is only a suggestion for naming.

These paladin variants aren't meant to be unique classes in and of themselves, but rather alignment-based variations of the paladin.

Ugh, this is like +1.4-1.6. Aside from monk (who will trade out their skill points for combat potential) and blackguard I am not sure how useful this is on cleric and druid (probably not much). But DR 15/silver + undead typing is a defensive powerhouse* that will require specific tools or a lot of fireballs to kill. I will leave it as +2 for the moment with the option to freely change my mind based on other people's analyses.

*I did swordwraith at +1 with DR 10/magic and silver and was essentially untouchable until I fought literally 30 dragons at once, so I am basing my defensive analysis off of that.

While I do agree with you that DR 15/silver is very powerful below level 10~ at the same time silver weapons are easily available at level 1 and would be reasonable to be seen in many if not most of your encounters if you are playing as a mostly evil party where Huecava is likely to be found.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You are completely wrong this is in no way RAW or RAI; the three variant paladins are variants not unique classes and are therefore treated as paladin for all things dependent on being a paladin. Also 'paladin of honor' isn't an actual thing it is only a suggestion for naming.

Fair, but huecava touching the evils paladins is not RAI either, and those all are all explicitly only accessible with DM permission (as per the opening of Unearthed Arcana) that trying to include them in an analysis seems pointless.

While I do agree with you that DR 15/silver is very powerful below level 10~ at the same time silver weapons are easily available at level 1 and would be reasonable to be seen in many if not most of your encounters if you are playing as a mostly evil party where Huecava is likely to be found.

So the easy solution is to obviously be trying to gun for the character by giving every weapons specifically designed to bypass their defensive and eschewing monster encounters entirely? That's bad DMing at best in most situations; DR/silver is rare, so there is no "reasonable" way to spam it.

Lock me in at +2; you have convinced me

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'll go with LA +1. I'd rather take Quasilycanthrope than this.

[Thurbane]

OK, lets have a look here:

• Change type to undead, with all the usual goodies (and some drawbacks): the single most appealing thing about this template.
• +4 natural AC: OK-ish.
• Slam attack: meh. OK if you need a natural attack for something, I guess.
• Huecuva Blight: a disease attack that sees no benefit in combat, only days afterwards.
• DR 15/silver: probably the second best thing about the template.
• Divine Conversion: a weird restriction on your domains if you are a Cleric; also, pseudo Blackguard for Paladins. Not sure how to feel about the second part.
• Str +2, Con --, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha +2: net +0 (and one nonability, of course) and a massive hit to Int. Not good.
• Toughness as a bonus feat: all bonus feats are good, but Toughness? Meh.

If not for the DR 15/silver, this would be inferior to Necropolitan IMHO. Skills are important for all characters, to some degree, and -6 Int hurts. Badly. I'd rate this LA +1, but not a great one, unless you can exploit the Paladin clause.

[Efrate]

+1 almost exclusively on the paladin bits.