The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[Dimers]

Damage reduction does in fact not go out of style. Even at very high levels there are still monsters and demons with nasty claws, but no hands to hold a magic sword.

Many high-level monsters bypass DR/magic because they themselves have DR/magic: "Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction." EDIT: which means the un-updated Iron Cobra's bite attack would also penetrate those monsters' DR, not that its bite attack is particularly good.

It has 5/admantium according to the update booklet. Scales better functioning at higher levels but less immune to all damage.

Interesting. That's better. Still not enough to overcome lack of hands and active/offensive options, mind you, but an improvement.

[danielxcutter]

Im sold on this argumentation.
Assuming the mindless bit is bypassed, then this can likely remain extremely viable for 4-6 levels. And i have seen a lot of campagns that ended earlier.
Also with assumed custom magic items being available, the lack of item slots are suddenly less relevant.

So my vote becomes LA +1.
In part because damage reduction does in fact not go out of style. Even at very high levels there are still monsters and demons with nasty claws, but no hands to hold a magic sword.

Minor niggle; I’m pretty sure creatures with DR/Adamantine can penetrate it (and vice-versa). Not that it’s going to be terribly common, but just saying.

[lord_khaine]

Many high-level monsters bypass DR/magic because they themselves have DR/magic: "Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction." EDIT: which means the un-updated Iron Cobra's bite attack would also penetrate those monsters' DR, not that its bite attack is particularly good.

.. you know. Trying to lecture someone about the most basic mechanics of the game is genuinly insulting in a thread thats this technical

That aside. There are actually not that many high level monsters who do have DR magic.
For example. A lot of Evil Outsiders have either Good, a Metal, or both. None of that works against DR magic.

Minor niggle; I’m pretty sure creatures with DR/Adamantine can penetrate it (and vice-versa). Not that it’s going to be terribly common, but just saying.

If you take a close look at my post. Then you can see its made -after- someone posted an update on it.
Im rating the monster as presented. Who have Dr/magic 10. Not that it changes my vote.

[ZamielVanWeber]

While, as a construct, this thing will suck at high levels because HP disaster, I can see it working fine at low to mid levels, especially due to it's defensive prowess. Assuming you bypass Int - without losing those put me down for LA +0.

[liquidformat]

[LIST][*]Str +2, Dex +6, Con --, Int --, Cha -10; net -2 with two non-abilities. Obviously we're assuming you somehow get Int to be playable. Note that as written, Awaken Construct only works on humanoid shaped constructs.

How are we handling the interaction with awaken construct? I believe with animals we hand waved awaken and ignored it from the analysis because it adds 2 hd and +1d3 Cha which made it rather difficult to give an actual number to. However, in the case of Awaken Construct you simply roll 3d6 for Int, Wis, and Cha directly replacing their previous scores, which makes it pretty straight forward to add into the analysis. So effectively Iron Cobra should have Str +2, Dex +6, Con --; net+8 at creation.

Looking back at the previously rated books that have been evaluated it doesn't appear we ever looked at awaken construct since it wouldn't have made a difference with 8+ construct hd; however, we have used the ooze template in evaluating them.

Im sold on this argumentation.
Assuming the mindless bit is bypassed, then this can likely remain extremely viable for 4-6 levels. And i have seen a lot of campagns that ended earlier.
Also with assumed custom magic items being available, the lack of item slots are suddenly less relevant.

So my vote becomes LA +1.
In part because damage reduction does in fact not go out of style. Even at very high levels there are still monsters and demons with nasty claws, but no hands to hold a magic sword.

While DR doesn't go out of style due to lack of a constitution score it is effectively taking the place of a con bonus to HP (a bypassible one at that) which makes it less of a 'juicy bonus' and more of a stop gap to lack of HP compared to it contemporaries. However, with that said it is a bonus until approximately Level ~3-6 due to the interaction between medium sized HP bonus and DR.

Also since it does have a bite attack the Iron Cobra can in fact have a sword if it wants one...

Over all to rate the Iron Cobra I think it is fine to ignore the Stalk Victim ability, knowing the direction of a creature I know the name of within 1600 feet of me isn't particularly useful especially when I would have to cast the spell at least 4 times to actually check a full 1600' radius around myself. Poison also isn't super useful with 1d4 str damage and DC 14, even with heavy feat investment you are still looking at maybe DC 16-18, might as well just replace with a mouthpick weapon. So that leave Construct type NA +3, DR 5/Adamantine, SR 19 Stealth, and Str +2, Dex +6, Con --; net+8 to be contrasted to no manipulators, no speech, and a large amount of missing item slots. While sure missing item slots can be overcome by custom items that still requires extra cost for your items compared to a humanoid shaped counterpart and overcoming not being able to speak and having no manipulators similarly requires equipment investment. Specifically at levels below level 8~ these issues are going to be very apparent. In the end the benefits from your hp bonus and DR early game are counteracted by your issues with speaking and manipulating items through level 6. After that there are no longer benefits from your 'HP size bonus' and the DR becomes a stop gap to your lacking hp. Similarly early game until Level 8 your ability scores are a bonus, however, after that they don't give much of a meaningful benefit. Altogether So then it seems to me the Iron Cobra is probably +0 LA, for 2 HD the benefits actually seem to contrast pretty well with its benefits.

[Thurbane]

How are we handling the interaction with awaken construct? I believe with animals we hand waved awaken and ignored it from the analysis because it adds 2 hd and +1d3 Cha which made it rather difficult to give an actual number to. However, in the case of Awaken Construct you simply roll 3d6 for Int, Wis, and Cha directly replacing their previous scores, which makes it pretty straight forward to add into the analysis. So effectively Iron Cobra should have Str +2, Dex +6, Con --; net+8 at creation.

Looking back at the previously rated books that have been evaluated it doesn't appear we ever looked at awaken construct since it wouldn't have made a difference with 8+ construct hd; however, we have used the ooze template in evaluating them.

Interesting issue.

For Awaken Construct to even work for things like the Iron Cobra, the DM has to Rule 0 away the requirement for it to be humanoid-shaped. Same with Incarnate Construct, although that is much less desirable since it removes construct traits and all special qualities.

Soulfused Construct doesn't care about body shape, but further muddies the waters by setting Int to 3 and Con to 10, Dex +2, Cha +4; and again removes construct traits.

It's a hard one: seems a bit unfair to other (non-awakenable) creatures with large Int penalties to just assume Int 10, and waive away the large Cha penalty.

Not sure how to best account for these non-abilities and penalties when assessing this type of creature...

[liquidformat]

Interesting issue.

For Awaken Construct to even work for things like the Iron Cobra, the DM has to Rule 0 away the requirement for it to be humanoid-shaped. Same with Incarnate Construct, although that is much less desirable since it removes construct traits and all special qualities.

Soulfused Construct doesn't care about body shape, but further muddies the waters by setting Int to 3 and Con to 10, Dex +2, Cha +4; and again removes construct traits.

It's a hard one: seems a bit unfair to other (non-awakenable) creatures with large Int penalties to just assume Int 10, and waive away the large Cha penalty.

Not sure how to best account for these non-abilities and penalties when assessing this type of creature...

Hum I hadn't seen Soulfused Construct before, cool find! Looking at the wording of soulfused I am reading that it 'gives' the creature a int and con score rather than 'sets' it there for I think it is alright to read those as we normally would on any other monster entry. The ability scores would then be as follows: Str +2, Dex +8, Con +0, Int -8 (min 3), Cha -6; net -4, also that would dump hide and move silently as class skills in place of Speak Language and change your skill points to HD +3 which removes int from the skill point equation. Essentia Pool and and Soulbound Resistance are ok but nothing too useful. Over all Soulfused Iron Cobra seems like -0 to me.

[Inevitability]

-0: 4 votes
+0: 3 votes
+0*: 1 vote
+1: 1 vote

If we count the +0* vote as a +0 one (and as it didn't propose a trait to remove, I feel like we should), +0 and -0 are tied but the former wins out slightly, mostly thanks to Khaine's vote. This isn't a very easy situation to resolve, but I think +0 shouldn't be too inaccurate.

[Inevitability]

Ironmaw

Anyone remember ropers? Now imagine if they were plants, wouldn't that be crazy?

Ironmaw have 12 RHD, sky-high strength and constitution, okay wisdom and charisma, bad dexterity and terrible intelligence. Their land speed is an impressive 10 ft. so better get one of those flight items or whatever.

The ironmaw chassis is characterized by a number of random defensive abilities: acid resistance, sonic resistance, immunity to cold and electric (trees, as we know, never die from lightning or frost), DR 15/magic and slashing, and SR 30.

Their five natural attacks are four long-range (60 ft. reach) tendrils and a bite. The tendrils attach to foes, automatically dragging them closer every turn, and additionally deal constitution damage and inflict bleeding wounds (with attacks like those, you wonder why ironmaws bother having a bite).

Additionally, adjacent foes can be Engulfed by the ironmaw, which uses up its standard action and causes low amounts of damage per turn. I'm gonna be honest and say that full attacking is probably a better use of your time.

The ironmaw is an interesting crowd controller, but it struggles to have much else going for it. 12 plant RHD are a lot, and advancement will be troublesome. I could maybe see this being +0, but -0 might make more sense.

[Sutr]

+0 to me. Its basically a Hullathoin worse speed, senses, intellegence, and and no minionmancy, no fast healing. In exchange the damage and reach on the tentacles skyrockets, it gets a great constitution, and it has 4 less hit dice.


Why would you give a creature skill points like fey when you give it -6 to intelligence?

[Thurbane]

• Huge plant (extraplanar) with massive reach
• 12 RHD (if we're going by 3.5 type, medium BAB, 1 good save, and 2 skill points/level; not sure if the description overrules the skill points though)
• Speed 10 ft: not good, you'll need some kind of workaround.
• +18 natural AC: pretty good.
• 4 tendrils 2d6 + illness + wounding (with 60 ft reach!) and a bite 1d8.
• Attach: a grapple type attack that leaves tendrils open to being severed.
• Engulf: a swallow whole type attack. Has a relatively low DC reflex save to avoid, and costs a standard action.
• Illness: not a disease attack, despite the name; rather 1d6 Con damage while tendrils maintain a hold. Pretty effective in a grapple build, which you almost certainly will be.
• Wounding: extra 3 hp per round cumulative damage from tendril hits, until the enemy is cured. Decent.
• Acid resistance 10, cold immunity, electricity immunity, sonic resistance 10: good suite of resistances/immunities.
• DR 15 magic and slashing: decent.
• Plant traits: very nice.
• SR 30: pretty solid, although it doesn't scale, of course.
• Str +20, Dex -2, Con + 12, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha +4: net +30; the hit to Int hurts, especially if you're at 2 skill points/RHD, but otherwise solid stats.
• Very small skill list, but decent skills at least; +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot, and +15 racial bonus to Hide in wooded areas. With a -6 to Int, you're unlikely to be much a skillmonkey.

Weird body type, but at least they can definitely speak. Pros: massive reach, great Str bonus, special attacks focused on a grapple/natural attack build, large list of immunities and resistances. Cons: 12RHD, awful move rate, arguably no manipulative digits, and the possibility of having "limbs" hacked off by enemies (unless I'm missing something, nothing is stated about them growing back, so you may need a Regeneration spell or similar). Unless the intent is that severing them just breaks the hold, and doesn't render the tendril useless? The stat block could have been clearer.

I think this has enough good stuff to be a decent LA +0; you'll really want to do something about your move rate though, and have a chat with the DM about how to manage severed tendrils.

On a side note: I think that "skills as a Fey" was the way 3.0 handled all intelligent plants, unless I'm mistaken. In 3.5, obviously the plant type comes with it's own rules about number of skill points.

[Sutr]

[LIST]

On a side note: I think that "skills as a Fey" was the way 3.0 handled all intelligent plants, unless I'm mistaken. In 3.5, obviously the plant type comes with it's own rules about number of skill points.

I must have forgotten/missed that. I only played back in 3.0 and fiend folio was my first monster manual.

[Thurbane]

I must have forgotten/missed that. I only played back in 3.0 and fiend folio was my first monster manual.

Another FF creature gets similar treatment: the Maug entry states "Maugs receive skills as though they were outsiders".

I thought there would be more instances...maybe I'm thinking of other books.

[edit] Just found that 3.0 Treants were handled the same way:

Skills: Treants receive skills as though they were fey*. They have a +16 racial bonus to Hide checks made in forested areas.

[/edit]

[Random Sanity]

Just how prehensile/articulated are those tendrils? And for that matter, how sturdy are they? Can you knot a rope? Lift a friend across a pitfall? Fiddle with switches? These things matter to adventurers.

Combat-wise, you're kind of pigeonholed into a grappler beatstick role; hope your rule-fu is good.

Skills are basically nonexistent; you've got your racial bonuses and maybe one more at a useful level. +15 hide in the woods is either awesome or worthless depending on the campaign.

Overall, +0 assuming positive answers to most of the questions in the first line plus available workarounds to limb loss and that hideous move speed. Without those things, -0.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

This seems like a great creature for a fun trick I figured out awhile back.

Scorpion's Grasp is a feat from Sandstorm that is mostly redundant with Improved Grab... except for the fact that it benefits from how a normal grapple moves you into the target's square instead of pulling you into theirs.

So if a creature is 65ft from the Ironmaw, it can 5ft step towards it, attack the creature once, grapple into the creature's square, and then continue its full attack now 65ft from where it started. If you take the penalty to hold the enemy in just one tentacle and not count as grappled yourself, you retain your full reach and can chain this multiple times in the same turn, collecting enemies as you Spider-Man your way around the battlefield. And you can use it on allies for pure mobility, too, though I don't know how nicely that would play with the Ironmaw's riders on its grapples.

I'll say +0 for the Ironmaw.

[Thurbane]

I would have thought a monster with such unusually large reach would have generated more discussion and votes...

What are peoples thoughts on the tendrils being severed by a sunder attempt? Is it going to require Regeneration or similar?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

What happens if you use a reach weapon with the Opposable property with a natural weapon that already has natural reach? I imagine you'd end up with 3x normal reach (so 90ft for the Ironmaw) due to the normal doubling rules, but maybe you could argue you get double the extended reach (or 120ft for the Ironmaw). Or maybe they don't stack at all, and you're stuck with 60ft reach.

[Efrate]

I am debating between +/- 0. I want to say tendrils grow back in a day, but I have absolutely no RAW support for that it just feels right to me. You are a pretty great controller but those RHD hurt. Also FoM really messes with you but you have enough that you can just keep mooks or lieutenants in line while every one else deals with BBEG and enough defenses to likely survive whatever he throws at you. I am assuming you can use those tendrils to do some kind of manipulation. I guess you go crusader for thicket? Advancement is weird.

I think I can settle on +0. It's really close though.

[Dalmosh]

Scorpion's Grasp is a feat from Sandstorm that is mostly redundant with Improved Grab... except for the fact that it benefits from how a normal grapple moves you into the target's square instead of pulling you into theirs.

There was a really crazy build posted a while back that used the Scout class to trigger skirmish damage on tentacle grapples from an anthropomorphic giant octopus using a similar strategy.

[Thurbane]

Nothing specific to the Ironmaw, but the SRD entries for Giant Octopus, Giant Squid and Kraken all have this entry:

The creature regrows severed limbs in 1d10+10 days.

...would probably be reasonable for a DM to apply this to the Ironmaw as well, if he is looking for a RAW example.

[Blue Jay]

Just how prehensile/articulated are those tendrils? And for that matter, how sturdy are they? Can you knot a rope? Lift a friend across a pitfall? Fiddle with switches? These things matter to adventurers.

Yeah, this is what has me curious. My first thought was that the ironmaw could be a better grappler than the hullathoin, with better BAB, fewer HD and 60-ft reach; but the Attach attack isn't actually a grapple, and I'm not sure you can actually grapple with the tendrils.

You know, there's apparently no penalty at all for having a tendril attached to you. It doesn't even seem like having a tendril attached prevents you from walking away from the Ironmaw: presumably you can't walk farther than 60 feet from it, but it doesn't say you can't walk freely within that reach.

It would be kind of funny to use Attach on your teammate to activate his Skirmish for him. Double kudos if you can get the dragged movement to count as a charge for the guy you're dragging.

Also, I kind of imagined that the ironmaw's tendrils work more like a roper's strands: it can just regrow it instantly.

----

I vote LA +0 for the Ironmaw: good defenses and absurdly long reach with 4 good natural attacks isn't particularly versatile, but I think you could make a living off of it.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

There was a really crazy build posted a while back that used the Scout class to trigger skirmish damage on tentacle grapples from an anthropomorphic giant octopus using a similar strategy.

Heh. Those were actually mine too, the first builds I came up with to exploit the trick. Octopus Man, Grappling Halfling For Justice! and The Kraken, Grappling Halfling For Eeeviil!. They have some very real problems, but wow were they a lot of fun to write. I do wish it had occurred to me to name Octopus Man "Calamari Damacy" instead, since his main shtick is collecting all the enemies on the battlefield into one clumped up space, and that would have been hilarious to anyone that got the reference.

I didn't actually use anthropomorphic giant octo for those two, but with more than six levels to play with that's actually a really good idea.

[Inevitability]

Jackal Lord

I'd make a dog pun, but I can think of jack all.

Anyway, the jackal lord, an 8 RHD monstrous humanoid. Its stats are slightly above the human average, with +8 wisdom the best part. There's some natural armor, a natural bite (reasonably strong), two claws (not so much), and DR 10/magic.

The jackal lord distinguishes itself from other such monsters in two ways: its special abilities, and eight-level cleric casting. Sure, it's locked into the Animal and Evil domains, which don't do much other than give it Shapechange at CL 17, but combined with the chassis it's already preferable to a tier 1 class.

On top of this, it has some neat special abilities. An alternate wolf form is near-useless except for infiltration and stealth (or overland travel/tracking I guess), and so is the ability to summon 8 RHD of dogs per day (not canines, just MM dogs), but at-will Dominate Animal on all canines allows for some interesting minionmancy (see if you can find some dire/legendary wolves!) and Curse of the Jackal is an 1/day Baleful Polymorph that bypasses spell resistance.

Finally, jackal lords have some neat SLAs. At-will Cat's Grace means free dexterity for the whole party, at-will Alter Self is great for the usual reasons, and Detect Magic, Detect Good, and Suggestion all have their moments as well. 3/day Shadow Walk is icing, and is actually pretty good for this level.

With the point of comparison being a cleric, a jackal lord's much better chassis and neat miscellaneous abilities make me think +3 should be fine. They'll still get 9ths, it'll just take a bit longer.

[Efrate]

I can agree with +2. That's a better than cleric chasis with benefits for being locked into domains. If you can swap their powers for devotion feats I think its even better, animal devotion is really good. Lack of turning hurts but you advancement path is clearly cleric so you get it pretty much instantly.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Monstrous humanoid has full base attack, doesn't it? That makes it a neat cleric gish. I suppose LA +2 will do.

[No brains]

I think you're underestimating the value of 8 HD of dogs in terms of spontaneous cuteness. Carpet bomb your enemies with puppies.

[danielxcutter]

+8 to Wisdom is pretty good with cleric casting!

[liquidformat]

I think you're underestimating the value of 8 HD of dogs in terms of spontaneous cuteness. Carpet bomb your enemies with puppies.

It is actually 3/day and the ability has no time limit so you are summoning 24HD of dogs/day with no limit on how many dogs you can have. Still not super useful but it is amusingly epic to have a horde of dogs traveling with you. Also it is more that you get Animal and Evil as bonus domains, but given the fact that you are more than likely to take your first class level as Cleric you will have others too...

All and all I think +2 makes sense here.

[Thurbane]

Jackal Lord (I have a real soft spot for these guys as opponents when I DM):

• Medium Monstrous Humanoid (8 RHD - full BAB, 2 good saves, 2 skill points/level)
• 30 ft speed: OK.
• +4 natural AC: OK-ish.
• Bite 1d10, 2 claws 1d4: quite high bite damage for medium creature.
• Alternate form: Polymorph into a wolf at will - not bad; useful for a 50ft movement rate, if nothing else.
• Curse of the jackal: 1/day save or suck which can only be undone by limited wish, miracle or wish. Decent attack option.
• Dominate animal: very situational, but not bad if you can pull it off.
• SLAs: at will - cat's grace, change self (disguise self?), detect magic, detect good, suggestion; 3/day shadow walk. Decent set of SLAs - mostly low level, but some good ones there.
• Spells: cast as a cleric equal to your RHD. You don't get turn/rebuke (at least until you take a cleric level) and your domain choices are restricted, but still great.
• Summon jackals: 3/day summon 8HD of dogs; not great at your level of play, but can be used to spring traps etc.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• DR 10/magic: very commonly overcome, but still useful against some monstrous/animal foes.
• Str +2, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +2, Wis +8, Cha +6: net +26, no penalties , and +8 to your casting stat!
• Decent racial skill list (mostly social and perception), but notably lacking Concentration for a caster.
• Proficient with medium armor, and MWP with the scimitar.

Humanoid in form, and can speak - no issues with gear or class progression.

I don't think there can be much argument that these guys are better than an 8th level cleric: you miss out on ACFs/sub-levels, domain choice, and tuen rebuke (but you get a turn/rebuke pool with your first level of cleric). You get a bunch of additional attacking, utility and defensive abilities, and great ability mods, including +8 to your casting stat.

How much is all of that worth? The books says +4. I'm happy to still be able to get 9ths by ECL 20, so I'll say LA +3 for now...

[Caelestion]

It's already a lot better than a comparable cleric. It's got to be a +2 LA minimum and I might even be inclined to err on the side of +3.