My Barbarian is KILLING me! Help.

[Sonofaspectre]

If you are reading this and playing in my "7 of 7" campaign, stop reading now. This is a punishable offense by character death.




I have a problem. A player in my party, who is a known powergamer min/maxer is out of control. He is a dwarven barbarian, level 6 now. He rolled his stats, and ... well ... just take a look.

Barbarian (Whirling Dervish Variant) lvl 6
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 5
Feats: Diehard, Pointblank Shot, Extra Rage

You get the gist. To put everything on top of everything, he took Extra Rage this session, because he found out he was going to be in four encounters ... (I'm running the Alabaster Cup and it is the last day of the three day trials, which had four fight-to-the-death style encounters.)

Now that he can rage 5 times a day, it a throwning axe monster that hits anything of appropriate CR on a 4, and I have to constantly audit his sheet for "math mistakes," I don't know how to challenge him in anyway that is fair to the rest of the party:

Dark Human Thief 5
Human Monk 7
Danaan (Homebrew Tree Climbing race) Druid 7
Zai (Homebrew Froggy race) Warlock 7
Kitsune (Homebrew ... Kitsune race) Bard 3/Swashbuckler 4
Qrill (Homebrew Shrimp person race) Aegis (Homebrew Spartanish class) 6

I need help. I've threatened the damned crab, but I don't want the rest of the party to suffer by having two swarms (which would be the appropriate CR for them) when I just have to nerf the one dwarf.

NOTE: I have told the player consistantly that he is outshining the group and unbalancing the game. But because he has a 5 in an ability point, he thinks that it is ok. Even though he is pissed I'm not allowing the variant STR to Intimidate.

[BardicDuelist]

I would just tell it to him straight. If he contiunes to power game, just ask him to find annother group. Either that, or just pit him against ability draining things until his stats are normal. When he tries to heal this, tell him that it is Vile ability drain and the he must quest to find the cure.

(Note: As far as I know, Vile ability drain does not exist, and if it does, I do not recomend using its mechanic, since it would probably be too easy for him to get his scores back).

[Sonofaspectre]

That's a good start. I realized I was having a problem with him when there was no way for my Ninja NPC to deal damage to him. At all. He went invisible, two-weaponed sudden striked some kukris, and nothing happened ...

I'm already penalizing him without magic items, as a note, or at least, no combat items. While the rest of the part is getting ridiculous stuff, best he's gotten is a masterwork great axe.

Thought this would help.

[kpenguin]

Put him in a diplomatic situation. Set it up so that only he has to talk and only he is affected by it. Make him weep as he fails skill check after skill check.

[Shas aia Toriia]

You mean your ninja couldn't hit a flat-footed opponent with 3 attacks on a roll of 20?

[Mojo_Rat]

Wow, If he rolled those stats in front of you just work with it. However to be honest? It does not look to me like the character is that bad aside from phenomenally good stats.

First question though how does he have Die hard without endurance?.

Secondly he does not have either two weapon fighting or quick draw. This means that he is either restricted to throwing one axe a round. Or is suffering from the two weapon fighting penalties.

With the above built if he is holding an Axe in each hand and throwing both at once then he gets the full penalties -6 -6? I dont know what they are off hand but the table is easy to find.

Enforce the rules for drawing new weapons. Without quick draw this means he's using move action's to draw new axes.

Alright now to an appropriate challenge. Barbarian's big thing is the rage and rage runs out. If you really feel like giving him an oponent which is there specifically to challenge him (although i dont know if this is a good method to deal with the problem) Either give him an oponent that can wait out the rage or one that can keep long distances and avoid the thrown weapons (a monk with deflect and snatch feats should fit)

For the record I don't think he has chosen that well for feats. for a thrown axe person TWF QuickDraw Point blank shot and the normal barbarian rage would be far stronger in my opinion.

He would get the two attacks he has now and likely not even have to rage.

[Solo]

A munchkin, eh? Pity he chose a melee class.

An Enchanter could take him out rather quickly, as he will have low will saves.

A Ray of Enfeeblement deals strength penalty at no save, and two Rays of Exhaustion will make him exhausted even if he makes both saves. A level six wizard knock off -(6+1d6+(3) from his strength from ability penalty and exhaustion.

So, I submit that you make him rage with a minion, while a wizard casts

1) Invisibility

2) Fly

3)Mirror Image

4) Blur or Displacement

5) Ray of Enfeeblement

6) Ray of Exhaustion

7) Ray of Exhaustion again, if necessary

8) Any one of the following:

Deep Slumber: Puts 10 HD of creatures to sleep.
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Suggestion: Compels subject to follow stated course of action.

9) ???

10) Profit!

The first few buffs can be pre-cast before the battle starts, btw.

[NecroRebel]

Right off, I can see that the Barbarian is the strongest combatant, but almost certainly the weakest in other areas. So, if you want to make it so that he doesn't constantly outshine everyone else, don't play to his strengths all the time. In other words, make challenges that aren't solvable through violence. Also, make absolutely sure that you penalize him for that 5 Charisma; people should hate him on sight and treat him accordingly.

I'm hoping that you watched him roll those stats. Personally, I wouldn't believe someone who claimed to roll that well.

If he absolutely refuses to back off a bit, then charcter death might be the only option, but first try simply making challenges that play to the other people's strengths instead.

[de-trick]

id use spells that have no save or no attack roll, also a 6 chr could hurt him if you could reduce it by a spell or ability or critical

Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

then coup him

[kpenguin]

You mean your ninja couldn't hit a flat-footed opponent with 3 attacks on a roll of 20?

Well, technically barbs don't loose any AC when flat-footed...

[Shas aia Toriia]

Well, technically barbs don't loose any AC when flat-footed...

Ah. Forgot about that little tid-bit.

[Machete]

Introduce an item that looks to be really GOOD for a certain clas though its true powers can only be used by a certain class THAT ISN'T IN THE PARTY. Don't make it too obvious like a Samurai or Monk thing.

Introduce lots of word heavy role-playing challenges. He is sure to anger someone who will send sexy assassins after him with CHA draining poison in his drink.

"Oh WOW! You sure can drink big guy! Tee hee."

Wham, his face falls to the bar at 0 CHA (that i what happens right?) and she drags him away to saw on his throat for a while to kill him with a slim chance for party intervention so it looks fair but is really stacked againts him.

Remember that really good item from the top. HE will WANT IT and roll up one of those able to use it. Even with his powergamed character, have the item to turn out to have been cursed! (OH NOES :D!) No way to get rid of it and its true effects just happen to de-power his powergamed character enough to make things fair.

HA HA HA HA HA CHAOS!

[sikyon]

Honestly, he doesn't look that amazing. Your party is pretty varied though, I mean monk/warlock arn't exactly the most powrful classes. How is the barbarian outdoing the druid at lv 7?

[Axl_Rose]

I've only played like 3 games in my entire life so forgive me if this sounds stupid and would never work:

Why don't you just make some powerful monster appear out of nowhere that happens to have a particular blood grudge for dwarven barbarians with [insert player specific quality here]

I think that'd be pretty funny *and* effective!

[Maerok]

This gives me the idea for a monster... Can calm emotions defeat rage? Because I'm thinking about a psychedelic monstrous humanoid that exudes an aura of calm emotions and can create mass hallucinations.

[Riffington]

I like the direct route. Tell him his scores are too high for the campaign, and it makes it hard for you to treat him the same as everyone else. Have him choose: roll a new one or lower this one's attributes to match the rest of the party.

It doesn't matter if he rolled the original scores right in front of you with your dice: if it ruins the game's fun, don't allow it.

[Solo]

A munchkin, eh? Pity he chose a melee class.

An Enchanter could take him out rather quickly, as he will have low will saves.

A Ray of Enfeeblement deals strength penalty at no save, and two Rays of Exhaustion will make him exhausted even if he makes both saves. A level six wizard knock off -(6+1d6+(3) from his strength from ability penalty and exhaustion.

So, I submit that you make him rage with a minion, while a wizard casts

1) Invisibility

2) Fly

3)Mirror Image

4) Blur or Displacement

5) Ray of Enfeeblement

6) Ray of Exhaustion

7) Ray of Exhaustion again, if necessary

8) Any one of the following:

Deep Slumber: Puts 10 HD of creatures to sleep.
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Suggestion: Compels subject to follow stated course of action.

9) ???

10) Profit!

The first few buffs can be pre-cast before the battle starts, btw.

To add to my suggestion:

Make the Wizard an Elf :p

[Person_Man]

He doesn't qualify for Diehard without Endurance.

Point Blank Shot is a huge waste of a feat.

Barbarians are one of the weakest base classes, especially at higher levels.

There are a variety of enemies that can deal Cha damage via Poison, magic, psionics, or Maiming Strike.

I really don't see the problem.

[Thomix]

Barbarian (Whirling Dervish Variant) lvl 6
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 5
Feats: Diehard, Pointblank Shot, Extra Rage

You have to take endurance before diehard no??

Edit : Ninja'ed

[sikyon]

A munchkin, eh? Pity he chose a melee class.

Seems to me a real munchkin wouldn't have chosen a melee class.

[Solo]

Seems to me a real munchkin wouldn't have chosen a melee class.

I never said he was a good munchkin.

But trying to powergame while ignoring rules.... sounds like an attempt at munckining to me.

[CthulhuM]

Send him up against a 5th level wilder using wild-surge-augmented ego whip. DC 17 or 18 will save or be dazed for a round and take 2d4 charisma damage, probably knocking him unconscious instantly. Even if he gets lucky and makes the save, he'll take 2 or 3 charisma damage, and another ego whip will almost certainly finish him off.

[BrotherMick]

Wouldn't Calm Emotions work as well? Have them fight another group and have him Calmed out of the fight for a bit. See of that helps get your point across

[...Eh?]

Have a wizard challenge him to a duel of arms, Maximized Touch of Idiocy him (if he points out that it can't reduce stats below 1, point out that you need Endurance to qualify for Diehard) and then have a crowd of people as the big tough Barbarian is coup d'graced by a guy with 3 Strength.

[Bassetking]

Seems to me a real munchkin wouldn't have chosen a melee class.

Sometimes Real Munchkins are Real Stupid.

Also: He's using a thrown weapon. Another count against munchkinism.

Further: It is possible to Munch Melee. Just much, much more difficult.

Finally: Want to have some fun with him? Drop him in that arena 1 on 1 with a nice CR 4 Monster. Try a Dire Boar, a Displacer Beast, or a Pixie.

[Mojo_Rat]

That's a good start. I realized I was having a problem with him when there was no way for my Ninja NPC to deal damage to him. At all. He went invisible, two-weaponed sudden striked some kukris, and nothing happened ...

I'm already penalizing him without magic items, as a note, or at least, no combat items. While the rest of the part is getting ridiculous stuff, best he's gotten is a masterwork great axe.

Thought this would help.

One thing you need to seperate is him being a munchkin and normal aspects of the combat system. the reason the Ninja couldnt affect him is because of Uncanny Dodge. It is not a case of cheating or even being munchkiny.

considering he only has +10 to hit and +4 to damage and is presumably throwing 1d6 weapons I dont see how he could be that powerful compared to your other party members. The stats are strong but to be honest not that strong.

[Kizara]

You don't need to cheese this at all. Nor do you need to make fussy homebrew stuff. Nor do you need to penalize him at all. Give him the same items as everyone else.

He's fighting an arena fight, right?

Next opponent:

Human
Barbarian 1/ftr 2/hexblade 3/frenzied beserker 1 (hexblade and FB are in complete warrior)

Feats: Power attack, cleave, intimidating rage, destructive rage, leap attack, extra rage.

Equipment: +1, keen greataxe. Belt of Giant strength (+2)
(way under wealth for this level)

Stats: 18/12/18/10/12/14 (considerably lower than his, total points wise)

Rage + frenzy + belt= 30 strength

Without power attacking, that's (+15 strength, +7 BAB, +1 magical axe, +2 charging bonus) +25 to hit on a charge. Let's power attack for 5 (giving +20 to hit, meaning he hits AC 30 by rolling a 10), so he does 1d12+38 points of damage opening hit (1 magical, 22 strength, 15 power attack = 38). Next round, he full attacks for 3 hits via frenzy for 1d12+29 damage (assuming 3 powerattack). If he crits its an instant kill.

Saves look like: Fort: +13, Ref: +1, Will: +5 (+2 to all saves vs magic, also Mettle)

That, my friend, is how you build a barbarian. Even without frenzy I bet he would outclass your problem player.

........

Failing that, get a dragon with power attack, leap attack and improved grapple that prebuffs in combat with stuff like displacement, bull's strength, divine favor, haste and true strike. I'd like to see him live through a CR 8 dragon that uses true strike to leap attack for max power attack opening round.


Moral of the story: Don't powergame as a player unless you are ready to accept the consequences. Also, Leap Attack owns. Hard.

[triforcel]

Have him go up against Ghosts with Draining Touch for Cha Drain. Since he doesn't have magic weapons he won't be able to do much about it and in 2-5 attacks he'll be in a coma.

[Kizara]

Sometimes Real Munchkins are Real Stupid.

Also: He's using a thrown weapon. Another count against munchkinism.

Further: It is possible to Munch Melee. Just much, much more difficult.

Finally: Want to have some fun with him? Drop him in that arena 1 on 1 with a nice CR 4 Monster. Try a Dire Boar, a Displacer Beast, or a Pixie.

Also, a couple howlers or a hydra would be nice.

[sikyon]

I never said he was a good munchkin.

But trying to powergame while ignoring rules.... sounds like an attempt at munckining to me.

How is he powergaming? Ignoring rules is cheating, not powergaming. It is not his fault he rolled good stats and didn't take monk. Come on. Thrown weapons? What the heck is that? He's optimized abit, but honestly if he's the strongest member of the group then the group is frankley on the weak side.