My First Evil DM Moment

[Pex]

I think for the first time in all my years of DMing I had an evil DM moment that screwed over the players. I know if I was a player in this scenario I'd be miffed hard.

It was a basic dungeon crawl. The party had cleared out a Necromancer's tower, who was failing to become a lich, and long rested. They then went to clear out the caverns below. They encountered shadows. No problem for them. The cleric destroyed them as expected. The wizard sent his familiar to scout the next cavern opening and spotted ghouls hiding to ambush. Fully warned the party made easy dispatch of the ghouls. The wizard sent his familiar to the next cavern. The last thing the wizard saw before his familiar died as a young wyrmling red dragon swallow it.

As the party prepared to fight the dragon, there were actually two who being alerted by the familiar entered the ghoul cavern and breathed. My dumb luck the dragons rolled a 1 and 2 on initiative so both were dead before round 2 ended. However, both breath weapons did cause lots of damage and the party short rested in the ghoul cavern. I didn't mind that as DM but . . . the intended encounter was to fight the two dragons and an oni in the dragon cavern.

The oni wasn't in that fight and stayed out when he saw the party make mince meat out of them. Since the party rested in the ghoul cavern never entering the dragon cavern, the oni cast invisibility on himself and took all of the dragon hoard to hide in his own small cavern behind an illusionary wall. After the short rest the party entered the dragon cavern and was told it was empty. They thought nothing of it and investigated a small cavern that had fairies in cages.

The party released the fairies who asked them why they didn't have the dragon's hoard since they had to pass the dragons to reach them. They went back into the dragon cavern and they found a gold coin in a crack verifying there was a hoard there. Realizing the hoard was taken when they short rested they out thought themselves thinking the Necromancer wasn't really dead. I was fully expecting them to search the dragon cavern where they'd discover the illusionary wall and encounter the oni. They never searched. They decided to all go back up into the tower to verify the Necromancer was dead. The oni took the opportunity to escape with the hoard. He went to the shadow cavern where there was a secret door the party hadn't bothered to search either, killed the otyugh, and took the boat at the underground lake that leads to the open sea outside, taking all the gold with him.

Obviously the players were bummed they lost the treasure, but they weren't upset with me out of character about it. They accept the consequences. Everything is all hunky dory. I'm just amazed with myself that I had a true conniving DM moment. I "got" the Players. Me. Pex.

[Telok]

Sounds perfectly normal d20 session to me. The players acted like it was a kill-loot-repeat video game dungeon while you played the oni like an actual thinking character.

[oxybe]

That's not really a gotcha moment.

a bummer, for sure, but understandable one. Smart people(like oni) don't stick around when armoured, bloodthirsty vagrants begin ransacking the place after casually roflstomping a pair of dragons in under a half minute.

And if you're getting away, why not do so with the loot? y'all will need some cash to get setup at the new place.

I'd say to give them a smaller reward by a local lord for killing the dragons as thanks, just so they don't go completely empty handed, but they'll always remember the hoard that got away.

[denthor]

Don't know 5e but moving treasures makes noise, could they have heard it? Random things fall. Illusion spell last how long concentration plus. How long can you concentrate before your mentality tired?

[JNAProductions]

I'll echo Denthor by saying that SOME should've been left (how small was the hoard?) but the broad strokes seem okay. I don't think you were being malicious, you were just playing the world.

With that being said! If the players are not having fun or are actively discouraged by that, talk to them, possibly explain what happened, and figure out what's the best way to proceed moving forward. Even if you were 100% reasonable, no questions asked (which, again, I think there were some questionable choices there, but nothing awful) if they aren't having fun with it... That's a problem.

Best of luck to you!

[Ken Murikumo]

The only thing i would have done differently was give them a chance to stumble upon the illusory wall or give hints about where it could be (like a trail of valuables leading near it).

But whats done is done. Now you could make a sub-plot about it. Like the players hearing about some creature rising to power with staggering amounts of wealth. Have the party get involved and eventually they come full circle and learn what happened.

"Hey remember that dragon hoard that went missing...?"

[MrStabby]

It seems legitimate. The one thing I might be miffed at as a player if if there was no reason to suspect an On I was there in the dungeon. No clues and no reason to suspect the dragons were working with anyone else. Missed clues, even through failed skill checks make such things easier to swallow.

As a DM I don't like to take treasure from the PCs too often, but it motivates them through encounters that are less than deadly. I think the most controversial was when a demo was wielding a magic sword they were tasked to recover. The wizard (5edition d&d) banished the demon whilst the party mopped up his henchmen... then the party sat there waiting for the demon to come back with their magic loot. He never did.

[Pex]

That's not really a gotcha moment.

a bummer, for sure, but understandable one. Smart people(like oni) don't stick around when armoured, bloodthirsty vagrants begin ransacking the place after casually roflstomping a pair of dragons in under a half minute.

And if you're getting away, why not do so with the loot? y'all will need some cash to get setup at the new place.

I'd say to give them a smaller reward by a local lord for killing the dragons as thanks, just so they don't go completely empty handed, but they'll always remember the hoard that got away.

They got treasure in the Necromancer's tower and are being paid for getting hired to clear out the tower. This was a cavern below the tower. They only lost the dragons' treasure. It's not about the treasure but in my view I tricked the players. It wasn't the intent. They could have found the oni easily enough, but they chose to leave the dungeon on their own after picking the wrong room to short rest. It just fell into place.

Don't know 5e but moving treasures makes noise, could they have heard it? Random things fall. Illusion spell last how long concentration plus. How long can you concentrate before your mentality tired?

I'll echo Denthor by saying that SOME should've been left (how small was the hoard?) but the broad strokes seem okay. I don't think you were being malicious, you were just playing the world.

With that being said! If the players are not having fun or are actively discouraged by that, talk to them, possibly explain what happened, and figure out what's the best way to proceed moving forward. Even if you were 100% reasonable, no questions asked (which, again, I think there were some questionable choices there, but nothing awful) if they aren't having fun with it... That's a problem.

Best of luck to you!

The only thing i would have done differently was give them a chance to stumble upon the illusory wall or give hints about where it could be (like a trail of valuables leading near it).

But whats done is done. Now you could make a sub-plot about it. Like the players hearing about some creature rising to power with staggering amounts of wealth. Have the party get involved and eventually they come full circle and learn what happened.

"Hey remember that dragon hoard that went missing...?"

I was surprised they never thought to look for the dragons' treasure. They fought dragons. Of course they have a hoard, but they chose to rest immediately after the combat. When told the dragons' room was empty they just moved on. I used the fairies to remind them dragons have hoards, and the one gold piece was the clue it was taken when they rested. They figured that part out, but paranoia took hold thinking the BBEG came back and left the dungeon. They never searched. If they did the DC to find the illusionary wall was DC Yes.

It seems legitimate. The one thing I might be miffed at as a player if if there was no reason to suspect an On I was there in the dungeon. No clues and no reason to suspect the dragons were working with anyone else. Missed clues, even through failed skill checks make such things easier to swallow.

As a DM I don't like to take treasure from the PCs too often, but it motivates them through encounters that are less than deadly. I think the most controversial was when a demo was wielding a magic sword they were tasked to recover. The wizard (5edition d&d) banished the demon whilst the party mopped up his henchmen... then the party sat there waiting for the demon to come back with their magic loot. He never did.

They had no reason to, but the oni was easy to find if only they bothered to search. Didn't look for secret doors. Didn't look for tracks. Didn't look for anything. They just thought the dead BBEG came back and took it so wanted to be sure he was really dead. He was, but they left the dungeon. The oni took the opportunity.

Again the players aren't upset. It's just in my games I don't trick players. Certainly they can lose a fight or fail a task, but to pull one over on them I don't do. Partly because I don't like DMs doing it to me as a player and partly I don't have the mindset to create a Xanatos Gambit. Everything fell into place, and I'm flabbergasted.

[King of Nowhere]

that's not evil dm. that's stuff that happens. i'm sure your players would not want you to drop the treasure in their lap after they failed to find it through the many possible ways. without the chance of failure, there is no achievement in success

[JBPuffin]

Good work. We’ll be sending you your badge over the weekend. Welcome to the club!

[AntiAuthority]

I think for the first time in all my years of DMing I had an evil DM moment that screwed over the players. I know if I was a player in this scenario I'd be miffed hard.

It was a basic dungeon crawl. The party had cleared out a Necromancer's tower, who was failing to become a lich, and long rested. They then went to clear out the caverns below. They encountered shadows. No problem for them. The cleric destroyed them as expected. The wizard sent his familiar to scout the next cavern opening and spotted ghouls hiding to ambush. Fully warned the party made easy dispatch of the ghouls. The wizard sent his familiar to the next cavern. The last thing the wizard saw before his familiar died as a young wyrmling red dragon swallow it.

As the party prepared to fight the dragon, there were actually two who being alerted by the familiar entered the ghoul cavern and breathed. My dumb luck the dragons rolled a 1 and 2 on initiative so both were dead before round 2 ended. However, both breath weapons did cause lots of damage and the party short rested in the ghoul cavern. I didn't mind that as DM but . . . the intended encounter was to fight the two dragons and an oni in the dragon cavern.

The oni wasn't in that fight and stayed out when he saw the party make mince meat out of them. Since the party rested in the ghoul cavern never entering the dragon cavern, the oni cast invisibility on himself and took all of the dragon hoard to hide in his own small cavern behind an illusionary wall. After the short rest the party entered the dragon cavern and was told it was empty. They thought nothing of it and investigated a small cavern that had fairies in cages.

The party released the fairies who asked them why they didn't have the dragon's hoard since they had to pass the dragons to reach them. They went back into the dragon cavern and they found a gold coin in a crack verifying there was a hoard there. Realizing the hoard was taken when they short rested they out thought themselves thinking the Necromancer wasn't really dead. I was fully expecting them to search the dragon cavern where they'd discover the illusionary wall and encounter the oni. They never searched. They decided to all go back up into the tower to verify the Necromancer was dead. The oni took the opportunity to escape with the hoard. He went to the shadow cavern where there was a secret door the party hadn't bothered to search either, killed the otyugh, and took the boat at the underground lake that leads to the open sea outside, taking all the gold with him.

Obviously the players were bummed they lost the treasure, but they weren't upset with me out of character about it. They accept the consequences. Everything is all hunky dory. I'm just amazed with myself that I had a true conniving DM moment. I "got" the Players. Me. Pex.

Not really Evil DM, you seem pretty reasonable in this situation.

They probably should have inspected the room they found the gold in sooner, as dragons are capable of casting spells. And there's a Necromancer involved, and they can cast spells, so possibly illusions too... If anything, your players should have been more suspicious, or do they not encounter illusions too often in your game? Even without the illusion angle, did they bother to look for tracks or signs of anyone passing through the area when they found the single gold coin?

Only issue I'd have is if the players had no possible way of finding the treasure, but you gave them that chance (sounds like at least two chances)... And the Oni probably had no reason to die for a pair of dragons it likely had no attachment to when it could take the money and run, so smart Oni. The lack of treasure sucks, and they might feel they went through all that for nothing... Ok, I'm a little conflicted now, as I would be severely annoyed as a player if this was me, but also annoyed at myself for not examining the room closer.

[Coventry]

I'm just amazed with myself that I had a true conniving DM moment. I "got" the Players. Me. Pex.

I sense a "recurring villain" has just been created. This oni has money, now ... what will it do with it? Hire a ship and become the new pirate king?

Or, will it try to hire a ship with the intent of becoming a pirate king, only to be swindled out of all that money, and thus end up trying to hire the PCs to help it get the money back? "Of course I want to hire you! I saw how easily you took down those two dragons!" ... "uh, no, I was not there, not at all!"

[LordCdrMilitant]

I don't know if that's an evil GM moment, more a Reality Ensues moment.


I have those pretty often. Most recently, the party had tracked down some cultists to an abandoned refinery they were meeting at. The party decided to show up with a Crassus super heavy assault transport, and drive through the refinery in it looking for the building the cultists were operating out of.

Unfortunately, the cultists noticed immediately when the tank showed up, and set fire to their documents and fled while the party was trying to maneuver their tank around and through the rusted remains of heavy industry [and eventually getting immobilized]. By the time the party had made their way to the building the cultists had been meeting in, all that was left was a couple of 55 gallon drums of burning oil and paper.

The party, was of course, understanding of the source of their failure, and then spent an hour arguing about who thought it was a good idea to bring a super-heavy tank to a mission that required at least the element of surprise.

[Klaus Teufel]

I sense a "recurring villain" has just been created. This oni has money, now ... what will it do with it? Hire a ship and become the new pirate king?

Or, will it try to hire a ship with the intent of becoming a pirate king, only to be swindled out of all that money, and thus end up trying to hire the PCs to help it get the money back? "Of course I want to hire you! I saw how easily you took down those two dragons!" ... "uh, no, I was not there, not at all!"

I like this idea, or something very like it. Where are the PC's now? Perhaps a fairy they let out explored the caverns and found the secret door, dead otyugh, and bits of scattered treasure, and thought the PC's might want to know about it? Now the PC's have a quest of their own making: find who stole the treasure!

I find players will bite on a quest of their own a lot harder than one given by the local quest-giver.

[Willie the Duck]

I think for the first time in all my years of DMing I had an evil DM moment that screwed over the players.

If you've been DMing the whole time you've been gaming, then this isn't the first. Just the first you've noticed.

in my view I tricked the players.

Why?
If you are playing a 'real' world, that reacts to the events and situations that the players foster, than you tricking them should only happen when things don't happen (or are not apparent*) that should happen, or do happen that wouldn't. If everything that occurred in the scenario was a logical consequence of what the PCs did, that isn't you tricking them. The monsters/opponents might have tricked the PCs, but that's their role as adversaries.
*And here does come a tricky part -- neither omitting to mention the things that the players would need to connect the dots, nor specifically and only ever mentioning the loose stones when they are the things you need to investigate to find the secret doors, or similar.

I think it comes down to 1) did the monsters act reasonably, given the stimuli presented (by the PC's actions), and 2) were the PCs given the information necessary to (reasonably) discover the hidden things. To that, you say (changed to list format):

• They could have found the oni easily enough, but they chose to leave the dungeon on their own after picking the wrong room to short rest. It just fell into place.
• I was surprised they never thought to look for the dragons' treasure.
• When told the dragons' room was empty they just moved on. I used the fairies to remind them dragons have hoards, and the one gold piece was the clue it was taken when they rested.
• they figured that part out, but paranoia took hold thinking the BBEG came back and left the dungeon.
• They never searched. If they did the DC to find the illusionary wall was DC Yes.
• Didn't look for secret doors.
• Didn't look for tracks.
• They decided to all go back up into the tower to verify the Necromancer was dead.

Honestly, this sounds completely above board. As you said, they decided to go back to the tower, and the oni took the opportunity (presented). Sometimes you leave a bunch of clues and expect that you know what the PCs will do with the information, and they do something different. Unless you and they want a game where they are lead around by the nose, that's a consequence of giving them autonomy.

[Spriteless]

Maybe not 'evil,' but you did take a step away from 'Monty Haul' and into verisimilitude. I'm glad your players appreciate it!

[FabulousFizban]

whatever. call me when you tpk. That is when a DM earns his/her wings.

[Pugwampy]

Dm,s should have some fun too . Being a bit naughty to players is fun .