Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

[Gez]

Annie SAYS that Tony's mental issues don't excuse his behavior and only explains it but the story and Annie ARE excusing his behavior.

But that's the point. Tony's mental issues don't excuse his behavior, Annie admits that. She choose to forgive him anyway for her own reasons.

[Ellen]

On the one hand, cool that Annie is asserting herself and taking a firm line with Loup. That takes guts.

On the other hand, Annie does have a history of sometimes letting anger and aggression get the better of her. Right now, that could be suicidal.

[Ionathus]

He didn't really give the two-Annies arc closure, he just ended it out of nowhere.

Bold of you to assume that the Two Annies events will never be coming back. Remember how neither of those Annies were the "original" one from this timeline? And the whole thing was done by Loup? My money's on there being more to this story.

My perspective on the whole Tony-issue is that a lot of readers are - mistakenly - seeing Tony as the topic of interest, rather than Annie.

<snip>

It's like we have a chapter about Annie buying an umbrella against the rain. Such a chapter would not be "the narrative defending the rain". The narrative doesn't give an opinion about the rain. It just gives us a story about how the actually relevant character deals with the rain.

So the story is not about Tony. Never has been.
It's not validating, defending or redeeming Tony - and it won't be criticising him either. It will only be validating, defending or criticising how Annie deals with him.

When Annie stubbornly kept defending him during his absence, the narrative criticised this.
When Annie literally cut off her emotional spirit part thingy so she didn't have to deal with her feelings about him, the narrative criticised this.
And when Annie found a method to deal with her father in a way that works for her, the narrative defended this.

So when people say this chapter excuses Tony's behaviour, I think they are missing the point - it justifies Annie's behaviour, and the only justification it gives is "it works for her".

And honestly, that's the only justification it needs to give. It works for her.
It might not work for other people (for plenty of children with parents like Tony, staying the heck away from him would be the best solution), but it does work for her.

I'm right there with you. All the accusations that "Tom is trying too hard to make us like Tony" fall flat for me, because it's very clearly not about Tony. Sure, it gives us some insights into his psyche, but what's important is how Annie uses that information to re-evaluate her father's behavior and decide how to respond. I liked Annie's talk at the end of that chapter -- it was good to get a glimpse into her opinion on the subject.

On the Tony thing...all I can say is I disagree with everyone saying the story excuses his actions. It shows a broken man who very nearly destroyed his relationship with his daughter because he can't stop grieving for his dead wife and blames said daughter on a deep level even he doesn't truly understand. I likw him as a character who's done terrible things for complex reasons while not being a fundamentally bad person. He's a far more interesting character than someone like Loup or even Coyote.

Yep, exactly. Keep in mind this is the same comic that finished a story with "yeah, Antimony, your mom cheated on Eglamore with your dad and that's how they got together. It was wrong. We decided to stay friends with them anyway. I don't have a good excuse for you. Sometimes people do the wrong things."

On the one hand, cool that Annie is asserting herself and taking a firm line with Loup. That takes guts.

On the other hand, Annie does have a history of sometimes letting anger and aggression get the better of her. Right now, that could be suicidal.

I may not particularly like Loup as a character, but the comic has done a very good job convincing me that he's extremely unstable and prone to lashing out. Even moreso than Coyote. I really don't like where this is going, for everyone's sake.

[Squire Doodad]

Loup is very much being "feral creature" today, much more than Ysengrin or Coyote ever were. He's not just attacking Parley, he's baring his fangs and charging.

Bold of you to assume that the Two Annies events will never be coming back. Remember how neither of those Annies were the "original" one from this timeline? And the whole thing was done by Loup? My money's on there being more to this story.

The issue is more that the "recombination" of the Annies happened like flipping a switch, with next to no foreshadowing or context. All that happened was Rey was basically talking to people in the Zimmyspace, and then the Annies were fighting aaaaaaand...they're the same again? Surely there should have been a few pages of "oh hey they're merging". I assume the suddenness was the point, but it was a poorly executed point.

[Max_Killjoy]

Bold of you to .

Well that kinda kills any chance of an actual conversation.

Oh well.

[Ellen]

Ysengrim had some triggers but they were part of a complex personality. He was also capable of self-awareness, although Coyote made sure that self-awareness didn't impact his behavior.

I don't know if I should say Coyote has a better side. He's a mythological trickster and is capable of waiting centuries or longer to complete a plan. He's aware of a much bigger picture than Loup is. It's possible he likes individuals to be truly kind or benevolent.

It's possiblehe feels some responsibility towards the people of the forest. It's also possible he's just keeping them around till it's funny enough to kill them. Or both. I wouldn't put it past him to have kinder feelings mixed in with sadistic humor.

But, Coyote ultimately feels less dangerous than Loup. He has rules or a sort and doesn't seem to want to destroy too many innocent bystanders. It may be that he needs them to stay alive to be an appreciative audience. But, I think it's also that Coyote is a god (for lack of a better way to put it). He is chaos but he is a kind of chaos that is part of the cycle of creation and destruction. Sometimes, when people talk about mythology that way, they emphasize the overall positive and predictable elements of that cycle. Coyote isn't that. But, he still fits into it.

Loup is violent and psycho and doesn't have any place on the creation side of the cycle.

He was also created and unleashed by Coyote, which makes Coyote ultimately responsible for him. He may serve some purpose. It may even be a purpose that readers like us could recognize as necessary. Although, this may mean "necessary" the same way sharks are a necessary part of the ecosystem.

[halfeye]

Although, this may mean "necessary" the same way sharks are a necessary part of the ecosystem.

There are niches that sharks fill that are a necessary part of various ecosystems, something will fill and fit those niches so long as they exist, which is probably what you are thinking of, but sharks themselves aren't necessary at all.

[Ionathus]

The issue is more that the "recombination" of the Annies happened like flipping a switch, with next to no foreshadowing or context. All that happened was Rey was basically talking to people in the Zimmyspace, and then the Annies were fighting aaaaaaand...they're the same again? Surely there should have been a few pages of "oh hey they're merging". I assume the suddenness was the point, but it was a poorly executed point.

I disagree; I thought it worked quite well. Not every mystical event needs to blow the special effects budget, especially in a webcomic that's as esoteric as this one. IMO, it fits the comic's vibe quite well for a status quo to change suddenly without a lot of fanfare.

Well that kinda kills any chance of an actual conversation.

Oh well.

Was it the turn of phrase? I've always used it (and seen others on this forum use it) as a rhetorical flourish, nothing more. If I came across as actually dismissive or offensive, I apologize.

[Vinyadan]

About the Annie Reunited, I found her speech to Jones odd. Not because of the content, but because of Annie, who is normally always holding something back. To me, it felt like she always was in opposition to her environment and people around her. Sad, spoiled, unregulated, aloof, playing with fire... And then she emerges mature enough to talk about her feelings and intentions.

It's possible that she's simply grown. It's possible that she feels good talking to Jones about feelings, both because Jones is a very non-overbearing mother figure and because she doesn't believe that Jones doesn't have feelings, so it's like telling her, "see? those!".

However, compared to the usual Annie, I couldn't help but think that the one talking was neither Forest nor Court Annie, but a Doppelgänger having fun with fake sincerity.

[Ellen]

There are niches that sharks fill that are a necessary part of various ecosystems, something will fill and fit those niches so long as they exist, which is probably what you are thinking of, but sharks themselves aren't necessary at all.

Yeah, it's the way things that can cause painful death may still be a necessary part of the world, much as I would prefer the sunshine and roses world where sharks act like vegetarian puppy dogs.

[wingnutx]

However, compared to the usual Annie, I couldn't help but think that the one talking was neither Forest nor Court Annie, but a Doppelgänger having fun with fake sincerity.

That's how she struck me at first.

[halfeye]

Yeah, it's the way things that can cause painful death may still be a necessary part of the world, much as I would prefer the sunshine and roses world where sharks act like vegetarian puppy dogs.

That's not another world, that's another universe, I'd like it too, but it's a long, long way away.

Wahoo!

Spoiler

Show

Coyote is back.

[Max_Killjoy]

The Shadow Men have some sort of plan.

This could go all sorts of ways.

Almost none of them good.

[Ellen]

On the one hand, I can see things going the Court's way. The Cournt and the Forest have been balanced not just in power but on the good/evil scale. After Loup trashing the Court and being violently psychotic, this may be where the balance swings back in their direction.

On the other hand, we may never find out what Coyote had planned if things go their way.

Though, maybe Coyote's plan is for things to go the Court's way for a bit. Loup is the type not to care if he goes down in flames while taking out his enemies.

[Max_Killjoy]

This might be why the Court was doing all that work on manipulating aether.

[PhantomFox]

Pokeball, go!

[Lizard Lord]

On the one hand, I can see things going the Court's way. The Cournt and the Forest have been balanced not just in power but on the good/evil scale. After Loup trashing the Court and being violently psychotic, this may be where the balance swings back in their direction.

On the other hand, we may never find out what Coyote had planned if things go their way.

Though, maybe Coyote's plan is for things to go the Court's way for a bit. Loup is the type not to care if he goes down in flames while taking out his enemies.

I am pretty sure Coyote's plan was just to die so that he could experience it and then come back so that he could, y'know, not be dead.

I haven't seen anything that contradicts the idea that Coyote's schemes are just for his own whimsy and what he finds interesting. Plus Coyote said that dieing to find out what would happen was his intention and Coyote doesn't actually lie.

[Ionathus]

I am positive this statement is premature and presumptive, but...does anyone feel like we might be approaching the endgame?

I mean, ever since Jeanne was released, the Omega Device has felt like the last big mystery. Maybe you could include The Seed Bismuth as well. But all of this, and the last few arcs in particular...they've kind of had the vibe of tying up loose ends if you ask me.

[Typewriter]

I am positive this statement is premature and presumptive, but...does anyone feel like we might be approaching the endgame?

I mean, ever since Jeanne was released, the Omega Device has felt like the last big mystery. Maybe you could include The Seed Bismuth as well. But all of this, and the last few arcs in particular...they've kind of had the vibe of tying up loose ends if you ask me.

I absolutely, 100% understand where you're coming from with this sentiment but I'm not sure if I completely agree. Something that continually throws me when I look through the chapter list is the scale of certain bits of the story. Jeanne has been gone for 20 chapters now. She's been gone for 25% of the current story. So it feels bit and momentous that that got resolved but, on the flip side, her removal didn't really change things. Sure, there were some side effects of her leaving - character development and stuff - but for the most part the comic just sort of... kept going. Similarly the 'dual Annies' thing went on for 10 chapters - 69-79 - and then just sort of... resolved itself. A completely new story element was thrown in, caused havoc, got resolved then got removed just as a sort of side content.

So a lot of the big stuff is moving and happening but, on the flip side, the story is still going along and it's still introducing new stories to resolve and explore.

I feel like it's sort of similar to Harry Potter. Each book/year at the school addresses the main story beats but the focus is on all of the stuff that happens parallel to that. Big story arcs are introduced in early years and resolved in later ones. It's an avenue to keep the story progressing while still being able to spend a lot of time focusing on the character arcs and set pieces. My theory for how the rest of this comic is going to go is something along the lines of:

Coyote gets 'captured'

2 chapters dealing directly with the aftermath

5-10 chapters of side content while coyote is captured (and the forest oppressed?)

2(ish) chapters of coyote getting freed/rescued and the aftermath

5-10 chapters of side content while tensions rise in the court

2(ish) chapters resolving the conflict between between the court and the forest (Seed Bismuth?)

5-10 chapters of peaceful living but with issues arising between the communities. Annie sides with the Forest, Kat sides with the Court.

Final Chapters dedicated to finally resolving the 'Kat is a god' story and exploring the final stages of the relationship between Kat and Annie. In anything besides Gunnerkrigg I would feel like these characters are destined to oppose each other but with them being written the way they are and being such good friends I feel like it's more likely that they'll work together to resolve whatever conflict comes about.

Obviously this is all a total ass pull - it's goes over the things I think are likely to be major story beats but also covers how those bits could be spread out. I could be wrong in so many different ways but I think that there's still a lot left to explore. I would guess that we're between 66-75% of the way through the story.

[Max_Killjoy]

I thought freeing Jeanne was what broke the barrier between the forest and the court.

[wingnutx]

I thought freeing Jeanne was what broke the barrier between the forest and the court.

You are correct.

[Rodin]

I thought freeing Jeanne was what broke the barrier between the forest and the court.

Kinda. What separates the two is the Annan Waters, carved out of the earth by Coyote himself. That divide existed for some time without any interference. However, there was still traffic across it for those determined enough to do so.

The Court didn't like that, so they trapped Jeanne and her elven lover as rage ghosts to kill anyone who tried to cross. She wasn't a barrier so much as a guardian.

When Annie freed Jeanne, she removed the guardian. Coyote sensed this, and that's when he hatched his plan. He'd been manipulating Ysengrin for years to enhance his rage with the humans, even devouring certain memories to form Ysengrin's personality in a very particular way. He moves on to the next step and gives Parley and Smitty the lake water and goose bone.

Coyote then gives Ysengrin his power, and Ysengrin does the predictable - he attacks the Court. His first act is to destroy the human made bridge and cause it's rubble to form a natural bridge across the Waters. That's when the barrier well and truly breaks.

Everything we've seen with the Two Annies, Loup, the incursions into the Court - all of it can be tied back to freeing Jeanne.

[Murk]

When Annie freed Jeanne, she removed the guardian. Coyote sensed this, and that's when he hatched his plan.

That's how it reads, but that would also imply that Coyote/Loups plan wouldn't work with Jeanne still there. Which I have a hard time imagining.
Breaking the bridge and damming the canyon could have been done with Jeanne still there. Coyote (and other forest creatures) were always able to pass the bridge: Jeanne was only an issue if they tried to cross the water directly.
In his first attack, Loup flew high over the canyon. I doubt Jeanne would have done anything about that.

Even if he did somehow interfere (maybe by damming the flow Jeanne would have been able to climb out of the canyon, rampaging through the court and the forest?)... Would that mean Cotoye's/Loups powers are insufficient to deal with her?

[Ionathus]

That's how it reads, but that would also imply that Coyote/Loups plan wouldn't work with Jeanne still there. Which I have a hard time imagining.
Breaking the bridge and damming the canyon could have been done with Jeanne still there. Coyote (and other forest creatures) were always able to pass the bridge: Jeanne was only an issue if they tried to cross the water directly.
In his first attack, Loup flew high over the canyon. I doubt Jeanne would have done anything about that.

Even if he did somehow interfere (maybe by damming the flow Jeanne would have been able to climb out of the canyon, rampaging through the court and the forest?)... Would that mean Cotoye's/Loups powers are insufficient to deal with her?

That's an awful big assumption to make, and it's not really based on anything but your own speculation. The comic directly refutes it.

Here's the stinger of The Other Shore, in the immediate aftermath of releasing Jeanne. Coyote is very clearly excited about the change.

Here's the beginning of Memories of the Worthless, right before Coyote initiates his bonkers plan to give Ysengrin his powers. Notice Coyote explicitly says "you've always known the river was impossible to cross" and then follows it up with "what would you do if you knew the ghost of the Annan waters was gone?" The comic then spends a great deal of time and destroyed setpieces showing exactly what Ysengrin would do if he knew the ghost was gone.

Jeanne was very clearly blocking Ysengrin and probably Coyote from interfering in the court. You assume this restriction doesn't apply to flying over it, or closing the river, or damming it. But that assumption isn't backed up by anything. The comic is very clear that Jeanne was the thing holding them back. Just because we only see Jeanne preventing one type of interference doesn't mean she was incapable of preventing other, related types of interference.

It's incredibly clear that Jeanne was the one preventing all this.

[Typewriter]

Jeanne was preventing things from occurring but her as a character and plot point are complete - what has happened since is a consequence of her absence but her as a character/plot point is completely irrelevant to what is occurring.

[Ionathus]

Jeanne was preventing things from occurring but her as a character and plot point are complete - what has happened since is a consequence of her absence but her as a character/plot point is completely irrelevant to what is occurring.

Absolutely. I'm just disputing the argument that Jeanne's release didn't cause the last 20 chapters of plot development. Which it totally did, in my opinion.

[Max_Killjoy]

Jeanne was preventing things from occurring but her as a character and plot point are complete - what has happened since is a consequence of her absence but her as a character/plot point is completely irrelevant to what is occurring.

Whether it's relevant to her arc... is irrelevant to the question at hand.

[Rodin]

Whether it's relevant to her arc... is irrelevant to the question at hand.

Yes, the original argument was "her removal didn't really change things". I disagree heavily with that statement, based on what Ionathus said.

Everything that has happened since could not have happened without Jeanne's removal. Loup, the two Annies, the quests to retrieve the goose bone and the lake water (given by Coyote as part of his plan for Loup). Heck, even the contract chapter requires Kat to have the arrow.

We've had 15 chapters straight of consequences for the removal of Jeanne. Getting rid of her destroyed the status quo, and inspired Coyote to do his current plan. Whether Loup would win vs. Jeanne is irrelevant - what matters is that Coyote thought her removal was an important part of his plan to manipulate Ysengrin. Everything he does after Jeanne's removal is towards that goal, and now we're seeing the endgame of that plan.

[wingnutx]

Annie would not be a psychopomp if they hadn't taken on Jeanne.

[sihnfahl]

I thought freeing Jeanne was what broke the barrier between the forest and the court.

More like a moat and drawbridge.

Jeanne's Ghost forced anything from the forest to enter the court via the bridge. They could not cross the Annan because Jeanne was the guard keeping them from crossing there. And if the Forest started to act up? Blow the bridge, no way for anything from the forest to enter the Court.

Presumably, Loup would not have been able to seal the river the way he did should Jeanne be present.