Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

[Ibrinar]

I wondered at the start whether it would look for a while like they had outmaneuvered him but seems he just no sells it. Although he seems to be playing with time so he might still go for pretending.

Anyway I kinda stopped enjoying reading it during the last arc. But coyote remains enjoyable to watch despite being kinda horrible.^^

[Murk]

Absolutely. I'm just disputing the argument that Jeanne's release didn't cause the last 20 chapters of plot development. Which it totally did, in my opinion.

Oh no, I completely agree with that.

But like I said, that also means that Jeanne could somehow have prevented Coyote from doing any of this.

I didn't say Jeanne couldn't have prevented a giant earthquake damming the river, or that she couldn't have prevented Loup flying high over the court and doing a city-levelling anime-punch, or that she couldn't have prevented building-sized roots shooting through the cliff walls. Indeed, the comic clearly implies that she could have prevented that.
I was just wondering how.

[137beth]

Oh my Coyote,

Spoiler

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Is this finally an answer to what "man's attempt to become god" is? The Court is an attempt to steal Coyote's power?

[Vinyadan]

If Jeanne was part of the Court, and Coyote had promised not to attack the Court, then he couldn't (wouldn't?) do anything about Jeanne.

The question here is, why did Coyote believe that Loup shouldn't handle Jeanne? I am certain that Loup would have been stronger than her. Why did Coyote wait until the kids had released her?

My answer is that Coyote wanted other events connected to Jeanne's liberation to happen. Kate in particular was put in motion, and new knowledge, questions, and access to the arrow resulted in her creation of a time loop that caused Annie's survival and the emergence of a new kind of robots. Renard is now a familiar, instead of a toy, and Coyote and Loup both have a plan for him (which may boil down to "I want my power back".)

There's probably more coming, and more that has already happened but hasn't been yet shown in its ramifications.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

IIRC, Word of God was that Jeanne at full power (fully enraged) could fight Coyote to a standstill. I think I saw that on the TV Tropes page?

Even if Loup is stronger still, that would seriously mess with his plans.

[halfeye]

Even if Loup is stronger still, that would seriously mess with his plans.

Less subtle isn't necessarily stronger.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Less subtle isn't necessarily stronger.

Well, he's also got Ysengrin's powers, so theoretically he should be at least a little stronger. He's got less experience (and less composure), though, hence the "if".

[Kornaki]

So this whole thing was orchestrated so coyote could make the court look bad to Annie?

[wingnutx]

Coyote did it for the lulz.

[Ellen]

Something I noticed about the guy Renard took the body of.

We don't know anything about him, even his name. At first, that wasn't too surprising. But, it's been a while and we've had background stories on all sorts of things that seem a lot less important.

So, who was this guy? Renard didn't pick him because he was close to Surma. That would have been Tony or James. If it was all a setup, did the Court try to get Renard to use some of Coyote's power? If so, what was this guy's role in it? I'm pretty sure he had one.

[Gez]

Something I noticed about the guy Renard took the body of.

We don't know anything about him, even his name. At first, that wasn't too surprising. But, it's been a while and we've had background stories on all sorts of things that seem a lot less important.

So, who was this guy? Renard didn't pick him because he was close to Surma. That would have been Tony or James. If it was all a setup, did the Court try to get Renard to use some of Coyote's power? If so, what was this guy's role in it? I'm pretty sure he had one.

We do know his name: Daniel R. Schiff, or Danny to his friends. As for his job, well, we do know it involved making regular surveys in the Forest, so some sort of assistant to the Court Medium perhaps?

[137beth]

When Coyote calls the court official whose name I forget "failed cousin," is he saying that guy tried and failed to become a god?

[Ionathus]

This dude's seriously giving me the creeps. I would like him to go away forever, please.

[Rodin]

Well, he's also got Ysengrin's powers, so theoretically he should be at least a little stronger. He's got less experience (and less composure), though, hence the "if".

Ysengrin's powers are mostly Coyote's powers though. All of the tree stuff came from Coyote. I don't think we've ever seen Ysengrin's powers outside of basic "I'm a Wolf" traits.

Loup not being able to maintain the integrity of the forest says everything about the difference in ability to me. He has no clue how to handle Coyote's powers and wields them like a club.

The feats we've seen Coyote accomplish (shrinking the moon down to the size of a golf ball, creating the Annan Gorge with a single swipe of his paw, placing the stars in the sky according to legend) give me no doubt that Coyote could have crushed the Court at any time had he wanted to. He doesn't, because he's a trickster god and smiting your enemies isn't half as fun as screwing with them.

Loup in comparison is a toddler throwing a tantrum. He's impressive compared to what Ysengrin was capable of, but nowhere near what Coyote could do.

[Ellen]

We do know his name: Daniel R. Schiff, or Danny to his friends. As for his job, well, we do know it involved making regular surveys in the Forest, so some sort of assistant to the Court Medium perhaps?

I swear, I used to be able to remember things I'd read. . . .

OK, Annie's phrasing still sounds a bit odd, but I'm guessing she doesn't know the name of the man who died. Or else it just seemed awkward to toss the name in when people like me had forgotten it.

[memnarch]

We do know his name: Daniel R. Schiff, or Danny to his friends. As for his job, well, we do know it involved making regular surveys in the Forest, so some sort of assistant to the Court Medium perhaps?

Reading a bit further past those pages finds this page. I find it neat that Reynard gets that power anyway later.

[JavaScribe]

So I assume this guy tried to reach godhood by becoming a Buddha, got close, failed because he was too malicious, proud, and power hungry, and decided to search for alternative, less virtuous paths?

[Ellen]

So I assume this guy tried to reach godhood by becoming a Buddha, got close, failed because he was too malicious, proud, and power hungry, and decided to search for alternative, less virtuous paths?

The court seems to treat aetheric stuff as merely mechanical. I could see them coming to spiritual things the same way, treating enlightenment as an engineering problem. That kind of attitude might confuse emotional indifference and doing things in cold blood with overcoming desire.

[JavaScribe]

The purpose of the tooth sword has come up, and it's what many of us have probably already guessed.

[wingnutx]

I thought that it would be something along these lines.

[137beth]

Finally it's mentioned!

Yeah, lots of people guessed it.

[Rodin]

I'm still at a loss for what Coyote's overall plan here is.

Step 1: Die.
Step 2: Have Loup go nuts on the Court.
Step 3: Have Annie use the tooth to kill Loup (along with any remaining Coyote-ness)
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit?

[JavaScribe]

His death and Loup's birth are probably bait.

Everything we know about the Court tells us that the rank and file are just regular people, studying the occult mysteries of the ether. The Court's mysterious leaders however, are creepy and probably sociopathic manipulators.

Loup is a rabid dog, scarier than Coyote but also less tricky. People are legitimately afraid of him, and in the Court's eyes, the crisis also provides them with an opportunity. I'm guessing Coyote created him to make the Court accelerate their plans and enjoy the resulting chaos when it all goes awry.

[BRC]

I'm still at a loss for what Coyote's overall plan here is.

Step 1: Die.
Step 2: Have Loup go nuts on the Court.
Step 3: Have Annie use the tooth to kill Loup (along with any remaining Coyote-ness)
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit?

I mean, Coyote doesn't Lie, and he's said his goal was to Experience Death.


Whether that means he'll die and then shenanigan himself back to life, or if he just intends to finalize his death

[tyckspoon]

I'm still at a loss for what Coyote's overall plan here is.

Step 1: Die.
Step 2: Have Loup go nuts on the Court.
Step 3: Have Annie use the tooth to kill Loup (along with any remaining Coyote-ness)
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit?

I've assumed Coyote intends to come back to life at some point, and probably could do so whenever he feels like, but wants to have whatever he's doing for his amusement here finish playing out. Probably so Loup/Ysengrin finishes learning whatever lesson they're supposed to be receiving.

Or possibly he'll just stay dead and be a character that way. It's quite clear that being 'dead' in this world is nowhere near the same thing as 'stopped existing' or even 'can't interact with the living world', after all.

[Max_Killjoy]

If belief can create or empower a god, or even shape reality, retroactively, as has been implied in this setting, then killing a god may be somewhat impossible.

[Rodin]

If belief can create or empower a god, or even shape reality, retroactively, as has been implied in this setting, then killing a god may be somewhat impossible.

Depends on how the system works. For example, in American Gods there were multiple different versions of the various gods. A god with immense power in Europe might have virtually none in Asia, and the two are distinct beings despite springing from the same source of belief.

If belief in Coyote means there will always be the Coyote, then he is effectively immortal. If belief in Coyote means there will always be a Coyote, his death is a very real possibility.

There's also the issue of Coyote using his own power to kill himself. Coyote says using the fang will "truly" kill them, implying a god-slaying power that goes above and beyond the usual scope of such things. A power that slays the soul/ethereal presence, not just the physical body.

[Squire Doodad]

Depends on how the system works. For example, in American Gods there were multiple different versions of the various gods. A god with immense power in Europe might have virtually none in Asia, and the two are distinct beings despite springing from the same source of belief.

If belief in Coyote means there will always be the Coyote, then he is effectively immortal. If belief in Coyote means there will always be a Coyote, his death is a very real possibility.

There's also the issue of Coyote using his own power to kill himself. Coyote says using the fang will "truly" kill them, implying a god-slaying power that goes above and beyond the usual scope of such things. A power that slays the soul/ethereal presence, not just the physical body.

Also of note is that Gods also sometimes "die", and that death can be woven into the fabric of their belief or their role in the world.
If this world has a Set, and Osiris, a Horus and an Isis, it's plausible to believe Osiris as a god is dead by Set's hand.
Though I can't say it is or isn't working like that, a lot of this is going to be contextual. But some of the Psychopomps died to Jeanne, and Coyote apparently died, and has plans to die for good, so I'm leaning towards gods dying being a rare but notable thing.

While the tooth being sharp enough to cut a shadow off the floor and then being sharp enough to cut a soul from a god's body is reasonable, it's also possible that Loup as he is now is a physical entity that possesses Coyote's power, but is still physical and only as immortal as Reynardine or Ysegrin would be.

[Ionathus]

Depends on how the system works. For example, in American Gods there were multiple different versions of the various gods. A god with immense power in Europe might have virtually none in Asia, and the two are distinct beings despite springing from the same source of belief.

If belief in Coyote means there will always be the Coyote, then he is effectively immortal. If belief in Coyote means there will always be a Coyote, his death is a very real possibility.

There's also the issue of Coyote using his own power to kill himself. Coyote says using the fang will "truly" kill them, implying a god-slaying power that goes above and beyond the usual scope of such things. A power that slays the soul/ethereal presence, not just the physical body.

I'm reminded of David Tennant's finale in Doctor Who -- where he acknowledges that regenerating means living on, but having to change as an entity. I can't remember the exact quote but it was something like "I die, and a stranger with a new face steals my life and walks away."

[Ellen]

After I realized how much I'd forgotten a couple a few days ago, I starter rereading the comic, and the comic's been leading up to what a hard action this will be for Annie for a long time.

When you reread it, you know that Annie is angry at Muut and the other psychopomps because she was the one who had to take her mother when she died and feels like she killed her (a feeling that gets worse when she learns she was draining her mother's life). Although she seems almost laid back about death, it's the opposite. Just the idea is deeply upsetting to her.

This is touched on early in the comic when she has a very strong reaction to the fairies' request that she kill them. Even when she knows they won't really die, she's visibly upset about it:

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=144

Again, it's played for laughs, but even a game that focuses on pretending to kill people makes Annie lose sleep.

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=199

But, I think her reaction when she takes Mort into the ether says it all:

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1352

The point is Annie hates causing death or even pretending to cause death, more than any other character I can think of in the comic. And, I suspect Coyote knows this.