Gunnerkrigg Court 8: Thrown for a Loup

[halfeye]

The Court doesn't believe. Casting aside belief is literally their entire point that they just spelled out.

Not believing in anything at all is not possible for anything that thinks.

[sihnfahl]

The Court doesn't believe. Casting aside belief is literally their entire point that they just spelled out.

Belief in a world without Ether. Of pure science. Where dreams and belief in the supernatural hold no sway.

You would not call that a belief?

There's no need for it to be one.

Neither was there a need for the etheric beings to convince Tony to create the 'antenna of bone', which almost killed Annie were it not for Zimmie, yet they did.

And Wisps trap beings in dreams. Lies mixed with enough truth to be believable, and ensnare them until they perish in the hive.

There are malevolent beings tied to the ether.

[Gez]

The Court doesn't believe. Casting aside belief is literally their entire point that they just spelled out.

And they believe they can achieve that.

[JavaScribe]

Their version of "science" is dogmatic enough, that they will probably accidentally turn their warped view of "science" into a new god, probably embodied as one of their top leadership. And they will be too stuck in their cult-like ways to even notice the irony.

[sihnfahl]

Their version of "science" is dogmatic enough, that they will probably accidentally turn their warped view of "science" into a new god, probably embodied as one of their top leadership. And they will be too stuck in their cult-like ways to even notice the irony.

Well, that is theoretically how Jones came to be. An immortal, indestructible, unbiased being that had existed since The Beginning, and observed all of history.

Which it won't talk about because that would stifle humanity's need to Discover.

[137beth]

So, they need everyone in the world with ether to forget about the people going to the world without ether, or else the belief of the people in the world without ether could create magic in the world without ether?

[WanderingMist]

Knew it wasn't a simulation. Also, if they're already off Earth, how did Annie get there?

[Pax1138]

They seem to be attached to Earth, though as that one panel shows, the Court "protrudes" off of "Earth/reality?". I'd imagine there's a main entrance to the Court where you can go in or out between the two. I wonder which is more attached, the Court, or the Forest? I'm guessing the Forest.

[sihnfahl]

Also, if they're already off Earth, how did Annie get there?

Plane. We've seen evidence of people leaving the court (Surma + Tony going to Brazil, Kat and her parents going around the world) via air. Which is apparently so seamless that even Kat can't tell they weren't even on Earth.

The logical question, though, is going to be the terrestrial vs orbital observation point.

If the Court isn't ON Earth, then things like the Moon wouldn't be observed the same way. Lunar alignment and orbit wouldn't match up with a terrestrial observation point.

[wingnutx]

Not believing in anything at all is not possible for anything that thinks.

Unless you are Karl Hungus.

[WanderingMist]

They seem to be attached to Earth, though as that one panel shows, the Court "protrudes" off of "Earth/reality?". I'd imagine there's a main entrance to the Court where you can go in or out between the two. I wonder which is more attached, the Court, or the Forest? I'm guessing the Forest.

I figured the Forest was the contact point with Earth, since the Court buts right up against it after all.

Belief in a world without Ether. Of pure science. Where dreams and belief in the supernatural hold no sway.

You would not call that a belief?

It's not belief if you have a plan that makes it happen.

Neither was there a need for the etheric beings to convince Tony to create the 'antenna of bone', which almost killed Annie were it not for Zimmie, yet they did.

They did exactly what Tony asked which was to get his wife's spirit back. It was not their fault he did not know how Surma's whole fire spirit inheritance worked.

And Wisps trap beings in dreams. Lies mixed with enough truth to be believable, and ensnare them until they perish in the hive.

There are malevolent beings tied to the ether.

These might be from a meta standpoint, but they're still relevant:

Having the Court's whole plan derailed by it actually being a Wisp illusion would be a cop-out. The Court isn't omniscient but they aren't stupid either. No doubt they have ways of seeing through Wisps, especially since wisps don't actually change the underlying reality, just the visual feedback.

We've already had the "this isn't reality, it's a Wisp illusion" happen twice (once with Annie in the Forest, and once with the other members of the Court), and there's already a different, far more malevolent being whose focus is currently an illusion trying to infiltrate the main cast.

[halfeye]

It's not belief if you have a plan that makes it happen.

It is in English. In English, belief means believe <something> to be true, it doesn't stop being a belief if it turns out it is true.

[Willie the Duck]

It is in English. In English, belief means believe <something> to be true, it doesn't stop being a belief if it turns out it is true.

To the point where 'knowing' something is 'a justified true belief.'

[Gez]

It's not belief if you have a plan that makes it happen.

You mean, "if you believe you have a plan that you believe will make it happen".

[WanderingMist]

It is in English. In English, belief means believe <something> to be true, it doesn't stop being a belief if it turns out it is true.

To the point where 'knowing' something is 'a justified true belief.'

You mean, "if you believe you have a plan that you believe will make it happen".

Accursed philosophy majors. That's either Kant or Kirkegaard with that "justified true belief" thing if I'm remembering my philosophers correctly.

I myself am more inclined to find knowledge antithetical to belief, or more accurately, supplants it once it is attained. There is no need for belief once knowledge has been acquired.

[Yuki Akuma]

Accursed philosophy majors. That's either Kant or Kirkegaard with that "justified true belief" thing if I'm remembering my philosophers correctly.

I myself am more inclined to find knowledge antithetical to belief, or more accurately, supplants it once it is attained. There is no need for belief once knowledge has been acquired.

If you refuse to use a word correctly, of course you're going to have communication issues.

[Willie the Duck]

Accursed philosophy majors. That's either Kant or Kirkegaard with that "justified true belief" thing if I'm remembering my philosophers correctly.

I myself am more inclined to find knowledge antithetical to belief, or more accurately, supplants it once it is attained. There is no need for belief once knowledge has been acquired.

I feel like you are using the term 'belief' as close to synonymous with 'faith.' That is a way to use the word, but not the exhaustive meaning of the word.

[sihnfahl]

Okay, so that's the route he's going?

"Aliens are real because humans unknowingly manipulated the ether into creating aliens, just the same way humans unknowingly created creatures like Ysengrin, Coyote, Jones, etc."

Something still stinks about the 'alien' getting the Court to walk into the Ocean, though.

[Rodin]

I feel like you are using the term 'belief' as close to synonymous with 'faith.' That is a way to use the word, but not the exhaustive meaning of the word.

It reminds me of the way Discworld addresses belief and lack of belief.

Gods dislike non-believers and people who believe but don’t worship because they gain no benefit - people knowing you exist but not caring doesn’t help. A fanatical atheist on the other hand doesn’t just think gods don’t exist…he believes they don’t exist to such a degree it counts as worship again.

[eee]

It's looking more and more like the only reason the Court is successful is because they can manipulate the Ether, or have it be manipulated for them. And they're going to give that up because they don't like it.

[sihnfahl]

It's looking more and more like the only reason the Court is successful is because they can manipulate the Ether, or have it be manipulated for them.

Both. Kat's parents, for example, utilize the ether. Parley's fighting skills. The fact that the rojak can fly...

And they're going to give that up because they don't like it.

I think the implication of Aata's statement is that they won't be able to, even if they try.

Aliens? Created by human belief. The worlds they live on that the Court will 'travel' to? Created by human belief. All their tech, knowledge, etc... out of the ether.

Everything's going to be connected back to the Ether in some way...

[eee]

Both. Kat's parents, for example, utilize the ether. Parley's fighting skills. The fact that the rojak can fly...


I think the implication of Aata's statement is that they won't be able to, even if they try.

Aliens? Created by human belief. The worlds they live on that the Court will 'travel' to? Created by human belief. All their tech, knowledge, etc... out of the ether.

Everything's going to be connected back to the Ether in some way...

I suspect the Court's obsession with Zimmy is a clue as to their plans. They're not going to another world. They're going to use all the power they've accumulated to create something like Zimmyngham, a pocket dimension / alternative universe. Only this time, instead of being made of Zimmy's nightmares, it's going to be set up according to the Court's rules. The chief of which is, No Ether.

[Kornaki]

Even this is questionable

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=902

I'm supposed to believe this space creature that swims in the void between stars can only see underwater?

The only explanation that makes sense to me is the water in the pool is from the star ocean, and it metaphorically is outer space so is in fact her natural habitat.

Edit:
I just noticed this

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2027

Coyote must have known about this plan? Although as far as we know antimony is not going.


https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2060

I guess this might be confirmation for the fact that they aren't really on earth.

[WanderingMist]

Ah, Annie's master plan for dealing with the Court matches Charles II of Spain, I see.

"repeatedly baffling {the Court} by continuing to live"

[Gez]

Even this is questionable

https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=902

I'm supposed to believe this space creature that swims in the void between stars can only see underwater?

No.
https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=905
https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=907
https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=914
https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=945

The whole thing was a ruse, letting the girls think that they were sneaking out successfully when in fact Lindsey was just letting them have some harmless fun.

[Ionathus]

Hmm, some big revelations in this one! By saving Annie with the TickTock, Kat seems to have broken the Court's plans...maybe even forced them to accelerate their exodus out of frustration??

Also, while not necessarily a retcon, it does make for an interesting reread of everything leading up to Annie's fall off the bridge. Did any staff Annie talked to know about her dying? I can't imagine Eglamore or Katja or Donny would have known, cause otherwise they'd have tried harder to stop it or been more distraught about her presence. Maybe it was just the higher-ups. What must it be like, to have a machine predict an (effective) orphan's death, and to just watch and wait for it to happen? Lots of layers in this one.

"repeatedly baffling {the Court} by continuing to live"

It is the best power that main characters have, after all!

[sihnfahl]

By saving Annie with the TickTock, Kat seems to have broken the Court's plans

I think the entire exchange comes down to that by saving Annie, the Omega Device the Court was using for predictions stopped working reliably, getting worse because each event triggered by Annie cascaded down the timeline. People met who probably wouldn't have met. Outcomes would be different.

And maybe accelerated the plans? If the Court's ultimate aim was to get away from the Ether anyway, then this is just doing it sooner.

[JavaScribe]

Since the Court uses Omega to make decisions, that means they had the option to save Annie and... decided not to. If there wasn't enough reason to before, I would want to get far away from the Court if I were in Antimony's shoes.

[BRC]

Since the Court uses Omega to make decisions, that means they had the option to save Annie and... decided not to. If there wasn't enough reason to before, I would want to get far away from the Court if I were in Antimony's shoes.

Maybe the Omega device predicted that if Annie survived, it would become less accurate.

[Ionathus]

Maybe the Omega device predicted that if Annie survived, it would become less accurate.

Maybe the Omega device predicted that she WOULD die, fixed-point-in-time style, and the Court thought that interfering could cause causal problems?

That's probably being too charitable though. Likely their reaction really was "oh man, that's too bad, but saving her would muck up THE DATA" like you said.