Yora reviews Babylon 5

[factotum]

See the thing here is I'm not sure it is. We know the Vorlons recruited Jack the Ripper, then sent him to torture Delenn. They have manipulated every sentient race to see them as 'Angels' and the new ambassador behaves like a tyrannical bastard to Lyta.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure the Vorlons didn't do that in the previous Shadow War a thousand years ago, so what's different this time? Sure, Z'Ha'Dum getting nuked is new, but it doesn't really seem to have slowed the Shadows down much, despite what we're told.

[Rodin]

The thing is, I'm pretty sure the Vorlons didn't do that in the previous Shadow War a thousand years ago, so what's different this time? Sure, Z'Ha'Dum getting nuked is new, but it doesn't really seem to have slowed the Shadows down much, despite what we're told.

I think the implication is that the Vorlons have gone a little bit nuts over the past 1000 years.

[Yora]

Kosh happened. Sherridan convinced Kosh that the Vorlons have to help fight the Shadows directly. I think that is something the Vorlons never considered before. It had always been only a proxy war between them. Kosh introduced them to the idea, with good intentions, but once the Vorlons had started to consider attacking the Shadows an option, they decided to go all the way and wipe them out for good.
And unlike Kosh, the other Vorlons really don't care who else gets destroyed in the process.

[Zarrgon]

The thing is, I'm pretty sure the Vorlons didn't do that in the previous Shadow War a thousand years ago, so what's different this time? Sure, Z'Ha'Dum getting nuked is new, but it doesn't really seem to have slowed the Shadows down much, despite what we're told.

It does not get mentioned directly I think, but it would seem that several Shadows died on Z'Ha'Dum. And just like the Vorlons it has likely been eons from the last time a Shadow has died. And remember the Vorlons ''took it hard" when Kosh died.

It's also likely a Shadow Leader or at least an Elder died, and that likely gave the Shadows a pause.

[Yora]

S4E5: The Long Night

Ivanova shows Sherridan a recording that show the Shadows getting back into the war and using a superweapon of their own to wipe clear the surfaces of planets that have been supporting the Vorlons.

On the Narn homeworld, Londo is meeting with other nobles in a dark basement to plan killing Cartagia the same day. One reminds Londo that this whole mess was caused by Refa, and Londo tells him that he already took care of Refa because of that. Others think there must be less extreme alternatives, but Vir tells them that there is no other choice with the Vorlon fleet quickly getting closer to Centauri Prime. Londo tells them openly if Cartagia is not dead by the end of the day, Centauri Prime will be destroyed.

Sherridan tells Ivanova that he has a special mission for her to go find others of the ancient aliens to join their fleet to attack Zahadum. He probably waited with that until now so that she can show up with the cavalry when the battle seems lost.

Londo goes to G'Kar's cell to tell him that some of his people have weakened his chains for the execution and bribed the local guards. The plan is for G'Kar to distract the emperor's personal guards to give Londo's conspirators an opportunity to kill Cartagia. G'Kar must not touch him, because there would be terrible repercussions for the Narn.

Vir has acquired a poisoned needle that can kill a Centauri with a dose small enough to be undetectable, but it also needs to be stabbed directly into the heart to work. It should look like some kind of fatal heart attack with no indication of being caused by poison. It should kill almost instantaneously, but Londo wonders how long that is exactly, and if Cartagia will have enough time to shout that Londo poisoned him.

G'Kar is taken from his cell and led to his execution. On the way he stumbles and Narn rush to help him up. Very biblical.

Cartagia tells Londo that he had G'Kar's chains replaced, just to be on the safe side. When G'Kar is brought to his throne room he breaks his chains anyway and the Narn that have been brought to witness his execution start rioting. Londo tells Cartagia that he has leave and get to safety. Cartagia is outraged and slaps Londo, who drops the poisoned needle. Vir comes looking what takes them so long and stabs Cartagia with the needle as he is trying to strangle Londo.

When the news of the emperor's death are told to the nobles, nobody really seems that distressed or have questions about such a young man having a heart attack. Londo tells them that the Narn must be cursed, as the last two emperors both have died while trying to deal with them, and they should all just return to Centauri Prime and leave the Narn to themselves.
With there still being the matter of the Vorlons approaching Centauri Prime, and Londo being Cartagia's defense advisor, one of the senior nobles calls for Londo to be the new prime ministers and everyone else seems to be in agreement.

Sherridan, Delenn, and Garibaldi are wondering why the Vorlons and the Shadows are only targeting each other's supporters but do not attack each other directly. Ranger Brian Cranston calls Delenn that his ship has discovered the Shadow fleet destroying the surface of a planet that has been supporting the Vorlons. Lennier has been able to track the movement of the Vorlon fleet and thinks he knows with great certainty which major planet they will blow up next.

Vir is upset about all the terrible things he has to do since he started working for Londo, and Londo apologizes for that. But he also tells him that killing Cartagia was necessary and will save Centauri Prime. That he's feeling upset should be seen as a sign that he's still a good person.

Sherridan informs the ambassadors that they know which planet the Vorlons will attack next and they have no other choice than trying to stop them in an open battle. His plan is to lure the Shadows to the system at the same time and get the two fleets to fight each other.
He calls Brian Cranston to give him the order to meet with four other ships and attack a shadow base. A nearby Shadow fleet will arrive probably very quickly, and somehow his ship needs to fall into the hands of the Shadows with fake battle plans in the computer.

G'Kar finds Narn destroying palace that the Centauri have abandoned. One of the Narn tells him that they want him to be their new king and lead them to war to destroy the Centauri. G'Kar wants nothing to do with that, saying the Centauri need no help destroying themselves, and it's instead the time to start rebuilding their own homeworld. The Narn says that sounds cowardly, coming from someone was away in safety while they had to live under the occupation. He wants to know what G'Kar endured to help them, at which G'Kar simply laughs and walks out.

Sherridan gets confirmation that the Ranger ship was captured by the Shadows and Delenn tells them that other ships have started striking at the Vorlon fleet to slow it down. They get on their own ship to join the main fleet getting ready for battle.

--

Alight, this is better. Together with Vir, we're finally getting good performances from Londo again. Cartagia was fun when he appeared, but somehow Londo always looked frozen up when next to him, which wasn't very entertaining to watch. And finally we get one scene with G'Kar being back to form when talking to the other Narn at the end. During his imprisonment he really didn't do anything except standing with his head down and keeping his mouth shut. Even when Londo was talking to him in his cell, G'Kar did not really react to it most of the time. Good to have him back.

I am surprised that Cartagia's stay on the show was such a short one. One five episodes and he's gone again already. That character left a very big impact on the show even with such a limited appearance.

On the other hand, the preparations to resume the war with the Shadows and now the also the Vorlons keeps meandering and not really getting anywhere, which is why I still only rate this episode as okay in total. But this is a greenish yellow now instead of a reddish yellow.

The hairdresser of the makeup department still like playing with Ivanova's hair. Something different every episode. I guess even Ivanova needs a hobby.

At one point Cartagia tells Londo what an amazing job the servants have done with making his chambers on the Narn homeworld look almost exactly like his throne room on Centauri Prime.

Still not a fan of the opening credits. The music is good and I like how it reflects the intended shift in tone for the season, but everything else feels like it was put together by an intern the night before the first episode aired. The intros for season 2 and 3 were a lot better.

[Kantaki]

Vir and Londo discussing how instantly instantly is and how much (and what) Cartagia will be able to say in that time is once again a great piece of comedy.
Especially because they're clearly trying to hide/overcome their nervosity.

[Douglas]

One thing I really like about this episode and the following one is the contrast in fleet sizes between them and the rest of the show.

For the entire show before this point - three whole seasons and a few episodes of the fourth - even just three or four ships acting together as a group is a big deal and rarely happens. Then the final act of the Vorlon/Shadow war begins, and suddenly Sheridan is leading a seemingly endless sea of ships into battle.

To me, that might even be more effective at showing the sheer scale of what's happening than the planet destruction.

[Yora]

S4E6: Into the Fire

Ivanova and Lorien have been able to recruit five of the ancient alien species to join their fleet (off screen) and manage to find a sixth one.

Meanwhile Sherridan, Delenn, and Lennier are busy baiting the Shadows and Vorlons to get them into their trap.

Londo tries to take charge of things on Centauri Prime and makes his plans to deal with Morden. Vir's hair got a promotion.

Ivanova has a conversation with Lorien who says his people were naturally immortal and implied that they created mortality as a benefit for the species that came after them.

One palace official comes to Londo with information that probably only concern him personally. As head of Centauri intelligence, he learned that Londo's girlfriend was killed by poison in response to Londo trying to poison Refa. Since it's part of their job, his people continued to investigate even after Refa was killed. He made a final report to the emperor, who ordered him that Londo must never learn about it for as long as he lives. Now that the emperor is dead, he wants to share the information with Londo. What they discovered is that the assassin wasn't send by Refa, but was hired by Morden. He most likely expected Londo to blame Refa and come to him for help.
Londo dismisses the official and proceeds to have an angry breakdown in his quarters.

Marcus informs Sherridan that the battlefield is prepared with the nuclear mines that G'Kar had supplied for them.

Guards drag Morden before Londo in the throne room on Centauri Prime, who wants to know what this is about. Londo tells him the Vorlons are on their way to destroy the Shadow base on the planet and since the emperor is now dead and he is in charge, he is ordering Morden to have all the Shadow ships leave. Which Morden kindly refuses. Londo has the guards step aside and shot the spaces next to Morden, hitting and killing his two invisible Shadow bodyguards, but Morden does not give in to the demand. The Shadow ships are much more powerful than any ships that the Centauri have, and they will sense approaching ships from long distances that gives them plenty of time to get ready for battle. Nothing could probably harm them other than blowing up the whole island under them. Which Londo agrees and pulls out a detonator.
Sad about the island, really. But better than losing the whole planet.

Ivanova's ship joins up with Sherridan's fleet, and it turns out to be just in time as Lyta senses the Shadow fleet approaching. The Vorlons come out of hyperspace just at the right moment. Sherridan gives the order to detonate the mines and hit the two fleets significantly and then has his own ships join the battle.

Londo calls Vir to the throne room to inform him that he has removed all Shadow influence from Centauri Prime. He wants Vir to go to the garden and look at something, and he will follow him shortly. He finds Morden's head stuck on a pike, and waves to it as he promised.
Londo thinks everything should be fine now, but Vir remembers that Londo would also count as a servant of the Shadows. A Vorlon Planet Destroyer appears in the sky and Londo tells Vir he has to kill him and call the Vorlons to let them know. Fortunately, at that moment the Vorlon fleet fighting the Shadows and Sherridan calls for all other ships to reinforce them immediately and the fleet at Centauri Prime turns to leave without finishing their business.

The Vlorlons hijack Lyta to get into the mind of Sherridan and the Vorlons do the same with Delenn. Lorien tells Lennier not to interfere, as this is something they were hoping to accomplish to talk with the Vorlons and Shadows directly. The Vorlons and the Shadows try to get them to come over to their side, but Sherridan and Delenn have figured out that they don't try to destroy each other, but simply try to prove that their ways are superior and the younger species will reject the other. But instead Sherridan decides that they should not take any side. The Shadows use their planet destroying death cloud to pause the battle. After some more arguing the Shadows decide that nothing of that will matter if Sherridan is dead and send a missile against his ship. But other ships from the fleet keep crashing into the missiles to stop them, proving that the other species also reject them. Lorien tells the Shadows and the Vorlons that it is time for them to leave the galaxy and leave the younger species to themselves, and he and the other remaining ancient species will go with them.

--

Off, this episode is messy. It's pretty spectacular, but under a critical view it is full of storytelling flaws. Londo and Vir on Centauri Prime are pretty good, having a couple of really nice scenes.

But this whole Shadow-Vorlon war was a total mess. Yes, they had to change their plans knowing that they wouldn't get the planned season 5 and would have to to squeeze both the Shadow war and the Earth war into one season. But instead of making it half and half, the Shadow War gets wrapped up in the first quarter of season 4. And not even that, most of these six episodes went very much wasted. Nothing really happened during the first four and all the relevant stuff was squeezed into just two episodes.
I really enjoyed these episodes the previous times I watched them, and there is enough excitement and novelty to make them work when watching the first time. But it also distracts from how shoddy most of the plotting is. Getting the Shadows and the Vorlons to be at exactly the same point within just seconds from each other feels a bit questionable. Then they ignore Sherridan's fleet and go at each other, but Sherridan is ordering his fleet to throw themselves into the chaos as well. Why exactly? Then the Vorlons hijacking Lyta to get into Sherridan's mind makes sense. But how can the Shadows hijack her to get into Delenn's mind at the same time? That seems really dubious. And why do the Shadows telepathically communicate with Delenn. They never have done anything that suggests such an ability before. And why are they interested in Delenn now? Then Lorien pulls the two of them out of the connection and the Shadows and Vorlons both send a hologram of their leader to Sherridan's bridge to continue the conversation? What's the purpose of that?
And in the meantime, I think Earth was not even mentioned once in this whole season yet.

Maybe the writers had to work on very short notice to make this happen. That excuses the quality of their work, but that doesn't make the work any better.

It's still just an okay episode and a very disappointing end to the Shadow story.

[GrayDeath]

That was always an episode that was great for WHAT happened, not HOW (except of ourse Virs greatest Moment, that is how its done folks! not like GoT did....).

[Grey Watcher]

S4E6: Into the Fire

Ivanova has a conversation with Lorien who says his people were naturally immortal and implied that they created mortality as a benefit for the species that came after them.

Wait, I had understood that Lorien's people didn't invent or induce mortality, but that it was something that happened naturally. Lorien's panpsychism causes him to frame it as "the universe changed its mind about how sentient life should be," but whatever the cause, it still seemed to me to be something that happened to his people, not something that he and his peers did to them.

Fortunately, at that moment the Vorlon fleet fighting the Shadows and Sherridan calls for all other ships to reinforce them immediately and the fleet at Centauri Prime turns to leave without finishing their business.

This, by the way, is the payoff for the Gather the First Ones subplot. It's heavily implied that nothing the younger races have could possibly destroy the Planet Killer. So when the First Ones come out of stealth mode and destroy the Planet Killer, that's when the Vorlons (and possibly the Shadows too) start to actually realize they are having a Big Problem.

Plus, there's a certain layer of... irony? tragedy? something to the fact that I don't think Londo ever learns the truth about why the Vorlons left. He seems to think in the moment that the Vorlons decided at the last minute that they were satisfied with his efforts and decided not to blow up millions of people just to get one man. A misunderstanding that no one disabuses him of to my knowledge.

But how can the Shadows hijack her to get into Delenn's mind at the same time? That seems really dubious. And why do the Shadows telepathically communicate with Delenn. They never have done anything that suggests such an ability before. And why are they interested in Delenn now? Then Lorien pulls the two of them out of the connection and the Shadows and Vorlons both send a hologram of their leader to Sherridan's bridge to continue the conversation? What's the purpose of that?

It's especially wonky because the Shadows don't have telepathy. That's always been the Vorlons' big advantage, one they've gone out of their way to pass along to the younger races. My memory's fuzzy on the details, but Lyta might actually be reaching out to them? (But then that starts to get into Obvious Trap territory.) Getting them talking and then Lorien surreptitiously broadcasting the conversation seems to have been part of the plan. The idea being to get them to verbalize their bad reasons for acting and letting everyone hear it for themselves. (As the Shadow mental construct thingy says "You've let them see!")

Still, it would rather make sense for the Vorlons to appeal to the person who was formerly their most loyal advocate, Delenn. And the Shadows have more influence among humans in general and have already tried to appeal to Sheridan specifically once. I think it might've worked better the other way around, but I guess it's a minor detail in the grand scheme of things.

The encased in ice part of the Vorlon's imagery never made sense. I get that they're going for a high queen, prophetess, religious icon vibe, but the ice seems... counter productive.

It's still just an okay episode and a very disappointing end to the Shadow story.

Maybe it's meant to be that Lorien and the other First One's presence is the key difference, but it does seem weird that, after they've gone so far off the "I'm not listening" deep end as to start blowing up entire planets, that they'd suddenly stop and just let Sheridan choose, much less respecting any choice that wasn't in their favor. Plus, yeah, it seems weird that they're blowing up planets, but stop short of annihilating the fleet to keep the secret that Lorien just spilled.

Having it come down to one person making the choice on behalf of all people is a common enough fantasy/mythic trope that it fits well-enough. I just think they needed to maybe sell a bit more why the Vorlons and Shadows are suddenly willing to listen to anyone. Again, I guess you can say that Lorien's presence shames them into behaving, but if so it feels undersold. Plus, it kinda undercuts the "younger races taking things into their own hands" if the conflict is resolved by one First One who happens to (for once) have the younger races' best interests at heart pulling rank.

It's not bad per se, and none of this has ever really bothered me while watching, but it is the kind of thing that really crumbles when you take a step back and look at it.

[factotum]

I think the episode can be forgiven many of its flaws for some of the best scenes in this or any other show--Londo's showdown with Morden, and Vir getting what he always wanted, are just some of my favourite scenes. There are things that are clearly done for dramatic reasons and make no sense--for instance, there's no way they should have been able to both hear and feel the destruction of Celini from the palace within seconds of it happening unless Londo is setting off nukes right next door, and the Vorlon ship sent to destroy Centauri Prime being called away when its twin is destroyed is just foolish; given hyperspace speeds in B5 it can't possibly make it all the way to the battle in time to make a difference, and considering it's a planet killer with few or no apparent defences of its own, what use would it be there anyway? They really just had to have the dramatic moment when Londo is looking up at the planet killer eclipsing the sun and asking Vir to kill him, then have the ship go away for absolutely no reason because Centauri Prime can't be destroyed right now.

However, all that being said, I still hate "Get the hell out of our galaxy!". Hated it when I first watched Sheridan say it quarter of a century ago and time hasn't improved it.

[comicshorse]

The encased in ice part of the Vorlon's imagery never made sense. I get that they're going for a high queen, prophetess, religious icon vibe, but the ice seems... counter productive.

I was thought it represented the Vorlons belief in order and control. Indicating the unchanging nature of their society and their beliefs. Their society has stopped changing and advancing, it is frozen in place

[Zarrgon]

But it also distracts from how shoddy most of the plotting is. Getting the Shadows and the Vorlons to be at exactly the same point within just seconds from each other feels a bit questionable. Then they ignore Sherridan's fleet and go at each other, but Sherridan is ordering his fleet to throw themselves into the chaos as well. Why exactly?

So part of the rules the Vorlons and Shadows were operating under was that they would avoid direct physical confrontations. They don't want to kill each other: they want to prove the other side is wrong. So the whole idea was to get the two big fleets at the same place at the same time...WITHOUT...both of them realizing it. They manipulated both fleets and brought them face to face. Then each side rushed towards each other: thinking THEY broke the rules.

Of course, once the shock of the meeting is over, BOTH fleets might just disengage. So to prevent this from happening, Sheridin attacks. Neither the Vorlons or Shadow will run when under attack from the ''lesser races". Plus it add to the general confusion.

Then the Vorlons hijacking Lyta to get into Sherridan's mind makes sense. But how can the Shadows hijack her to get into Delenn's mind at the same time? That seems really dubious. And why do the Shadows telepathically communicate with Delenn. They never have done anything that suggests such an ability before. And why are they interested in Delenn now?

I think you missed something:The VORLONS telepathically contact Delenn, and the SHADOWS telepathically contact Lyta.

Then Lorien pulls the two of them out of the connection and the Shadows and Vorlons both send a hologram of their leader to Sherridan's bridge to continue the conversation? What's the purpose of that?

The two telepathic progections were waiting for Sheridain and Deleen to make the Choice: What SIDE did he want to be on? Remember that is all the Shadow and Vorlons care about: Being RIGHT. And they pick option three: not to fight.

It's especially wonky because the Shadows don't have telepathy. That's always been the Vorlons' big advantage, one they've gone out of their way to pass along to the younger races.

It should be clear that the Shadows have telepathy. It's part of the ''natural" way all life evolves. We do see this throughout B5. Telepathy, telekinesis, future sight, 'energy bodies', immortality are all part of being an Ascended ''Ancient One" race.

B5 leaves it an open question "if" Vorlons are telepathic...Sheridin says a couple times something like ''we don't know". But he is just being silly: Both the Vorlons and Shadows are all Epic Level Psionicsist Demi Gods, and he knows it.

The encased in ice part of the Vorlon's imagery never made sense. I get that they're going for a high queen, prophetess, religious icon vibe, but the ice seems... counter productive.

The Ice represented the Vorlons extreme LAWFULNESS, as opposed the the Shadows CHAOS. The Vorlons are by the book and don't chnage (much)...aka ''they are like your parents".

[Grey Watcher]

It should be clear that the Shadows have telepathy. It's part of the ''natural" way all life evolves. We do see this throughout B5. Telepathy, telekinesis, future sight, 'energy bodies', immortality are all part of being an Ascended ''Ancient One" race.

B5 leaves it an open question "if" Vorlons are telepathic...Sheridin says a couple times something like ''we don't know". But he is just being silly: Both the Vorlons and Shadows are all Epic Level Psionicsist Demi Gods, and he knows it.

Spoiler: Some Season 5 stuff, some spinoff movie stuff

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While the "transcend physical form" is eventually established as thing many races eventually do, it's not gauranteed. I think JMS at some point stated that by 1,002,262 AD, humans and Minbari have transcended physical form, but the Narn and the Centauri have not. I always understood that the Shadows still have physical bodies (hence why they can be shot by the Centauri guards).

As for telepathy, I again had the distinct impression (I think it comes up in the Byron story arc) that telepathy was specifically seeded in the younger races by the Vorlons in order to combat Shadow influence. The Shadows were responsible for killing off all telepaths among the Narn because they didn't want them mucking about with their base on the Narn homeworld.

Telepaths can block other telepaths of similar or lesser power. If the Shadows had telepathy, then a Vorlon enhanced telepath like Lyta wouldn't be an effective weapon against them. It's why the Shadows were getting rogue telepaths from Psi-Corps; for once they had an opportunity to nullify that particular method of attack from the Vorlons and their allies/servants/pawns/whatever.

Again, I was always quite convinced that the Vorlons were actually quite RARE for having telepathy naturally.

EDIT: And whatever the origin, the Vorlons are definitely telepathic. Between Kosh contacting Sheridan in his dreams and Ulkesh being able to force his way into Lyta's mind ("OPEN!"), no ambiguity that they're telepathic.

The Ice represented the Vorlons extreme LAWFULNESS, as opposed the the Shadows CHAOS. The Vorlons are by the book and don't chnage (much)...aka ''they are like your parents".

I was thought it represented the Vorlons belief in order and control. Indicating the unchanging nature of their society and their beliefs. Their society has stopped changing and advancing, it is frozen in place

I get the out-of-character symbolism, but they seem to be able to chose how they appear in these visions: the Shadows go for appearing with the faces of friends and allies, much as they've done so far. They don't show up in all their spidery-crustaceany-spikey glory, they find a charming, relatable person to be the face of their operation. Granted, in this moment, they can't contain their smugness, but the whole point of everything that's happened since Z'ha'dum is "You guys aren't nearly as clever as you think you are."

So it seems weird, in character, that the Vorlons would specifically represent themselves as trapped or frozen. I guess I'd just expect a "beyond your ability to touch" visual metaphor that doesn't imply as much helplessness as trapped in a block of ice does. Like putting themselves on a literal pedestal, issuing proclamations from on high or something. I mean, when they've revealed themselves, they appear as literal angels. Ulkesh's demise makes it clear that that is essentially a costume: Ulkesh and what's left of Kosh appear as weird snakey Cthulhu ghosts when they throw down against each other (whether that's their natural state or just a convenient form for combat is never clarified). So why not go for a divine light in the sky or a burning bush or a golden eastern dragon or something?

[russdm]

I have to confess, that i like the Shadows look. Very alien, and they interesting looking ships too. Sure, the characters say all sorts of stuff about their design and whatever being really sinister, but i never got that myself. The shadow ships are simply...beautiful. Like spiders can be at times. For the CGI that B5 used, the Shadows look really good, while the Vorlon ships look terrible, in terms of CGI. just blobby, early bad CGI. And the shadows had that nice sound with their cloaks/cloaking-effect too.

If you want definitely sinister, look at the Borg. They have those cube ships.

[factotum]

Spoiler: Some Season 5 stuff, some spinoff movie stuff

Show

Telepaths can block other telepaths of similar or lesser power. If the Shadows had telepathy, then a Vorlon enhanced telepath like Lyta wouldn't be an effective weapon against them. It's why the Shadows were getting rogue telepaths from Psi-Corps; for once they had an opportunity to nullify that particular method of attack from the Vorlons and their allies/servants/pawns/whatever.

It's also worth noting that if the Shadows were telepaths they'd presumably have been able to read Sheridan's intentions when he arrived at Z'Ha'Dum, which they manifestly could not. It's somewhat unclear if the Shadows actually pilot their own ships, though--the implication is that they use enslaved younger race members for that task, they just had to make do with non-telepathic ones before they struck their deal with Earth and Psi Corps. (I'm basing this on the fact that the Shadow ship on Mars "woke up" as soon as somebody went aboard it, and Delenn explicitly said that person would go insane without the proper preparation).

[comicshorse]

[QUOTE=Grey Watcher;24438634
I get the out-of-character symbolism, but they seem to be able to chose how they appear in these visions: the Shadows go for appearing with the faces of friends and allies, much as they've done so far. They don't show up in all their spidery-crustaceany-spikey glory, they find a charming, relatable person to be the face of their operation. Granted, in this moment, they can't contain their smugness, but the whole point of everything that's happened since Z'ha'dum is "You guys aren't nearly as clever as you think you are."

So it seems weird, in character, that the Vorlons would specifically represent themselves as trapped or frozen. I guess I'd just expect a "beyond your ability to touch" visual metaphor that doesn't imply as much helplessness as trapped in a block of ice does. Like putting themselves on a literal pedestal, issuing proclamations from on high or something. I mean, when they've revealed themselves, they appear as literal angels. Ulkesh's demise makes it clear that that is essentially a costume: Ulkesh and what's left of Kosh appear as weird snakey Cthulhu ghosts when they throw down against each other (whether that's their natural state or just a convenient form for combat is never clarified). So why not go for a divine light in the sky or a burning bush or a golden eastern dragon or something?[/QUOTE]

I don't think the Vorlons see it as being trapped. They see it as having reached and maintained perfection for all these centuries. What we would call stagnation they proudly regard as keeping their civilization at its pinnacle and generously wishing to share its glories and ideals with other races (who should be damn sight more grateful). That's my Head Cannon at least

[Rakaydos]

Also bear in mind that even if the shadows are not telepathic, bester's girlfriend is evidence that they have high level telepaths now, that they can control. While it is not so direct as having the ability itself, they have turned the vorlon advantage back on itself.

[factotum]

Also bear in mind that even if the shadows are not telepathic, bester's girlfriend is evidence that they have high level telepaths now, that they can control. While it is not so direct as having the ability itself, they have turned the vorlon advantage back on itself.

Do they actually have them, though, or was the shipment of telepaths that was intercepted (e.g. the one Bester's girlfriend was part of) the only one? I'm not sure that's ever made clear.

[Zarrgon]

While the "transcend physical form" is eventually established as thing many races eventually do, it's not gauranteed. I think JMS at some point stated that by 1,002,262 AD, humans and Minbari have transcended physical form, but the Narn and the Centauri have not. I always understood that the Shadows still have physical bodies (hence why they can be shot by the Centauri guards).

It's not gauranteed. But the Shadows don't have ''normal" physical bodies, at the very least they are ''out of phase" or exist partly in another dimension. And I never though those were typical Centauri guards with normal weapons: they were super advanced weapons.

As for telepathy, I again had the distinct impression (I think it comes up in the Byron story arc) that telepathy was specifically seeded in the younger races by the Vorlons in order to combat Shadow influence. The Shadows were responsible for killing off all telepaths among the Narn because they didn't want them mucking about with their base on the Narn homeworld.

Telepathy is a normal part of assending(and even if it was not you'd have the tech to make everyone telepaths anyway). The Vorlons did ''jump start" telepath in all the other races.

Telepaths can block other telepaths of similar or lesser power. If the Shadows had telepathy, then a Vorlon enhanced telepath like Lyta wouldn't be an effective weapon against them.

Yea, but that is all vague with a lot of unknowns. Like maybe when your plugged into a Shadow ship your minds need to be 100% open and it leaves you vulnerable to attack.

Again, I was always quite convinced that the Vorlons were actually quite RARE for having telepathy naturally.

Maybe it was rare...once..thousands of years ago. But the Vorlons have had the ability to create telepaths for at least a thousand years or two: more then long enough to effect their whole race.

EDIT: And whatever the origin, the Vorlons are definitely telepathic. Between Kosh contacting Sheridan in his dreams and Ulkesh being able to force his way into Lyta's mind ("OPEN!"), no ambiguity that they're telepathic.

The show is not so clear. A couple times someone like Sheridin says ''at least once Kosh spoke to me (telepathically) in a dream" and in about the same breath "if the Vorlons are telepathic it's an open book question".

It's also worth noting that if the Shadows were telepaths they'd presumably have been able to read Sheridan's intentions when he arrived at Z'Ha'Dum, which they manifestly could not.

Or...maybe...it was because Sheirdan was...Touched By The Vorlons! Plus Sheirdin did also have a ''part" of Kosh in side him to hide his thoughts.

It's somewhat unclear if the Shadows actually pilot their own ships

Well, it would seem Shadow ships...like Vorlon ships are alive and can ''fly themselves". Shadow ships use telepathic people as ''computers", but even so it would seem they could still fly the ship on "manual".

Do they actually have them, though, or was the shipment of telepaths that was intercepted (e.g. the one Bester's girlfriend was part of) the only one? I'm not sure that's ever made clear.

The show never focuses on any Shadow so we really know very little about them.

For four seasons, just about every time we see Mr. Morden he does a tilt his head and listen. Sometimes a odd sound is heard...but not every time. But every time Mordon does get orders. So were the silent ones by telepathy?

The same way that once in a while the Shadows use radio....and there are lots of times they don't, but still communicate. So, by Telepathy?

[russdm]

The Shadows could have set it up that Morden could communicate with them in some form, and that they could speak back. After all, we always Morden speaking to them, not just showing some sign of him using Telepathy towards them. I mean, if the Shadows were telepathic, then Morden could just think everything to them, and not speak. So clearly, at least with Morden, the Shadows aren't using telepathy, or Morden is being weird by speaking to himself (Since no one can really see the Shadows)

One thing that was never probably explained, and for which the show suffers heavily for:

The Vorlon/Order vs Shadows/Chaos conflict)
I never got why this existed or why it mattered. It didn't really seem like it was anything other than a pair of questions asked, that both ought to be answered anyway.

Vorlons-"Who are you?" vs Shadows-"What do you want?")
If you don't know who you are/are you; then how could know you what you actually want? And how exactly were the Vorlons supposed to be guiding races? With quasi-riddle speak? I mean, were the Vorlons really supposed to be wise? Because they came across more like being enigmatic and more Ice Cream Koan like Uncle Iroh from Avatar: hte last airbender. Like really Zen Ice Cream Koan. Maybe the story could put their 'wisdom' in a more open form? or more of it?

When Sheriden does one of his tests/whatevers, Kosh sends him to those singing monks, the ones that Sheridan gives one of his gold captain bars too. It doesn't have that quasi-mystical feel, because, if Sheridan went walking around heavily in different areas of the station, he easily could have come across them on his own.

I mean, i feel like Vorlons get hyped up by Deleen to this larger than life Yoda-Wise figures, but then don't across with that amount of actual interest, or viability. Like what help are those lessons really? Could have they been more beyond a somewhat cheap hack of Q from TNG and what he was doing with Picard at times?

The Shadows seems to offer real practical advice, like asking what someone wants and then helping them to get it. It might be really bad for the person, but the Shadows help with giant spaceships that can blow stuff up, and returning stolen objects. Its like their a form of Sherlock Holmes in a way.

So, really. What was the conflict, and what was it really about? And don't use the series excuse that they forget about what they were 'fighting' over. Because that is just an incrediably cheap answer to give.

Kosh felt at times like a weird self-help book with pithy sayings.

[Grey Watcher]

The Shadows could have set it up that Morden could communicate with them in some form, and that they could speak back. After all, we always Morden speaking to them, not just showing some sign of him using Telepathy towards them. I mean, if the Shadows were telepathic, then Morden could just think everything to them, and not speak. So clearly, at least with Morden, the Shadows aren't using telepathy, or Morden is being weird by speaking to himself (Since no one can really see the Shadows)

One thing that was never probably explained, and for which the show suffers heavily for:

The Vorlon/Order vs Shadows/Chaos conflict)
I never got why this existed or why it mattered. It didn't really seem like it was anything other than a pair of questions asked, that both ought to be answered anyway.

Vorlons-"Who are you?" vs Shadows-"What do you want?")
If you don't know who you are/are you; then how could know you what you actually want? And how exactly were the Vorlons supposed to be guiding races? With quasi-riddle speak? I mean, were the Vorlons really supposed to be wise? Because they came across more like being enigmatic and more Ice Cream Koan than Uncle Iroh from Avatar: hte last airbender. Like really Zen Ice Cream Koan. Maybe the story could put their 'wisdom' in a more open form? or more of it?

When Sheriden does one of his tests/whatevers, Kosh sends him to those singing monks, the ones that Sheridan gives one of his gold captain bars too. It doesn't have that quasi-mystical feel, because, if Sheridan went walking around heavily in different areas of the station, he easily could have come across them on his own.

I mean, i feel like Vorlons get hyped up by Deleen to this larger than life Yoda-Wise figures, but then don't across with that amount of actual interest, or viability. Like what help are those lessons really? Could have they been more beyond a somewhat cheap hack of Q from TNG and what he was doing with Picard at times?

The Shadows seems to offer real practical advice, like asking what someone wants and then helping them to get it. It might be really bad for the person, but the Shadows help with giant spaceships that can blow stuff up, and returning stolen objects. Its like their a form of Sherlock Holmes in a way.

So, really. What was the conflict, and what was it really about? And don't use the series excuse that they forget about what they were 'fighting' over. Because that is just an incrediably cheap answer to give.

Kosh felt at times like a weird self-help book with pithy sayings.

It doesn't answer all of the questions you raise here, but it does remind me of a thought I had about one way their teaching methods contrast:

The Vorlons go for an inside-out model of advancement. They want to guide you to some sort of truer understanding. They (ostensibly) seek to make you a better person and, once that has been achieved you can use your new perspective to build better technology or a better form of government or a better economic system. They can't just tell you plainly, because, as they say "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Getting to understand whatever they're trying to teach, really grasp it on a level beyond just learning to repeat the words requires some effort on the part of the learner. So they dangle understanding just out of reach, inviting their students to unravel the cryptic sayings. (I mean, isn't that kind of the point of real koans? To get you to stop and ponder the meaning of something that is, on the face of it, nonsensical or stupidly vague and find real meaning in it?) And the beauty of talking that cryptically is that you can just pretend that whatever the student made of it is what you meant the whole time. "Something something it's the journey, not the destination something, something."

The Shadows, by contrast, go for an outside-in approach. They will give you that whiz-bang new technology, the blueprints for your ideal government, the influence to get that half-baked idea about the perfect economy that you came up with while high instated as actual policy. And dealing with the consequences will either force you and your people to become more enlightened or you'll all get yourselves killed. (As Justin says, regrettable, but apparently not a deal breaker to the Shadows.)

Framing it in the show as "order vs. chaos" is terribly glib and poetic, but it's also really, really broad and doesn't get at what they're trying to do.

I don't know if that's the WHOLE of the distinction, but it always seemed to be part of it, from how I read it.

[GrayDeath]

Also, on a less absolute "Internally understandable" view:

The Vorlons are concerned about who you are, where you come from, what this tells about your potential, about how much you know about yourself.
They are Jediesk

The Shadows are concerned about what you want, as it demonstrates what you lack, where your passion lies and what your ultimate Goals are.
A bit Sthi, no?

^^

[Zarrgon]

And how exactly were the Vorlons supposed to be guiding races? With quasi-riddle speak?

The Vorlon's manipulated everything from behind the curtains. So they lead from behind, in secret. again, as said, they are a lot like parents: they are guiding races along the path they think is right, but they are very much ''help those that help themselves."

I mean, i feel like Vorlons get hyped up by Deleen to this larger than life Yoda-Wise figures, but then don't across with that amount of actual interest, or viability. Like what help are those lessons really?

While there is a lot of hype, and Vorlon's do have a bit of wisdom and experience: they are not perfect. The show does have this in it. The Vorlon life lessons were more about general things like having an open mind and seeing things as they really are: lots of philosophy.

You can see the Huge effect Kosh alone had on both the Human and Narn people with just three years of activity.

So, really. What was the conflict, and what was it really about? And don't use the series excuse that they forget about what they were 'fighting' over. Because that is just an incrediably cheap answer to give.

Vorlon Way: Order, Peace, Understanding, Logic, Cooperation, Diversity, Unity. Everyone should work together and everyone must obey the rules of life(as the Vorlons see them anyway).

Shadow way: Chaos, War, Illogical, Selfish, Purity, Division and that infamous Darwin "survival of the Fittest." Everyone should be out for themselves and do as they wish. The powerful do and take as they wish, and the weak suffer and die.

[factotum]

Vorlon Way: Order, Peace, Understanding, Logic, Cooperation, Diversity, Unity. Everyone should work together and everyone must obey the rules of life(as the Vorlons see them anyway).

Which essentially boils down to "everyone must do what the Vorlons say or they'll be punished" most of the time. Even original Kosh wasn't immune to that attitude, as shown when he halfway killed Sheridan when the latter dared to demand something of him.

[Morgaln]

I always took Ivanova's encounter with the Shadows in Episode 0305 Voices of Authority during her time in the Great Machine as evidence that the Shadows do possess telepathic powers.
Even if that is not the case, the Drakh definitely are telepathic, so the Shadows had access to telepaths for the entirety of the show.

Also

Spoiler

Show

In the upcoming episode 0407 Epiphanies, Lyta sends a telepathic signal that causes Z'ha'dum to be destroyed. It's unlikely the Drakh would have destroyed the planet on the mere word of a completely unknown person, not to mention that they could easily have fought off a single ship, so it is more likely to be an automated system activated by telepathy. There's no reason for the planet to have a telepathically activated system for self-destruction if the Shadows weren't able to turn it on (and even more importantly, turn it off again) themselves.

[Grey Watcher]

I always took Ivanova's encounter with the Shadows in Episode 0305 Voices of Authority during her time in the Great Machine as evidence that the Shadows do possess telepathic powers.
Even if that is not the case, the Drakh definitely are telepathic, so the Shadows had access to telepaths for the entirety of the show.

That assumes that what the Great Machine was doing was telepathic. Though there was also whatever weird hypnotism they ran into that one time where they were only saved because Lennier had programmed the White Star to automaticallyescape of he stopped pressing a specific button for long enough. Was Lyta scanning for that? If so, it might be that the Shadows (or someone in their employ) can hijack a telepathic connection. (I think there's somewhere that suggests that, with training, a non-telepath human can foil a casual scan, so it's not entirely implausible that the Shadows have something at Z'ha'dum to defend against telepathy, but that whatever it is, it's not something they can deploy en masse.

Also

Spoiler

Show

In the upcoming episode 0407 Epiphanies, Lyta sends a telepathic signal that causes Z'ha'dum to be destroyed. It's unlikely the Drakh would have destroyed the planet on the mere word of a completely unknown person, not to mention that they could easily have fought off a single ship, so it is more likely to be an automated system activated by telepathy. There's no reason for the planet to have a telepathically activated system for self-destruction if the Shadows weren't able to turn it on (and even more importantly, turn it off again) themselves.

Spoiler: Season 4, Episode 7, "Epiphanies"

Show

Whose to say it was a telepathic REQUEST? Things like the "pain" self-defense technique and Psi Corp's penchant for reprogramming people suggest that telepathy can be more than communication. The Shadows use living beings as CPUs, so I figure Lyta found the mind(s) responsible for running the generators or the superweapons or whatever and essentially cast "Dominate Monster", forcing them to generate a planet-shattering kaboom.

[Morgaln]

That assumes that what the Great Machine was doing was telepathic. Though there was also whatever weird hypnotism they ran into that one time where they were only saved because Lennier had programmed the White Star to automaticallyescape of he stopped pressing a specific button for long enough. Was Lyta scanning for that? If so, it might be that the Shadows (or someone in their employ) can hijack a telepathic connection. (I think there's somewhere that suggests that, with training, a non-telepath human can foil a casual scan, so it's not entirely implausible that the Shadows have something at Z'ha'dum to defend against telepathy, but that whatever it is, it's not something they can deploy en masse.

It's been a while since I saw the episode so I might misremember, but wasn't Draal also commenting that Ivanova was doing things with the machine that shouldn't be possible? I put that down to her being a latent telepath and thus connected the two instances, i. e. her telepathy was what attracted the attention of the Shadows in the first place. But you're right that there are a lot of assumptions on my part here.

Spoiler: Season 4, Episode 7, "Epiphanies"

Show

Whose to say it was a telepathic REQUEST? Things like the "pain" self-defense technique and Psi Corp's penchant for reprogramming people suggest that telepathy can be more than communication. The Shadows use living beings as CPUs, so I figure Lyta found the mind(s) responsible for running the generators or the superweapons or whatever and essentially cast "Dominate Monster", forcing them to generate a planet-shattering kaboom.

Spoiler: Season 4, Episode 7, "Epiphanies"

Show

It would seem weird to me that all it would have required to eliminate the Shadows would have been a single rogue Vorlon deciding to fly past Z'ha'dum and send a telepathic command that blows up the planet. There must have been some kind of defense system that would have prevented that, which apparently was no longer there once the Shadows where gone. It makes no sense for the Shadows to switch that defense off but leave the planet whole when they left, so the logical assumption to me is that the Shadows themselves were that defense system.

[Yora]

S4E7: Epiphanies

Bester is getting instructed by his superior in PsiCorp to get rid of Babylon 5. The president had already tried taking it by force and they now have more allies than ever before. So instead they now try something more sneaky.

Londo gets ready to travel back to Babylon 5. Before he leaves he tells Cartagia's demented old prime minister that the Centauri leadership has decided not to select a new emperor right now and instead they have chosen him to be the regent in the meantime.

Franklin is treating G'Kar's wounds and thinks he might be able to give him an implant to replace his lost eye.

Garibaldi keeps spacing out thinking about his vague memories of being imprisoned. He's getting a message on his computer that consists only of colorful swirls and he stares into the image for a while before he tells the computer to delete the message. He then goes to see Sherridan, Ivanova, and Franklin to tell them that he's quitting his job because he has had enough with fighting these great wars he doesn't understand. Somewhat strangely, the others all try to convince him not to, but he tells them he just thought it would be nice to tell them all in person, but he's not going to do this anymore. Instead he's thinking about doing private investigation work for missing people or valuables that got lost during the Shadow War.

Londo and G'Kar run into each other on the street and neither of them really wants to talk to each other. After thinking for a moment Londo decides to go over to him anyway, and G'Kar merely says that now all the business between them is done and he hopes they are never going to have to deal with each other again.

Bester arrives on the station and is not happy that Lyta is monitoring the meeting with Sherridan. Bester spills the beans that the president is worried about having lost the support of the Shadows and wants to take out Babylon 5 before Sherridan is organizing the human rebels to attack Earth. But he will only share the full details of the plan that he knows if they all go to Zahadum to search for Shadow technology that could help saving the telepaths that were put in stasis to be put into Shadow ships. Sherridan agrees, and Bester tells then that an EarthForce fighter squadron is blockading the nearest jumpgate leading to Babylon 5, and that PsiCorps has been ordered to destroy it and make it look like an attack by Babylon 5's fighters.
While they are talking he does start peeking into some minds a little bit and gets a surprisingly hard kick from Lyta.

The PsiCorps ship reaches the blockade and launches its hidden fighters, and Ivanova arrives with some fighters just in time to save the EarthForce squadron, which greatly confuses their commander.

Sherridan, Delenn, and Bester arrive at Zahadum and see a convoy of unknown alien ships just making the jump to hyperspace. Lyta can't sense any living things on the planet, which makes Bester think they can just go down and look around unbothered. But Sherridan thinks he knows how the Shadows are thinking and has the ship turn around and get away as fast as possible. They just make it out before the planet explodes behind them.

Before Bester return to Earth, he goes to the stasis storage to see his frozen girlfriend. While he's alone he's pondering how he sacrificed six of his own men trying to help her and it all being for nothing.

Sherridan goes to Lyta's quarters and tells her he suspects she telepathically triggered an alarm on Zahadum about Vorlons trying to land on the planet, which caused the servants that were left behind to flee and blow it up. Lyta implies that she did it, but isn't really sure why, though partly just to spite Bester. There's nothing Sherridan can do about it, but he warns her if she messes with his plans like this again, he can simply have her send to PsiCorps.

Ivanova thinks it's probably best that Zahadum is destroyed and the technology of the Shadows lost, and their remaining servants lost their main base. Though Sherridan wonders where they would be going now.
And meanwhile on Centauri Prime, the new regent has frightening dreams and thinks he has an alien eye growing on his neck.

--

This episode does have a good number of really pretty good character scenes that I think do contribute quite a bit to the show without really being much plot specific. But I feel like this episode also feels a lot more focused and back to form after the muddled rush of the previous ones. I also feel like we're setting up new potentially interesting plot lines with Lyta, Garibaldi, and Bester.

When Garibaldi says he doesn't really understand what's going on anymore, I realized he didn't really have a meaningful role for really quite some time now. If we don't count S3E19 Grey 17 Is Missing, the last major appearance he had was S3E15 Interludes and Examinations when he tied make Franklin become aware of how bad his drug problem is. My memory of the rest of the season isn't very good, but I am actually quite looking forward to see how he will be doing from here on.

Overall I quite liked it, though it's nothing special by itself.

[Grey Watcher]

It's been a while since I saw the episode so I might misremember, but wasn't Draal also commenting that Ivanova was doing things with the machine that shouldn't be possible? I put that down to her being a latent telepath and thus connected the two instances, i. e. her telepathy was what attracted the attention of the Shadows in the first place. But you're right that there are a lot of assumptions on my part here.

Spoiler: Season 4, Episode 7, "Epiphanies"

Show

It would seem weird to me that all it would have required to eliminate the Shadows would have been a single rogue Vorlon deciding to fly past Z'ha'dum and send a telepathic command that blows up the planet. There must have been some kind of defense system that would have prevented that, which apparently was no longer there once the Shadows where gone. It makes no sense for the Shadows to switch that defense off but leave the planet whole when they left, so the logical assumption to me is that the Shadows themselves were that defense system.

Spoiler: Season 4, Episode 7, "Epiphanies"

Show

I get the distinct impression that part of becoming a Shadow CPU is that you gain some kind of mental compulsion to obey the Shadows. And if some of the dialogue surrounding Anna Sheridan is to be believed, it happens once you've been plugged in, which isn't telepathic, since there's a literal wire directly into your brain at that point. So if a telepath tries to convince a Shadow generator to go kaboom, any given Shadow on site can countermand that order immediately. But when there suddenly are no Shadows anymore....

Granted, that still doesn't explain the Great Machine incident or the trap that the Z'ha'dum rescue mission almost succumbs to. It's a bit confusing, because on most occasions, all things Vorlon, including (sometimes especially) telepathy, are portrayed as an anathema to the Shadows: Anna is visibly uncomfortable on a ship that's merely partially based on Vorlon tech, Justin gets visibly agitated by the question "Who are you?" even though it's clear from context that Sheridan is just asking a prosaic "identify yourself" and not the deep-unanwerable question the Vorlons are so fond of. Other times, they seem to display abilities that seem telepathic themselves, despite the lack of it being repeatedly called out as their Achilles' heel.

Like I said, I think most of the instances can be made to fit together by saying that at least some of the Shadows themselves (though apparently not their servants, their tech, or anything else) have been trained to deal with telepathic attacks, but it seems to be something difficult enough that they can only really use it to defend their homeworld. Or maybe, like the Vorlons, they've just become super, super gunshy about putting any of themselves in any danger.

Spoiler: Alternate timelines, up to the aforementioned episode

Show

Though really, that particular plot point would've made a bit more sense with Talia's version of the arc instead of Lyta's. If the telepath superweapon were created by something not directly associated with the Vorlons (ie Jason Ironheart), then it makes sense why they've never used a Super Telepath to attack Z'ha'dum. Talia would literally have been the first one ever (or at least the first one since the Shadows and Vorlons started fighting each other), and they weren't about to risk a unique and irreplaceable asset, especially since "Kill the Shadows" isn't the primary objective anyway.

(I inferred, by the way, from all of this that the various Shadow ships and scouts and such we generally see don't have any actual Shadows aboard them. The only "crew" is the CPU-person in the middle, who could be anyone from any sentient species.)