The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

[Yora]

Here's the thing. Rebels takes place 5 years after Solo. And in Rebels Maul had been living as basically a hobo for years. No power, no organization and on the run from Vader and the inquisitors. Hell it was implied he'd been like this since the Empire's rise to power.

Now they're saying Oh no he was the head of this powerful and rather public criminal syndicate. Trust me, if he had been Vader would have killed him off super fast.

Disney has well established that there is no such thing as continuity in their universe.

[Rakaydos]

Here's the thing. Rebels takes place 5 years after Solo. And in Rebels Maul had been living as basically a hobo for years. No power, no organization and on the run from Vader and the inquisitors. Hell it was implied he'd been like this since the Empire's rise to power.

Now they're saying Oh no he was the head of this powerful and rather public criminal syndicate. Trust me, if he had been Vader would have killed him off super fast.

No need for a retcon- Let Vader dismantle his organization one to two years after solo, and Maul can still be in exile for years before rebels rolls around.

[Peelee]

No need for a retcon- Let Vader dismantle his organization one to two years after solo, and Maul can still be in exile for years before rebels rolls around.

Was gonna say this exact thing. Maul was trying his hand at criminal empire building in TCW, so it fits with his past actiona. There is a decent gap between Solo and Rebels. Nothing is really retconned yet at all. And I'll be betting the new TCW season will have Maul secceeding quite a bit.

[Devonix]

Was gonna say this exact thing. Maul was trying his hand at criminal empire building in TCW, so it fits with his past actiona. There is a decent gap between Solo and Rebels. Nothing is really retconned yet at all. And I'll be betting the new TCW season will have Maul secceeding quite a bit.

Here's the thing. Rebels establishes the Inquisitors. And how they will basically find force users, and people in hiding almost anywhere in the galaxy. Maul would be high on their list, and yet he's just allowed to go and set up this sprawling empire, run it for what would need to be at least several years. And if there were plans to have Maul take a more active role in later movies, it shortens the gap even further between that and rebels.

Years usually doesn't mean two years. So give it 3 at most to be generous that he was on Malchior. That leaves 2 years between Solo and Rebels to work with.

[Fyraltari]

Here's the thing. Rebels establishes the Inquisitors. And how they will basically find force users, and people in hiding almost anywhere in the galaxy. Maul would be high on their list, and yet he's just allowed to go and set up this sprawling empire, run it for what would need to be at least several years.

Rebels also establishes that the Inquisitors really aren’t up to the challenge of fighting Maul. His saber in both Rebels and Solo is an Inquisitor’s with a broken hilt, the Ninth Brother who has hunted him for a while is clearly afraid of him and kills the Seventh Sister without any noticeable effort. Add to that that Ashoka despite never making it to Jedi Knight was able to keep the Seventh Sister and Fifth Brother at the same time at bay by her lonesome and it really looks like the Inquisitors may be threats to random untrained force-sensitive and padawans who lucked out of Order 66 but not a rogue Sith Lord.

Also, if memory serves, Rebels doesn’t establish that Maul had been stranded on Malachor for years, that was simply the logical assumption given that he seemed to have been a non-entity in the Empire so far. Hell, thinking about it the notion of him staying there for years raises te question of what exactly he ate since the planet has no life left.

[AMX]

Hmm, wasn't the last we heard of Maul in Clone Wars that Palpatine had "plans for him?"

[Fyraltari]

Hmm, wasn't the last we heard of Maul in Clone Wars that Palpatine had "plans for him?"

Yup but the arc that was planned for him (spoiler: he escapes) happened in the comic Son of Dathomir I wonder if they’ll reverse-adapt it for the incoming season.

[Dire_Flumph]

Here's the thing. Rebels establishes the Inquisitors. And how they will basically find force users, and people in hiding almost anywhere in the galaxy. Maul would be high on their list, and yet he's just allowed to go and set up this sprawling empire, run it for what would need to be at least several years. And if there were plans to have Maul take a more active role in later movies, it shortens the gap even further between that and rebels.

Years usually doesn't mean two years. So give it 3 at most to be generous that he was on Malchior. That leaves 2 years between Solo and Rebels to work with.

Why would anyone in the Empire know Maul was head of Crimson Dawn? Dryden Vos was serving as a very public head for just that reason. And mentions of the "syndicates" indicate there are plenty of gangs like Crimson Dawn out there, so why would the Empire single this one out in the first place?

Also, Maul is pretty clearly lying in "Twilight of the Apprentice". A big clue for that is that he repeats some of Yoda's dialogue to Luke in ESB almost word for word. He's pretending to be a frail old man when later on he is anything but. I wouldn't take his word that he's been there for years at anything like face value. It would fit just fine to say that the Empire had dismantled Crimson Dawn weeks before "Twilight of the Apprentice" and Maul fled to Malachor desperately hunting a more direct means of power and revenge with the Inquisitors following.

[Devonix]

Why would anyone in the Empire know Maul was head of Crimson Dawn? Dryden Vos was serving as a very public head for just that reason. And mentions of the "syndicates" indicate there are plenty of gangs like Crimson Dawn out there, so why would the Empire single this one out in the first place?

Also, Maul is pretty clearly lying in "Twilight of the Apprentice". A big clue for that is that he repeats some of Yoda's dialogue to Luke in ESB almost word for word. He's pretending to be a frail old man when later on he is anything but. I wouldn't take his word that he's been there for years at anything like face value. It would fit just fine to say that the Empire had dismantled Crimson Dawn weeks before "Twilight of the Apprentice" and Maul fled to Malachor desperately hunting a more direct means of power and revenge with the Inquisitors following.

Characters in stories usually lie about motives, but not details like that. Him saying he's been there for years, isn't information for Ezra. He's telling that to the audience so that WE know what he's been up to.

Saying he's been there for years means nothing to Ezra, so the info isn't for him.

[Fyraltari]

I think Maul isn’t lying about his physical state. Yoda also uses a cane most of the time. It seems to me that it’s possible to draw on the Force to temporarily boost one’s physical attributes, which is how older Force-wielders manage to keep up with the younger generations. But it must be impractical to do it constantly (maybe it needs focus ?) so they reserve it for combat and other high-stakes situations.

[Rakaydos]

[citation needed]

The Mandalorian is their flagship show, but that's mostly because it's a live-action Star Wars show that was pumped up to help people get invested in Disney+. Even then, it gets a fraction of the viewership that the movies do, and will continue to. If you have any statements from Disney saying anything like what you're claiming on their behalf, I'm all ears.

I take it as a given from their removal of levels of canon. If the TV shows are just as canon as the movies, that means the movies, by default, have to include details introduced in TV shows.

[Fyraltari]

I take it as a given from their removal of levels of canon. If the TV shows are just as canon as the movies, that means the movies, by default, have to include details introduced in TV shows.

That doesn’t mean the movies will assume people have watched the shows. Rogue One had Saw Guerrera in it but re-introduced him.

In the same way, the Witcher games are supposed to take place in the same continuity as the books but they had Geralt an amnesiac so that they could explain everything to the people who haven’t read the books because they knew most of their customers (and I do mean most) have not.

[Dire_Flumph]

Characters in stories usually lie about motives, but not details like that. Him saying he's been there for years, isn't information for Ezra. He's telling that to the audience so that WE know what he's been up to.

Saying he's been there for years means nothing to Ezra, so the info isn't for him.

It is info for Ezra. He sees that he has force potential (and he's swinging a lightsaber), but not a Jedi. The first thing he does is set himself up as a source of information to get Ezra to rely on him and trust him. "Hey, I'm the head of this huge criminal syndicate that just got dismantled" doesn't fit that goal. "I've been here a long time" does. It implies he has information about the place Ezra needs. Maul is looking for revenge. All he knows to achieve that goal is to amass power. He tried it in the form of a syndicate, which wasn't enough. He's looking now for Force-related power strong enough to face Sidious on his own terms. And here, dropped in his lap is another apprentice he can use as a weapon. So he lies, with generalities. And we know a lot of what he tells Ezra is lies, he lies about a past we as viewers know he has. Watch when Ezra asks if he's a Jedi. He's clearly having to come up with a story on the spot, and trying to keep as many specifics as possible out of it. Given how much we know he's lying about, taking his word that he's been on Malachor for years seems like a stretch.

I think Maul isn’t lying about his physical state. Yoda also uses a cane most of the time. It seems to me that it’s possible to draw on the Force to temporarily boost one’s physical attributes, which is how older Force-wielders manage to keep up with the younger generations. But it must be impractical to do it constantly (maybe it needs focus ?) so they reserve it for combat and other high-stakes situations.

Once he drops the cane, he drops the act completely, he never goes back to it. Ever. In any episode we seem him in later. Yoda has a short fight in AotC then immediately goes back to the cane. It's pretty clearly an act. I'm frail, I'm helpless, I'm no threat. But I have knowledge that you need. Lure them in, get them to trust.

Edit: And I even missed the obvious until right now. He's got mechanical freakin' legs! What the heck does he need a cane for?

[Peelee]

That doesn’t mean the movies will assume people have watched the shows. Rogue One had Saw Guerrera in it but re-introduced him.

In the same way, the Witcher games are supposed to take place in the same continuity as the books but they had Geralt an amnesiac so that they could explain everything to the people who haven’t read the books because they knew most of their customers (and I do mean most) have not.

Indeed. Or, similarly, Start of Darkness and OtOoPCs are canon but the author writes without needing those for context as the main source of exposure to OotS is the online comic.

Under your proposal, a movie could showcase information that occurred in a comic book with no explanation or exposition and nobody should have a problem with it. Regardless of how reasonable that idea is, the fact that people do have a problem with Maul shows that it's patently false.

It is info for Ezra. He sees that he has force potential (and he's swinging a lightsaber), but not a Jedi. The first thing he does is set himself up as a source of information to get Ezra to rely on him and trust him. "Hey, I'm the head of this huge criminal syndicate that just got dismantled" doesn't fit that goal. "I've been here a long time" does. It implies he has information about the place Ezra needs. Maul is looking for revenge. All he knows to achieve that goal is to amass power. He tried it in the form of a syndicate, which wasn't enough. He's looking now for Force-related power strong enough to face Sidious on his own terms. And here, dropped in his lap is another apprentice he can use as a weapon. So he lies, with generalities. And we know a lot of what he tells Ezra is lies, he lies about a past we as viewers know he has. Watch when Ezra asks if he's a Jedi. He's clearly having to come up with a story on the spot, and trying to keep as many specifics as possible out of it. Given how much we know he's lying about, taking his word that he's been on Malachor for years seems like a stretch.

Indeed. I don't believe at all he was there for so long, and the entire speech is for Ezra's benefit. It disarms Ezra.

[Rakaydos]

Under your proposal, a movie could showcase information that occurred in a comic book with no explanation or exposition and nobody should have a problem with it. Regardless of how reasonable that idea is, the fact that people do have a problem with Maul shows that it's patently false.

People have a problem with Maul because they are still operating under George Lucas's "Movies are special" attitude. Ignore the context of TPM, and it's a glowsword wielding crimelord, who's screaming "watch my other stuff!" If you include TPM, you have to include Clone Wars.

[Forum Explorer]

People have a problem with Maul because they are still operating under George Lucas's "Movies are special" attitude. Ignore the context of TPM, and it's a glowsword wielding crimelord, who's screaming "watch my other stuff!" If you include TPM, you have to include Clone Wars.

They have a problem with Maul not because movies are special but because he died in TPM, and unless you watched the Clone Wars, you have no reason to think otherwise.

[Rakaydos]

They have a problem with Maul not because movies are special but because he died in TPM, and unless you watched the Clone Wars, you have no reason to think otherwise.

That's exactly what I mean by the "movies are special" attitude.

[Saph]

So just out of curiosity, and by request, I'm going to watch the opening crawl.

Saph, if you haven't already seen Deinekes' title crawl, I found a recreation so you can experience it thematically. A minute and a half, if you choose.

Spoiler: This way you can rage quit after the title crawl by default!

Show

• 'The dead speak'. What. They're bringing Palpatine back from the dead? Why? And why would he announce himself via galaxy-wide radio broadcast?
• Leia and Rey get capitalised names. Poe and Finn don't, almost as if they don't matter, but I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
• And Kylo's 'raging in search' of the Emperor. Pfft! This guy lost a duel to Rey the first time she ever picked up a lightsaber, and he's going to destroy the Emperor?

Notable is what isn't in there. No explanation for how the Resistance has built itself back up again from the <10 people it had at the end of TLJ. No explanation of what's happened to the Republic (that's apparently just been completely forgotten about by this point). And no consequences for the long series of crushing defeats the supposedly diabolical First Order has suffered in every one of their on-screen appearances.

Basically, the movie's setting up to ignore 90% of what's come before it, in favour of kicking off some out-of-the-blue long-ass quest that'll revolve around Rey and Kylo, with Leia in a supporting role. Which'll go on for more than two bloody hours before they finally kill Palpatine, which'll be presented as a great victory despite the fact that they're just re-doing what Return of the Jedi did already.

Of course, this raises the obvious question . . . now that we've established that Palpatine is Space Dracula and can come back from the dead, why is killing him even a victory any more? What's stopping him from just coming back yet again for Palpatine III: Revenge of the Revenge of the Revenge of the Sith? I'm sure people will claim that this no, he's really actually dead this time, but the LAST time Palpatine got killed, he was thrown down a 1000-foot drop into a nuclear reactor and then blown up in a giant explosion. So if that didn't kill him, why should we believe that this will?

Luckily, answering that particular question is not my problem.

[dancrilis]

People have a problem with Maul because they are still operating under George Lucas's "Movies are special" attitude.

It is not really a 'movies are special' attitude it is 'how to tell a story' attitude.

A company cannot reasonable expect every viewer to follow every medium - even TV shows frequently have a 'previously on' section when they are bring something back that people might not remember clearly and that is within not just the same medium but the same show. Novels frequently have exposition in a new book in the series to remind you who people are and what the state of play of the story is.

Now I think Maul's reveal is not that bad, something to be explained on screen in a future movie - but I think Disney might be running this more in line with 'how is he back? eh who cares he is kindof cool and that is all that matters'.

[Forum Explorer]

That's exactly what I mean by the "movies are special" attitude.

The question would be why would you expect me (as a hypothetical person who hasn't seen the Clone Wars cartoon) to know that Maul is alive? It's a large cartoon and Maul being alive is a pretty minor plot point all things considered. And Solo is in no way billed as a sequel to the Clone Wars. For that matter the Clone Wars is billed as the stuff that happens between Episodes 2 and 3. There is no expectation on the cartoon that seeing it is necessary to understand what happens in a later movie.

[dancrilis]

So if that didn't kill him, why should we believe that this will?

You shouldn't - ignoring everything else 'The Last Jedi' introduced force illusions, as such there is nothing that we have seen in any Star Wars movie which we can be sure actually happened.

My personal version is that Palpatine got bored of being Emporer and so faked his own death and has decided to spead his time trolling the galaxy and winding everyone up - which he can do easilly with force abilities on galactic scale and illusions everywhere.
I look forward to Episode X: Palpatine - Troll God.
A story where everyone learns they just have to put up with the fact that at any moment a powerful being could just start messing with them for no reason other then the laughs.

I like that slightly more then my backup version where Rey is still imprisoned from The Force Awakens (from before she suddenly had her powers) and everything that has happened since is all in her mind.

[GloatingSwine]

[LIST][*]'The dead speak'. What. They're bringing Palpatine back from the dead? Why? And why would he announce himself via galaxy-wide radio broadcast?

It wasn't even galaxy-wide.

He did it in Fortnite.

No, really.

A company cannot reasonable expect every viewer to follow every medium - even TV shows frequently have a 'previously on' section when they are bring something back that people might not remember clearly and that is within not just the same medium but the same show. Novels frequently have exposition in a new book in the series to remind you who people are and what the state of play of the story is.

TV shows frequently have a "previously on" section for things that happened last week...

[Rakaydos]

The question would be why would you expect me (as a hypothetical person who hasn't seen the Clone Wars cartoon) to know that Maul is alive? It's a large cartoon and Maul being alive is a pretty minor plot point all things considered. And Solo is in no way billed as a sequel to the Clone Wars. For that matter the Clone Wars is billed as the stuff that happens between Episodes 2 and 3. There is no expectation on the cartoon that seeing it is necessary to understand what happens in a later movie.

Maul being the crime lord is in no way critical to the plot of Solo. If you have further questions about his survival, you're supposed to use it as motivation to find an episode guide (essential material for watching clone wars) and watching Maul's arcs.

[Peelee]

People have a problem with Maul because they are still operating under George Lucas's "Movies are special" attitude.

No. The vast majority of people never even knew about different levels of canon, much less cared. The movies were special because they were all most people saw. That is still the case. It has nothing to do with different levels of canon.

[Rakaydos]

No. The vast majority of people never even knew about different levels of canon, much less cared. The movies were special because they were all most people saw. That is still the case. It has nothing to do with different levels of canon.

I didn't say anything about levels of canon, I said the viewers considered the movies special. Which, if they arnt willing to look at alternative media for the explanations, is a pretty obvous statement.

[Peelee]

I didn't say anything about levels of canon, I said the viewers considered the movies special.

In which case they still do. The viewers consider the movies as "the things we see" and the books, comics, cartoons, etc as "the things we don't." That hasn't changed. Disney doesn't pump nearly as much money into advertising TCW as they do into TROS, so even by your own argument Disney does as well.

People treat the movies as movies. You call it that "special" and then insist Disney doesn't see the movies as movies, so far as I can tell.

[Narkis]

'The dead speak'. What. They're bringing Palpatine back from the dead? Why? And why would he announce himself via galaxy-wide radio broadcast?

Also, here's Palpatine's message, available exclusively through Fortnite^TM!

[Hopeless]

I actually hoped after watching Solo they'd film a sequel leading to Han helping his old girlfriend and Maul locate a lost treasure on Malachor.
Maul would try to double cross the others eventually leading to Han stranding him there.

Yes well it was an idea!

[Sapphire Guard]

Favourite new headcanon: In universe, he made the broadcast in the GFFA equivalent of Fortnite.

[Fyraltari]

It wasn't even galaxy-wide.

He did it in Fortnite.

No, really.

Fortnite has galaxy-wide reach. That's the only explanation that makes sense. Hyes.