Dread Necromancer

[Doresain]

so i have plans of building a dread necro for the next game im playing in (which i assume is eberron, according to what my buddy says)...i have a rough idea as for what feats to take (tomb-tainted soul if i plan to stay amongst the living, or corpsecrafter feats if i plan to go necropolitan) as well as maxing out disguise and bluff...

the reason for maxing out disguise and bluff? i plan on lying to the party about what my character really is, for as long as possible...in short, what should i pretend to be? im probably going to be playing a human, simply for the bonus feat and skill points...i know it will be hard to pass off all the death related spells, but im sure i can find a way to disguise that as well...

on another, minor note, what should i take as my martial weapon proficiency? i dont really plan on trying to min/max this character, so just a general idea for a fun weapon would be welcome

[ZeroNumerous]

Martial Weapon: Ranseur, Guisarme, whatever has reach.

Go Necropolitan and PrC out of the class at level 8 or so. It's definitely not something you take to 20. The end cap is most definitely not worth the dead levels you have to trudge through.

Pretend to be a living human, so you have to do fewer bluff checks. After all, the chance for a Nat-1 versus someone's nat-15 or 20 is there, so you really don't want to run the risk of ruining your web of lies.

Death Spells: Claim you're a wizard, or a sorcerer. Problem solved.

[Doresain]

yeah im thinking about Tainted Scholar for the PrC, that way when i go for necropolitan taint wont eventually kill me/make me insane

everything else you stated was kind of a given...never thought of reach weapons for some reason though...im kinda screwed if we get a pally in the group, but eberron brought in some nifty items that can actually disguise you as another alignment so i shouldnt have many problems there...

one other question...good corpsecrafter/undead overlord-type character feats i should take

[KillianHawkeye]

Take proficiency in the rapier and pretend to be a bard. Sing happy songs, constantly. Give puppies to small children and litter the slums with gold coins. No one will ever suspect this jovial bard is really a gloomy necromancer!

[slexlollar89]

Scythe... all the way.

What's more cool/cliche than a master of death with a scythe?

[ZeroNumerous]

yeah im thinking about Tainted Scholar for the PrC, that way when i go for necropolitan taint wont eventually kill me/make me insane

You should already be a necropolitan by 3rd level. Only become one at third level. This way, you lose two levels and become a 1st level Dread Necro with 500 XP. You'll regain the XP quick when the rest of your party is 3rd level. Further, talk to your DM about playing the character. I'm fairly certain he doesn't want intra-party conflict, so he should be able to work something out with any paladin/clerics of good gods.

The reach weapon is intended for keeping the enemy away from you. It gets particularly bad when you become a Necropolitan and lose that precious con modifier. Try talking to your DM and starting the game as a Necropolitan. If you're using Point Buy, then you can dump CON if you start off as a Necropolitan.

Corpsecrafter Feats: My suggestion is to pick up Destructive Retribution and, of course, the basic Corpsecrafter feat. That way, not only do your undead heal one another and hurt your enemy when they die.. They also start with a +8 bonus to STR and CON when you hit 8th level. Ontop of 4 HP per HD.

Tainted Scholar: Really kinda sucks. Seriously. It does. My suggestion is to pick up Arcane Preparation and Cooperative Spell then go into Mage of the Arcane Order. You'll gain some sorely needed flexibility in your spell list.

[Nebo_]

i dont really plan on trying to min/max this character, so just a general idea for a fun weapon would be welcome

yeah im thinking about Tainted Scholar for the PrC, that way when i go for necropolitan taint wont eventually kill me/make me insane

Are you aware that necropolitan tainted scholar is one of the most broken things in D&D? That said, if it's an Eberron game, consider playing an Aeranal elf, they have a weird undead thing going. See if you can convince the DM to let you play a postitive energy version.

[vegetalss4]

maybe do a Tainted Scholar
but an undead Tainted Scholar rule vulentary fail your will save ageinst depravity and get exstreme casting
oh and Nebo if he wanted positive energy he would not have talked about tomp tainted soul

[ZeroNumerous]

Are you aware that necropolitan tainted scholar is one of the most broken things in D&D? That said, if it's an Eberron game, consider playing an Aeranal elf, they have a weird undead thing going. See if you can convince the DM to let you play a postitive energy version.

Not really. Without the taint rules, it becomes very very mild. Disappointingly mild.

Aeranal Elf: Nah. Dread Necromancers must be evil and channel negative energy. Further, without negative energy he loses the primary use of Dread Necromancer(animate dead).

[Nebo_]

oh and Nebo if he wanted positive energy he would not have talked about tomp tainted soul

I was pointing out one of his options, whether he uses it is completely up to him.

Not really. Without the taint rules, it becomes very very mild. Disappointingly mild.

Aeranal Elf: Nah. Dread Necromancers must be evil and channel negative energy. Further, without negative energy he loses the primary use of Dread Necromancer(animate dead).

He said something about taking necropolitan to avoid the negative effects of taint, thus I assume he's using taint. Aeranal Elves use positive energy to make deathless, just switch that out for undead and you've got yourself a class.

[jameswilliamogle]

Hope this helps:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=759515

Scythe is just cool on a dread necro, but ranged weapons (longbow, etc) will keep you out of harms way at higher levels.

The Corpsecrafter line doesn't, RAW, affect anything you do until you get Animate Dead at 8th (it affects only undead created w/ Necromancy spells... ie, summoned undead aren't affected).

If Chain Spell is allowed to be applied to ray spells (its fuzzy, RAW) then this is pretty nice (Chained Ray of Enfeeblements, for example).

Anyways, check that link above; I spent a lot of time playing a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer, and a lot of time writing the majority of that handbook.

[Jack Mann]

Not really. Without the taint rules, it becomes very very mild. Disappointingly mild.

Aeranal Elf: Nah. Dread Necromancers must be evil and channel negative energy. Further, without negative energy he loses the primary use of Dread Necromancer(animate dead).

Everytime he casts a spell, he makes a will save or takes on another point of depravity. He can voluntarily fail this save. Since it has no ill effects, he can keep accumulating depravity. He bases his bonus spells on depravity.

If he takes a single level of corrupt avenger (normally not worth it) he can also increase his corruption score, which he bases his spell DCs on.

Given time, he can get both of these up to arbitrarily high levels, giving him an absurd number of spells per day and spell DCs that most gods couldn't make.

EDIT: Misread your post. But as has been said, he's mentioned the taint rules. Besides, you can't play tainted scholar without the taint rules, since one of the prerequisites is moderate or greater depravity.

[jameswilliamogle]

I've seen some debate on whether Undead can increase their Taint Score. HoH, the last source for Taint, basically says Undead automatically have a Taint Score set at 1/2 Cha +1. It seems like a continuous set effect. Casting Taint spells may or may not increase it... depends on your DM, I think.

The set in stone version for undead isn't as bad at destroying games as the incrementally increasing version.

[Ramza00]

Dread Necromancer is so a class you take 20 levels in. This is because the 8th lvl ability which bases the number of undead you have access to is based off your class level and not your caster level.

Saying lvl 8-20 is dead levels is like saying every level of druid where you don't get a new wildshape type you thus gain nothing. In reality the increase in hd cap is also an important factor.

Furthermore with a high charisma, a few ranks, and a UMD compontence item it is quite easy to UMD a runestaff, since you only need to simulate having that spell on your list and that is a simple DC20 check. Spell Variety+High level slots wins D&D, you don't need to throw in prcs, and you have plenty of undead with dread necro.

[brian c]

Dread Necromancer is so a class you take 20 levels in. This is because the 8th lvl ability which bases the number of undead you have access to is based off your class level and not your caster level.

Saying lvl 8-20 is dead levels is like saying every level of druid where you don't get a new wildshape type you thus gain nothing. In reality the increase in hd cap is also an important factor.

Furthermore with a high charisma, a few ranks, and a UMD compontence item it is quite easy to UMD a runestaff, since you only need to simulate having that spell on your list and that is a simple DC20 check. Spell Variety+High level slots wins D&D, you don't need to throw in prcs, and you have plenty of undead with dread necro.

I second this. Dread Necro all the way.

Also, see if you can get a deal from your DM. Dread necros already have a class ability that is almost the same as what the Corpsecrafter feat gives, and since they're both enhancement bonuses it doesn't stack. Point this out and maybe your DM will agree that you don't have to take Corpsecrafter (treat the Dread Necro ability as a virtual feat for prereq).

Most important thing to say about a Dread Necro: Mass inflict spells are your friends. With Tomb-Tainted soul, heal yourself, heal your minions and hurt your enemies all at once. Empowered or Maximized could be worth it too.

[jameswilliamogle]

I second this. Dread Necro all the way.

Also, see if you can get a deal from your DM. Dread necros already have a class ability that is almost the same as what the Corpsecrafter feat gives, and since they're both enhancement bonuses it doesn't stack. Point this out and maybe your DM will agree that you don't have to take Corpsecrafter (treat the Dread Necro ability as a virtual feat for prereq).

Most important thing to say about a Dread Necro: Mass inflict spells are your friends. With Tomb-Tainted soul, heal yourself, heal your minions and hurt your enemies all at once. Empowered or Maximized could be worth it too.

The HP bonus still stacks; it isn't named. I think its worth it, but not until 9th level.

[Dausuul]

so i have plans of building a dread necro for the next game im playing in (which i assume is eberron, according to what my buddy says)...i have a rough idea as for what feats to take (tomb-tainted soul if i plan to stay amongst the living, or corpsecrafter feats if i plan to go necropolitan) as well as maxing out disguise and bluff...

the reason for maxing out disguise and bluff? i plan on lying to the party about what my character really is, for as long as possible...in short, what should i pretend to be? im probably going to be playing a human, simply for the bonus feat and skill points...i know it will be hard to pass off all the death related spells, but im sure i can find a way to disguise that as well...

on another, minor note, what should i take as my martial weapon proficiency? i dont really plan on trying to min/max this character, so just a general idea for a fun weapon would be welcome

If you're trying to conceal what you are, don't get Corpsecrafter feats. Walking around with a horde of undead is--pardon the pun--a dead giveaway. Go for Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy) and Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration instead, and pretend to be a sorceror specializing in necromantic debuffs. Which is, in fact, essentially what you are.

[jameswilliamogle]

There's a Skill Trick that allows you to disguise your spells.

Also, there's some tricks with Mind Jar to disguise your undead: basically, you Mind Jar your own undead, use a Hat of Disguise, your maxed out Disguise skill, and a Disguise kit, then disguise your undead to whatever you want, then cancel your Magic Jar. You use your maxed out Bluff skill to convince people that they took a vow of silence, and aren't too bright, either. I was getting Disguise checks around a +30 (+d20 the DM rolled) pretty early on (well, after I was animating stuff).

With my Kobold Necropolitan Dread Necromancer, I first disguised myself as a Gnome, and when I got a familiar, I picked a Quasit. For his Change Shape forms, I picked Wolf along w/ something I never used. Net result? I looked like a normal Gnome Druid complete with Wolf companion, but with very few druid-like spells. It was hard to keep that up when I was summoning Mummys and Shadows, though.

I also would make undead at night when everyone else was asleep (not having to sleep myself), and ordered them to first dig holes, then bury themselves. The idea was to use them for defense of country when and if they were needed (I was playing LN).

Later in the campaign, I got 2 Bebeliths, used Vile Death on them, and these totally ruled the rest of the game: by this point, the other players figured it out.

Oh, and the Dread Necromancer is SO animation based, that if you don't plan on using animation, you are probably going to be better off w/ a Necromancer Wizard taking the Focused Specialist variant.

Corpsecrafter is still worth it at higher level (the +2 HP / HD really good) even w/ disguised undead.

[brian c]

The HP bonus still stacks; it isn't named. I think its worth it, but not until 9th level.

Yeah, but the rest of the bonuses don't stack. The HP bonus alone isn't worth a feat.

If you're trying to conceal what you are, don't get Corpsecrafter feats. Walking around with a horde of undead is--pardon the pun--a dead giveaway. Go for Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy) and Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration instead, and pretend to be a sorceror specializing in necromantic debuffs. Which is, in fact, essentially what you are.

If that's the plan, then just be a sorceror. "Dread necromancer" is not an in-game concept (most likely).

[Dausuul]

If that's the plan, then just be a sorceror. "Dread necromancer" is not an in-game concept (most likely).

Depends on what you want to do with your character. The dread necro is a whole lot tougher than the sorc (better Hit Die, light armor, DR/magic and bludgeoning, and unlimited out-of-combat self-heal with Necropolitan or Tomb-Tainted Soul); can rebuke undead, and has the Charisma to make it stick; and has a wider array of debuffs than any sorceror. The down side is that you lose out on a sorceror's utility and buffing magic, your debuffs aren't very effective against non-living foes, and you don't get access to some potent save-or-lose spells like glitterdust.

Plus, there's your familiar. Sorcs get rats, hawks, toads, and such-like. Dread necros get ghostly visages. A ghostly visage familiar is scary as hell. Incorporeal familiar delivering touch spells? Free gaze attack? Immunity to mind-affecting magic? Yes please.

Finally, just because you don't have an army of shambling zombies doesn't mean you can't have undead minions. Rebuke yourself a few shadows. Much easier to conceal them, and they can suck an enemy's Strength dry in short order.

[....]

so i have plans of building a dread necro for the next game im playing in (which i assume is eberron, according to what my buddy says)...i have a rough idea as for what feats to take (tomb-tainted soul if i plan to stay amongst the living, or corpsecrafter feats if i plan to go necropolitan) as well as maxing out disguise and bluff...

the reason for maxing out disguise and bluff? i plan on lying to the party about what my character really is, for as long as possible...in short, what should i pretend to be? im probably going to be playing a human, simply for the bonus feat and skill points...i know it will be hard to pass off all the death related spells, but im sure i can find a way to disguise that as well...

on another, minor note, what should i take as my martial weapon proficiency? i dont really plan on trying to min/max this character, so just a general idea for a fun weapon would be welcome

Just claim to be a necromancer.

They don't have to be evil.

[StickMan]

What ever PRC it is that relates you to Demons in Heros of horror is nice if you want to have spells outside the Necromancy school. It's nice to be able to Fireball some times.

[ForzaFiori]

what books are Necropolitan, Tomb-Tainted Soul, and Corpsecrafter in?

[brian c]

what books are Necropolitan, Tomb-Tainted Soul, and Corpsecrafter in?

Everything undead-related is in Libris Mortis, except for some things (like the Dread Necro class itself) that are in Heroes or Horror. I think all three of the things you asked about are in Libris Mortis though

[Doresain]

If you're trying to conceal what you are, don't get Corpsecrafter feats. Walking around with a horde of undead is--pardon the pun--a dead giveaway. Go for Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy) and Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration instead, and pretend to be a sorceror specializing in necromantic debuffs. Which is, in fact, essentially what you are.

actually, i had plans of hiding my undead legions in bags of holding/portable holes...since they dont need to breath i can just toss them in there and save them for when i need them (in the case of mindless undead)...for sentient undead i can just disguise them, since i am taking the disguise skill after all...

really liked the idea of pretending to be a bard btw...lulz have been had

[brian c]

actually, i had plans of hiding my undead legions in bags of holding/portable holes...since they dont need to breath i can just toss them in there and save them for when i need them (in the case of mindless undead)...for sentient undead i can just disguise them, since i am taking the disguise skill after all...

really liked the idea of pretending to be a bard btw...lulz have been had

But how can you use your legions of undead if you're always hiding them? Your party members might notice that they won a fight because of the help of those skeletons jumping out of your backpack.

[Doresain]

this is in regards to hiding them from NPCs...hiding them from good-aligned PCs would be a problem though, might need to think that one through...

question: are there any rules on creating karrnath undead, and if so where can i find them?

[Leon]

this is in regards to hiding them from NPCs...hiding them from good-aligned PCs would be a problem though, might need to think that one through...

question: are there any rules on creating karrnath undead, and if so where can i find them?

Do tell if you find out

[Overlard]

really liked the idea of pretending to be a bard btw...lulz have been had

I did that with a warlock once. Had some human paragon levels which gave me perform as a class skill. For a while, the party were somewhat confused why I wasn't giving them bonuses to their attack roles, but spent a lot of rounds using my "wand of fiery ray".