Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[Peelee]

Probably because one of the more common house rules going back to OD&D is that you don't need to be holding hands to teleport. The game rules draw from Mary Poppins popping the kids into the chalk drawing, the game play more a transporter room from Trek.

That's a bit sad, a rather memorable scene from a game my friends and I were in was so memorable and worked so well mostly because the touching rule was not houseruled away.

That depends on what the thread's actual purpose is, I would think.

Speaking of, i think you were the one who remembered the potential wizard travel specialization that allowed more passengers, but I can't recall it to save my life. Any chance you do?

[Jasdoif]

Speaking of, i think you were the one who remembered the potential wizard travel specialization that allowed more passengers, but I can't recall it to save my life. Any chance you do?

The Wayfarer Guide prestige class in Complete Arcane gets one additional (Medium) target per class level for teleportation spells.

[Peelee]

The Wayfarer Guide prestige class in Complete Arcane gets one additional (Medium) target per class level for teleportation spells.

That's it! Thanks. PrC, not ACF, I thought I was wrong on that.

[b_jonas]

I agree that Durkon probably cast Wind Walk once more off-panel. He can do that because the spell takes only a round to cast and this wasn't in combat or some other urgent situation. He would prepare the spell twice because he knows that one casting isn't enough for the whole party. I would even say that he actually touched everyone, which is also free because they're not in combat, the comic just doesn't depict this because it would be messy to draw.

This explanation is harder to work for Shojo's wizard. He Teleported six party members twice on the same day. For that, he would need to cast Teleport six times. H would need to be at least a level 15 wizard to do that.

[MultitudeMan]

This explanation is harder to work for Shojo's wizard. He Teleported six party members twice on the same day. For that, he would need to cast Teleport six times. H would need to be at least a level 15 wizard to do that.

A Wizard 11 / Wayfarer Guide 2 could prepare Teleport at least 4 times a day, and transport up to 6 Medium creatures with each casting. I think this is more likely than Wizard 9 / Wayfarer Guide 3, as I don't think he had Enhanced Accuracy.

[Quartz]

With regard to the number of people affected by Wind Walk, a Bead of Karma grants +4 caster levels which would suffice if Wind Walk were cast at 14th level.

As for the touching, do we really need half a dozen panels showing Durkon touching everyone in turn?

[JumboWheat01]

As for the touching, do we really need half a dozen panels showing Durkon touching everyone in turn?

Only if we can get a good joke out of it. But I think we're beyond that particular level of humor.

[Peelee]

As for the touching, do we really need half a dozen panels showing Durkon touching everyone in turn?

Not at all, which I believe is why nobody has argued in favor of that. What we have noted is that when Durkon cast the spell, he is notably not touching anyone else, even though another person is on panel with him. And this is very similar to Shojo's wizard. I also see no reason to assume Durkon really did touch everyone as b_jonas suggests, since if that's the case we could just handwave away any notable issues differing from stock rules by just assuming they're not.

[Chronos]

Casting the spell occurs over a six-second time interval. A comic panel shows a single representative instant somewhere within that interval (at least, with the visuals: Speech bubbles must take some amount of time). I have no problem with assuming that the touching occurred off-panel, and the representative instant shown in the comic visuals does not correspond to one when he was actually touching someone.

For comparison, if we saw a panel where Roy's sword was in the backswing, with "slash slash slash slash" sound effects, and four new wounds on his adversary, we would assume that his sword had in fact made contact, even though it's not shown as being in contact at that moment. We would not assume that Roy's sword had some magical property that enabled it to inflict wounds without contact, or that there was a houserule about how swords work.

And a Bead of Karma or multiple castings would either one work for what we've seen so far, but we don't want to commit to either, I think. This is likely to be one of those very long days where counting spell slots will be relevant, and Wind Walk is high enough level for its number of slots to be meaningful.

[Peelee]

Casting the spell occurs over a six-second time interval. A comic panel shows a single representative instant somewhere within that interval (at least, with the visuals: Speech bubbles must take some amount of time). I have no problem with assuming that the touching occurred off-panel, and the representative instant shown in the comic visuals does not correspond to one when he was actually touching someone.

For comparison, if we saw a panel where Roy's sword was in the backswing, with "slash slash slash slash" sound effects, and four new wounds on his adversary, we would assume that his sword had in fact made contact, even though it's not shown as being in contact at that moment. We would not assume that Roy's sword had some magical property that enabled it to inflict wounds without contact, or that there was a houserule about how swords work.

And a Bead of Karma or multiple castings would either one work for what we've seen so far, but we don't want to commit to either, I think. This is likely to be one of those very long days where counting spell slots will be relevant, and Wind Walk is high enough level for its number of slots to be meaningful.

The comparison to Roy's sword isn't a fair one, though, because we have in-comic context clues to help - the multiple sounds effects that both convey how many swings, and also typically convey whether they hit or not (misses with sound effects have used "whiff" or similar humorous terms). Barring sound effects, we get damage lines, which anyone, even those wholly unfamiliar with D&D, can associate with the sword contacting the target. Magic spell requirements do not share any of those. And, in a scene that pointedly has one of the targets on camera with the Caster, in close proximity, with no other action occurring, the fact that the artist deliberately chose to draw them not touching (as he has for all teleportation spells as well) seems a deliberate choice to me. A

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The comparison to Roy's sword isn't a fair one, though, because we have in-comic context clues to help - the multiple sounds effects that both convey how many swings, and also typically convey whether they hit or not (misses with sound effects have used "whiff" or similar humorous terms). Barring sound effects, we get damage lines, which anyone, even those wholly unfamiliar with D&D, can associate with the sword contacting the target. Magic spell requirements do not share any of those. And, in a scene that pointedly has one of the targets on camera with the Caster, in close proximity, with no other action occurring, the fact that the artist deliberately chose to draw them not touching (as he has for all teleportation spells as well) seems a deliberate choice to me. A

Yeah, Durkon isn’t even close to touching Minrah in the panel we see him casting Wind Walk in, which makes it hard for me to believe that there’s an implication that he is touching her and it’s just not shown on panel. Whereas with a weapon attack there’s a clear implication that the weapon is hitting at some point, even if it’s not shown.

[Quartz]

Okay, so if we enforce utterly strict geekery, is there a feat or something that turns a spell with a range of touch into one that would fit what we see depicted?

[Peelee]

Okay, so if we enforce utterly strict geekery, is there a feat or something that turns a spell with a range of touch into one that would fit what we see depicted?

Sure. Distant Spell metamagic. Which, given the plan to Wind Walk without being in any danger, would be past unoptimized and venture into "actively bad" territory. Not to mention its not spoken, so it has a similar problem that the no touching has to begin with.

[danielxcutter]

Sure. Distant Spell metamagic. Which, given the plan to Wind Walk without being in any danger, would be past unoptimized and venture into "actively bad" territory. Not to mention its not spoken, so it has a similar problem that the no touching has to begin with.

Distant Spell? Source?

[Peelee]

Distant Spell? Source?

Huh. Could have sworn it was also in 3.5, but it seems I've finally managed to think more in terms of 5e now. My bad!

[Jasdoif]

Could have sworn it was also in 3.5, but it seems I've finally managed to think more in terms of 5e now.

You may be thinking of Complete Divine's Reach Spell and/or Archmage's Arcane Reach high arcana....Both of which are ill-suited for multi-touch spells, as they can only affect a single target per casting.

EDIT: Double-checked, and Hierophant's eerily similar Divine Reach actually says "targets" instead of "target"; so I guess it comes to down to where you want to draw the line on "requires a melee touch attack". And come to think of it, the primary reason to overlook hierophant (it doesn't advance spellcasting other than caster level) would allow Durkon to have a caster level of 18 without being able to cast 9th-level spells....

[Quartz]

EDIT: Double-checked, and Hierophant's eerily similar Divine Reach actually says "targets" instead of "target";

A level of Hierophant with Divine Reach is actually a really good choice for healer clerics as all the Cure spells - and Heal too - have a range of Touch. And given they're going up against a lich, it's a particularly good choice for Durkin as it enables him to affect Xykon with his healing spells - which are harmful to Xykon - without going toe to toe with him.

[Reboot]

A level of Hierophant with Divine Reach is actually a really good choice for healer clerics as all the Cure spells - and Heal too - have a range of Touch. And given they're going up against a lich, it's a particularly good choice for Durkin as it enables him to affect Xykon with his healing spells - which are harmful to Xykon - without going toe to toe with him.

However, Durkon *did* need to touch to hit Malack with a Heal: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html

[Quartz]

However, Durkon *did* need to touch to hit Malack with a Heal: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html

Good spot, but that was over 300 strips ago and it's entirely possible that Durkon has gained a level - maybe two - since he came back to life. Maybe he's learned from the experience?

[Quartz]

Is there another way that Durkon could achieve Divine Reach or its equivalent? Durkon would have to be 15th level to use Distant Spell on Wind Walk. Would it be thematic for the gauntlets to automatically apply Distant Spell?

[Reboot]

Would it be thematic for the gauntlets to automatically apply Distant Spell?

They're almost certainly Gauntlets of Ogre Power (to go with Belt of Giant Strength and Hammer of Thunderbolts - the other two items boost the hammer significantly):

Gauntlets of Ogre Power

These gauntlets are made of tough leather with iron studs running across the back of the hands and fingers. They grant the wearer great strength, adding a +2 enhancement bonus to his Strength score. Both gauntlets must be worn for the magic to be effective.

Faint transmutation; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, bull’s strength; Price 4,000 gp; Weight 4 lb.

So, no.

[Quebbster]

Good spot, but that was over 300 strips ago and it's entirely possible that Durkon has gained a level - maybe two - since he came back to life. Maybe he's learned from the experience?

He should have lost two levels from dying and being resurrected/raised twice. He might have earned one back storming the council chamber, but both seem unlikely and a third inconceivable.

[Quartz]

They're almost certainly Gauntlets of Ogre Power

That doesn't mean they can't have an extra function. And would not Reach be appropriate for something worn on the hands?

He should have lost two levels from dying and being resurrected/raised twice. He might have earned one back storming the council chamber, but both seem unlikely and a third inconceivable.

A PC that has suffered level loss does not need to take the same level again on gaining a new level. After dropping from Cleric 15+ to Cleric 13+ Durkon could have taken a level in Hierophant and become Cleric 13+ / Hierophant 1 when he gained a new level.

[Powerdork]

Is Roy's remark about outsider terminology worth suggesting that he's gained ranks in Knowledge (the planes) during his time with Celia?

[Peelee]

Is Roy's remark about outsider terminology worth suggesting that he's gained ranks in Knowledge (the planes) during his time with Celia?

Skills are hard to quantize. For example, Roy could have just rolled well on his check.

[GrayGriffin]

Skills are hard to quantize. For example, Roy could have just rolled well on his check.

Or it could be just one specific fact that he knows.

[Powerdork]

Can Knowledge checks be attempted untrained in this world?

[danielxcutter]

Can Knowledge checks be attempted untrained in this world?

All can be already, if the DC is 5 or under. Roy’s probably invested quite a bit in cross-class skills, though.

[Aelyn]

Is Roy's remark about outsider terminology worth suggesting that he's gained ranks in Knowledge (the planes) during his time with Celia?

If someone told you in-game that a lich will have a phylactery that needs to be destroyed to fully kill the lich, do you need to take the appropriate knowledge skill to recall the fact later on?

Although to be fair, even if the skill is needed, Roy is already known to spend for cross-class knowledge skills, and it would definitely be in-character for him to ping at least a point or two into a knowledge skill relating to his girlfriend.

I don't think it's enough to say he's definitely invested, but I also expect he probably has 1-3 ranks in Knowledge (Planes) anyway - we just can't be sure of it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Given how few skill points a fighter has available and the double hit for cross-class, I'm not really comfortable saying Roy has gotten more than a rank of Know:Planes.