Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[dancrilis]

Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
Spells: Greater Teleport, Teleport,

Just to check is there any reason to assume that Xykon has both of these rather then merely 'Greater Teleport' - all he says in 192 is that he warded his tower against Teleportation which doesn't seem firm that he has Teleport (although it might indicate that he has Xykon's Tower Warding Spell - from presumedly before he had Cloister).

[Peelee]

Just to check is there any reason to assume that Xykon has both of these rather then merely 'Greater Teleport' - all he says in 192 is that he warded his tower against Teleportation which doesn't seem firm that he has Teleport (although it might indicate that he has Xykon's Tower Warding Spell - from presumedly before he had Cloister).

That's a good point. The list of spells O-Chul observed does have one unknown 5th level spell, which Teleport would map well to, as well as being a spell that he would likely not witness Xykon using, so it's very likely that he does have Teleport, but not certain.

[understatement]

Just to check is there any reason to assume that Xykon has both of these rather then merely 'Greater Teleport' - all he says in 192 is that he warded his tower against Teleportation which doesn't seem firm that he has Teleport (although it might indicate that he has Xykon's Tower Warding Spell - from presumedly before he had Cloister).

He does use teleport in SOD, after

Spoiler: sod

Show

killing Fyron Pucebuckle,

although that was definitely several decades ago.

[MultitudeMan]

I guess it depends whether we think Xykon upgraded Teleport to Greater Teleport on an even level (i.e. swapped out Teleport for another 5th level spell when he gained Greater Teleport), or whether he kept it for emergencies, in case he was out of 7th-level spell slots and needed to evac. I'm inclined towards the former, but either could be the case. Do we know what level Xykon was at the time of Start of Darkness?

[danielxcutter]

I guess it depends whether we think Xykon upgraded Teleport to Greater Teleport on an even level (i.e. swapped out Teleport for another 5th level spell when he gained Greater Teleport), or whether he kept it for emergencies, in case he was out of 7th-level spell slots and needed to evac. I'm inclined towards the former, but either could be the case. Do we know what level Xykon was at the time of Start of Darkness?

Depends on which point in SoD, really. While human he was still defeated by Fyron in a battle of straight up magic, and from what I hear half of the Lirian rematch went that well due to his innate lich abilities. By the time he fought Dorukan though, he was literally capable of spamming more than a dozen Energy Drains; by then he'd almost certainly be epic.

[Aelyn]

Depends on which point in SoD, really. While human he was still defeated by Fyron in a battle of straight up magic, and from what I hear half of the Lirian rematch went that well due to his innate lich abilities. By the time he fought Dorukan though, he was literally capable of spamming more than a dozen Energy Drains; by then he'd almost certainly be epic.

Disclaimer: I'm not super familiar with 3rd or 3.5, and I'm relying mainly on the 3.5 srd for my information.

There's no direct evidence of spells cast during the fight with Fyron, so anything there is pure conjecture.

During the first fight against Lirian, Xykon attempts to cast Energy Drain, which is a 9th level spell, meaning he must be at least level 18 by then.

He also casts Soul Bind in the rematch, so he knew a second 9th level spell (unless he retrained mid-level somehow) which would put him at 19 at that point.

Finally, in the fight against Dorukan, we see him cast a total of 7 spells at 9th level. That can be done by being level 19 with a +13 CHA mod or level 20 with a +9 CHA mod, assuming no items, feats, or other unnamed bonus slots. This is AFAICT why he's classed as CHA 28+ in the first post.

We know he's Epic by the time he starts casting Cloister, which we only know for sure happened after conquering the Dungeon of Dorukan, but I don't think we can significantly narrow down exactly when he hit Epic. My guess is that it was either the fight against Lirian or the fight against Dorukan that got him there, but that is purely a guess.

[Quebbster]

Disclaimer: I'm not super familiar with 3rd or 3.5, and I'm relying mainly on the 3.5 srd for my information.

There's no direct evidence of spells cast during the fight with Fyron, so anything there is pure conjecture.

During the first fight against Lirian, Xykon attempts to cast Energy Drain, which is a 9th level spell, meaning he must be at least level 18 by then.

He also casts Soul Bind in the rematch, so he knew a second 9th level spell (unless he retrained mid-level somehow) which would put him at 19 at that point.

Finally, in the fight against Dorukan, we see him cast a total of 7 spells at 9th level. That can be done by being level 19 with a +13 CHA mod or level 20 with a +9 CHA mod, assuming no items, feats, or other unnamed bonus slots. This is AFAICT why he's classed as CHA 28+ in the first post.

We know he's Epic by the time he starts casting Cloister, which we only know for sure happened after conquering the Dungeon of Dorukan, but I don't think we can significantly narrow down exactly when he hit Epic. My guess is that it was either the fight against Lirian or the fight against Dorukan that got him there, but that is purely a guess.

Celia thinks Xykon cast Cloister while in the dungeon of Dorukan. Not immediately though, so perhaps he only hit epic levels after moving in?

[Aelyn]

Celia thinks Xykon cast Cloister while in the dungeon of Dorukan. Not immediately though, so perhaps he only hit epic levels after moving in?

Som.. that would be after he conquered the Dungeon of Dorukan then, like I said.

[Kornaki]

That seems like a bad reason for cha 28+ considering another explanation is he was just a higher level.

[Aelyn]

That seems like a bad reason for cha 28+ considering another explanation is he was just a higher level.

He needs to have CHA 28+ to cast seven level 9 spells at level 20, and spell slots don't progress at epic levels, so being a higher level wouldn't help. He'd need some sort of feat or magic item that gave him bonus level 9 spell slots, and I'm not sure if those even exist.

[danielxcutter]

Or he could use higher level slots. Once you take Improved Spell Capacity you get bonus spell slots for that level as well, after all.

[Aelyn]

Or he could use higher level slots. Once you take Improved Spell Capacity you get bonus spell slots for that level as well, after all.

That would be a feat I didn't know about! If he was at least level 21 when he fought Dorukan and then at least level 23 when he cast Cloister, he could have a CHA below 28 in theory (unless there's something else that confirms it).

I suspect CHA 28+ is more likely (after allowing for magic items and the Lich template boosting his already-naturally-high CHA), but it's not strictly necessary.

[dancrilis]

I suspect CHA 28+ is more likely (after allowing for magic items and the Lich template boosting his already-naturally-high CHA), but it's not strictly necessary.

He would also have gotten +3 merely from being old.

I have no issue with him having Improved Spell Capacity (prefering it as a explanation over the Sudden feats) but CHA 28 is doable for him without any magic items: Level 1: 18 then +3 age, +2 Lich, +5 from levels.

[Reboot]

That would be a feat I didn't know about! If he was at least level 21 when he fought Dorukan and then at least level 23 when he cast Cloister, he could have a CHA below 28 in theory (unless there's something else that confirms it).

I suspect CHA 28+ is more likely (after allowing for magic items and the Lich template boosting his already-naturally-high CHA), but it's not strictly necessary.

Well, Maximised Energy Drain is a twelfth-level spell - Energy Drain is ninth level, and Maximise adds three. So he needs to have taken ISC at least three times by #652 (and have the levels to do so).

[danielxcutter]

Well, Maximised Energy Drain is a twelfth-level spell - Energy Drain is ninth level, and Maximise adds three. So he needs to have taken ISC at least three times by #652 (and have the levels to do so).

Assuming he does not have non-epic methods of reducing the metamagic costs, the minimum level is Sorcerer 26.

Honestly I don’t want that to be the case even if it probably is. I mean... that’s just too high level. CR is imprecise at best yeah, but combined with his many resistances and immunities, I’m not sure if the Order can defeat him at all, period.

[chrestomancy]

Assuming he does not have non-epic methods of reducing the metamagic costs, the minimum level is Sorcerer 26.

Honestly I don’t want that to be the case even if it probably is. I mean... that’s just too high level. CR is imprecise at best yeah, but combined with his many resistances and immunities, I’m not sure if the Order can defeat him at all, period.

I've always been convinced he's 26+ from the Dorukan fight (and probably hasn't gone up levels since his effective level is now waaay to high to meaningfully get experience from most stuff) exactly because of maximised energy drain. There are several ways to get that, either making metamagic cheaper or higher level spell slots. But there's no way to do it without multiple epic feats in 3.5

Xykon was always a CR far beyond the capabilities of the Order of the Stick. This is an epic, career-spanning quest for Roy, and most of the others, so although that breaks the game appropriate threat levels, this isn't just a game to the Order. They're doing this not because they are the best people for the job, but because throughout, they have been the only people for the job.

[dancrilis]

I've always been convinced he's 26+ from the Dorukan fight (and probably hasn't gone up levels since his effective level is now waaay to high to meaningfully get experience from most stuff) exactly because of maximised energy drain. There are several ways to get that, either making metamagic cheaper or higher level spell slots. But there's no way to do it without multiple epic feats in 3.5

Sudden Maximise or a Greater Metamagic Rods (Maximize) would allow it.

I don't particularly like those answers but they don't require epic feats.

[Quartz]

Finally, in the fight against Dorukan, we see him cast a total of 7 spells at 9th level. That can be done by being level 19 with a +13 CHA mod or level 20 with a +9 CHA mod, assuming no items, feats, or other unnamed bonus slots. This is AFAICT why he's classed as CHA 28+ in the first post.

There is another way. There's the Versatile Spellcaster feat you can take whereby you sacrifice two spells of the level lower to cast a spell e.g. Xykon would sacrifice two 8th level spells to cast a 9th level spell. So to cast seven 9th level spells, Xykon only needs Versatile Spellcaster, Cha 19, and 19 levels of sorceror (four base spells plus three from sacrificed 8th level slots).

I mentioned this feat in a previous thread here. A criticism to which I forgot to respond - or maybe my response got eaten in the ether - was that it comes from Races of the Dragon, but given that we've had dragon-based individuals like Girard Draketooth and Enor, I think that has been covered.

Xykon does have room for another feat.

I would like to see Xykon's entry modified to

Sorceror 19+ (21+ total levels)

and

Cha 19+ / 28+ (casts seven 9th level spells in one combat, SOD, figures are with and without Versatile Spellcaster feat)

[Quartz]

Well, Maximised Energy Drain is a twelfth-level spell - Energy Drain is ninth level, and Maximise adds three. So he needs to have taken ISC at least three times by #652 (and have the levels to do so).

We've done this several times before. There are Sudden Metamagic feats. There's the Ultimate Magus prestige class. But I happen to agree that he's around level 26 because that works for his casting of Superb Dispelling without magic items. I did the maths here. TLDR: Xykon is level 27 plus or minus his Int bonus, with a minimum of level 23. Level 27 also allows him three picks of Improved Spell Capacity which would give him one 12th level spell. He would need a CHA of 34+ to get more than one.

[Peelee]

Celia thinks Xykon cast Cloister while in the dungeon of Dorukan. Not immediately though, so perhaps he only hit epic levels after moving in?

He was almost certainly epic before, and I think even before dying. Dorukan created Cloister and the headband for it. Xykon had to figure it out before he could cast it himself. That's what the delay is, I believe.

[Aelyn]

We've done this several times before. There are Sudden Metamagic feats. There's the Ultimate Magus prestige class. But I happen to agree that he's around level 26 because that works for his casting of Superb Dispelling without magic items. I did the maths here. TLDR: Xykon is level 27 plus or minus his Int bonus, with a minimum of level 23. Level 27 also allows him three picks of Improved Spell Capacity which would give him one 12th level spell. He would need a CHA of 34+ to get more than one.

Yeah, I knew that specific spell had generated a lot of discussion, that's why I was only looking at his historical levels - the position as at the start of the story.

[danielxcutter]

Does Metamagic Specialist(Necromancy) work as well? Might reduce the required spell slot level, dunno.

[Quartz]

He was almost certainly epic before, and I think even before dying. Dorukan created Cloister and the headband for it. Xykon had to figure it out before he could cast it himself. That's what the delay is, I believe.

The time spent depends on the DC of the spell (ELH p 88-89). Strictly spoeaking it depends upon the GP cost of the spell but that depends upon the DC.

[Jasdoif]

There's the Ultimate Magus prestige class.

Eh, Ultimate Magus is a mess. I mean in general, but also specifically here: the level cap for applying metamagic using the other set of slots for the adjustment is half the class level; so to apply this to ninth-level spells, that'd take 18 levels...requiring Xykon to be level 28 to take eight levels of epic progression (and also that the epic extrapolation is actually accepted, which may not be the safest bet in the world).

[Quartz]

Eh, Ultimate Magus is a mess. I mean in general, but also specifically here: the level cap for applying metamagic using the other set of slots for the adjustment is half the class level

You are correct, but I was speaking in general terms and level 28 is not unreasonable for Xykon anyway.

[dancrilis]

Durkon Allotrope Thundershield
Feats: Extend Spell or Sudden Extend

Elan
Feats: Still Spell.

Vaarsuvius
Feats:Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell (SSDT), Quicken Spell

Xykon
Feats: Maximize Spell or Sudden Maximize, Still Spell or Sudden Still,

Tsukiko
Feats: Quicken Spell.

Hilgya Firehelm & Kudzu
Feats: Empower Spell.

Pompey
Feats: Silent Spell, Still Spell.

Zz'dtri
Feats: Silent Spell, Empower Spell.

Malack
Feats: Quicken Spell.

Should we apply a consistent standard on listing Sudden Metamagic with non-Sudden Metamagic feats - i.e either list both or list one and link to a page the rules out Sudden feats.

For instance:

Redcloak
Feats: Extend Spell.

This entry could be updated to:
Feats: Extend Spell.
As he clearly casts the spell more then once there so we can discount Sudden Extend.

[danielxcutter]

Elan has Still Spell? Huh.

[TooSoon]

Does Metamagic Specialist(Necromancy) work as well? Might reduce the required spell slot level, dunno.

Xykon would have needed to be level 19 v.s Lirian to use two level 9 spells. I don't buy the "he learned soul bind after turning into a Lich" as plausible. You don't gain XP from losing a fight, and he already had the soul bind gem on him.

[danielxcutter]

Xykon would have needed to be level 19 v.s Lirian to use two level 9 spells. I don't buy the "he learned soul bind after turning into a Lich" as plausible. You don't gain XP from losing a fight, and he already had the soul bind gem on him.

I mean regarding his max level. If that works he might be able to cast Maximized Energy Drain with a slot lower than 12th level.

[dancrilis]

Do we have a body weight for Elan - he is able to lift his own weight single handed with other items, so that might impact his strenght as above average.