Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[dancrilis]

Xykon did not have True Seeing active in that encounter because that would have told him Roy's exact level.

How do you come to that conclusion?

[TooSoon]

I do think that it's a fair point that he can't be above 27, though (since mistaking Roy for Epic is hard to accept.) Since we know he was Epic at the start of the comic, this puts his level somewhere from 21-27.

There's no reason Xykon can't be level 35 or 45 actually. Level 26-27 is the low point he could be (I thought it was 27, but people keep saying 26). Can we all agree to change it now? We can still mention the caveats in the FAQ, but it seems to me most people are happy for it to read 26/27+ as the most straightforward and logical core explanation.

[Quartz]

How do you come to that conclusion?

Bother. I was remembering thje 2E version.

[danielxcutter]

I agree that Xykon was probably eyesocketing Roy’s level, and it’s not like the Weapon Focus line has obvious effects. It’s hard to tell someone’s level, especially if they don’t use spells or other stuff like that, and even then it’s usually just a bare minimum.

Personally, I still really don’t like Xykon being so ridiculously powerful compared to the protagonists, and if this was an actual game I would absolutely be complaining... but a good story does not exactly mean a good “game”, so to speak. Arguably I would say Don’t Split the Party was even worse, though; if THAT was an actual game I’d swear the DM was trying to screw everyone over.

Also I headcanon Tarquin to be a Fighter/Swordsage multiclass with possibly a couple of Monk levels as well for more bonus feats, personally. Deal with it :P

[Kurald Galain]

Added entries for Chuck and Jenny, does anyone have a smily for them? We're also missing a smily for Tarquin, Oona, Logann, and Right-Eye.

Removed third dagger from Belkar. Added rings of protection to the whole Order; heavy armor to Roy; higher strength to Durkon; Ghost Sound to Elan; three rogue specials and adamantine dagger to Haley; note about Phantasmal Force to V; metamagic specialist ACF and Greater Shatter to Xykon; new extend spell link to Redcloak; Extend (not Extra) Rage for Thog; note about Turn Undead to Hilgya; improved sending, spellcraft, and exact age to Julia; IUS link to Minrah; int 18 and level link to Laurin; +4 cha to Eugene.

[danielxcutter]

I’m guessing the Rings of Protection are from bonus strips?

Hilgya is listed as having a mace, but isn’t that a morningstar?

And this has probably been talked about already but what’s the evidence for Minrah having so many Fighter levels?

[Quartz]

Personally, I still really don’t like Xykon being so ridiculously powerful compared to the protagonists, and if this was an actual game I would absolutely be complaining...

Why? In a sandbox world if the first-level adventurers choose to go up against the Ancient Red Dragon and Demon Prince, that's their choice. So it is with Roy & co going up against Xykon. And remember that Xykon was Epic in the first book and the Order were only 8th or 9th level.

Also I headcanon Tarquin to be a Fighter/Swordsage multiclass with possibly a couple of Monk levels as well for more bonus feats, personally. Deal with it :P

Swordsage is also a good fit.

[b_jonas]

We're also missing a smily for Tarquin, Oona, Logann, and Right-Eye.

I can do Tarquin. his head is the same as Elan's with gray hair. I modified Rich's Elan smiley. This isn't ideal because it only works on a white background, but it will do until your replace Elan's head avatar too.
Elan
Tarquin

[danielxcutter]

Why? In a sandbox world if the first-level adventurers choose to go up against the Ancient Red Dragon and Demon Prince, that's their choice. So it is with Roy & co going up against Xykon. And remember that Xykon was Epic in the first book and the Order were only 8th or 9th level.

And are those supposed to be level-appropriate final dungeon bosses for such a party? Honestly, the problem isn’t that he was so much stronger then, the problem is that he’s still far stronger than them and worse, is more or less flat out immune to like half the party or so by default. I suppose the gap between 8 and 18 is a lot less than 18 and 28 if the latter doesn’t cheese the Baator out of Epic Spellcasting, but still.

Swordsage is also a good fit.

Oh yes, definitely... Tornado Throw, Death From Above, and I would not be surprised if he used Charging Minotaur to bull rush Haley out the window and a Mountain Hammer line strike to sunder Elan’s rapier.

I can do Tarquin. his head is the same as Elan's with gray hair. I modified Rich's Elan smiley. This isn't ideal because it only works on a white background, but it will do until your replace Elan's head avatar too.
Elan
Tarquin

Looks okay to me.

[Kurald Galain]

IÂ’m guessing the Rings of Protection are from bonus strips?

Correct.

Hilgya is listed as having a mace, but isnÂ’t that a morningstar?

Fair point; I've changed that. I suppose MorningStarBook didn't sound so great.

In a sandbox world if the first-level adventurers choose to go up against the Ancient Red Dragon and Demon Prince, that's their choice. So it is with Roy & co going up against Xykon.

Interestingly, if you look up the ancient dragons and demon princes in 3.5, they come to an average CR of 21.

I can do Tarquin. his head is the same as Elan's with gray hair.

Thank you!

[Doug Lampert]

Added entries for Chuck and Jenny, does anyone have a smily for them? We're also missing a smily for Tarquin, Oona, Logann, and Right-Eye.

Removed third dagger from Belkar. Added rings of protection to the whole Order; heavy armor to Roy; higher strength to Durkon; Ghost Sound to Elan; three rogue specials and adamantine dagger to Haley; note about Phantasmal Force to V; metamagic specialist ACF and Greater Shatter to Xykon; new extend spell link to Redcloak; Extend (not Extra) Rage for Thog; note about Turn Undead to Hilgya; improved sending, spellcraft, and exact age to Julia; IUS link to Minrah; int 18 and level link to Laurin; +4 cha to Eugene.

Julia is listed as level 11+ based on the programmed image page of the 2020 calendar. Which would give her Int 16+ rather than the 15+ for sending.

[Quartz]

And are those supposed to be level-appropriate final dungeon bosses for such a party?

Level-appropriate is not in play in a sandbox.

[C-Dude]

Also I headcanon Tarquin to be a Fighter/Swordsage multiclass with possibly a couple of Monk levels as well for more bonus feats, personally. Deal with it :P

Tarquin also has to have at least one level of Dashing Swordsman, in order to be able to counter Elan's pun fencing. He likely took the level years earlier after his first encounter with Julio.

[Peelee]

Tarquin also has to have at least one level of Dashing Swordsman, in order to be able to counter Elan's pun fencing. He likely took the level years earlier after his first encounter with Julio.

Why? The pun fencing ability just lets you use Charisma bonus instead of Strength bonus for damage when you attack while making a pun. Neither of them rolled for any damage during the duel. Even then, that bonus only applies when using a rapier, and Tarquin fought with a dagger.

He said he knows how to defend himself against obscure techniques. There may be an Evil Dashing Swordsman prestige class (somewhat similar to how Blackguard is the evil variant of Paladin) that he took instead. Or some sort of defense-based prestige class, which would make sense - he also fought super defensively at the pyramid.

[C-Dude]

Why? The pun fencing ability just lets you use Charisma bonus instead of Strength bonus for damage when you attack while making a pun. Neither of them rolled for any damage during the duel. Even then, that bonus only applies when using a rapier, and Tarquin fought with a dagger.

He said he knows how to defend himself against obscure techniques. There may be an Evil Dashing Swordsman prestige class (somewhat similar to how Blackguard is the evil variant of Paladin) that he took instead. Or some sort of defense-based prestige class, which would make sense - he also fought super defensively at the pyramid.

I was under the impression that punning also affected Elan's ability to hit (hence plinking against armored targets like Hel's Worm when his puns failed). Note that before Elan started punning, Tarquin was able to simply dodge the attacks. After Elan started using his class feature, Tarquin had to parry with his own puns to avoid being struck (rather than continuing to dodge).

I suppose that kind of defense could be covered by a feat or a different prestige class, but it seems odd that a Dashing Swordsman wouldn't be able to deflect the puns of another Dashing Swordsman as part of the class (especially if two are ever forced into a dramatic duel, as Elan and Tarquin were). Additionally, being that the class came from an obscure third-party manual, it seems unlikely there'd be a second class in that manual explicitly designed to counter it. As it's an out-of-brand source book and it was obscure at that, there would be little reason for other developer material to note or even consider counters to the class.

As for Tarquin using a dagger instead of a sword, maybe defending against puns doesn't require a specific weapon (or even a weapon at all), or maybe the rapier requirement can be optionally removed at a higher level of Dashing Swordsman.

I suppose we'll never know. Still, I hope that once the comic is done we'll get a write-up of the class, since Elan will no longer need the freedom granted by the obscurity of Dashing Swordsman's abilities.

[Peelee]

I was under the impression that punning also affected Elan's ability to hit (hence plinking against armored targets like Hel's Worm when his puns failed). Note that before Elan started punning, Tarquin was able to simply dodge the attacks. After Elan started using his class feature, Tarquin had to parry with his own puns to avoid being struck (rather than continuing to dodge).

I suppose that kind of defense could be covered by a feat or a different prestige class, but it seems odd that a Dashing Swordsman wouldn't be able to deflect the puns of another Dashing Swordsman as part of the class (especially if two are ever forced into a dramatic duel, as Elan and Tarquin were). Additionally, being that the class came from an obscure third-party manual, it seems unlikely there'd be a second class in that manual explicitly designed to counter it. As it's an out-of-brand source book and it was obscure at that, there would be little reason for other developer material to note or even consider counters to the class.

As for Tarquin using a dagger instead of a sword, maybe defending against puns doesn't require a specific weapon (or even a weapon at all), or maybe the rapier requirement can be optionally removed at a higher level of Dashing Swordsman.

I suppose we'll never know. Still, I hope that once the comic is done we'll get a write-up of the class, since Elan will no longer need the freedom granted by the obscurity of Dashing Swordsman's abilities.

Rules-wise, there is no difference to dodging and parrying an attack; the attack simply failed to overcome the AC, or possible failed to overcome DR (I don't remember the instances of Elan's puns failing, so I can't say for sure on that).

Further, it seems off that a Dashing Swordsman would be able to deflect the puns of another as part of the class; defending against one's own abilities is not a standard ability itself, and few tropes have dashing swordsmen (the archetype, not the prestige class) duel each other. They typically duel villains.

[C-Dude]

Rules-wise, there is no difference to dodging and parrying an attack; the attack simply failed to overcome the AC, or possible failed to overcome DR (I don't remember the instances of Elan's puns failing, so I can't say for sure on that).

The two comics I remembered that made me think this were:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html
Elan ran out of puns during the defense of Azure city, causing his sword to plink against the Hobgoblin's armor.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1164.html
Hel's worm didn't understand the pun, which I originally thought kept the attack from hitting. However, on closer inspection Elan was still able to strike and inflict damage with the Chaos Sabre, it just was a mild cut.

Further, it seems off that a Dashing Swordsman would be able to deflect the puns of another as part of the class; defending against one's own abilities is not a standard ability itself, and few tropes have dashing swordsmen (the archetype, not the prestige class) duel each other. They typically duel villains.

This is a fair point. It doesn't quite fall into the same pathways as a "Holmes vs. Moriarty" story might. Still, if the Dashing Swordsman doesn't have this ability to pun-deflect, who else would? Did Tarquin invent the defense as a feat after his first encounter with Julio: a house rule, like V's various sending spells during the downward spiral?

[Peelee]

The two comics I remembered that made me think this were:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html
Elan ran out of puns during the defense of Azure city, causing his sword to plink against the Hobgoblin's armor.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1164.html
Hel's worm didn't understand the pun, which I originally thought kept the attack from hitting. However, on closer inspection Elan was still able to strike and inflict damage with the Chaos Sabre, it just was a mild cut.

Good point. You're probably right, it probably does give a bonus to attack as well.

This is a fair point. It doesn't quite fall into the same pathways as a "Holmes vs. Moriarty" story might. Still, if the Dashing Swordsman doesn't have this ability to pun-deflect, who else would? Did Tarquin invent the defense as a feat after his first encounter with Julio: a house rule, like V's various sending spells during the downward spiral?

Considering that Dashing Swordsman was invented for the comic to start with, the quick and dirty answer would be "another prestige class invented for the comic." Unfortunately, given how the author likes to leave things up in the air until tying them down is needed, and went even further in that direction with Tarquin et al, it makes pegging things down in later comics remarkably tricky.

[Gift Jeraff]

I still think Tarq has that villain prestige class mentioned in the DSTP PDF bonus material.

[Peelee]

I still think Tarq has that villain prestige class mentioned in the DSTP PDF bonus material.

The one on the page with Wobbly Frank?

I like this theory.

[danielxcutter]

Hey, does researching maneuvers require you to have levels in martial adept classes? Wouldn’t be exactly shocked if Tarquin researched a custom one.

Also I very much got the impression that Tarquin was toying with Elan, and of course if he is a Swordsage he probably has loads of counters. Maybe he kept dodging to refresh his maneuvers before going full punnage?

[Ephemera]

I wouldn't even rule out "if your pun is countered you get -1/2/3 to hit" as a feature if dashing swordsman, with the knowledge of that being fairly obscure, and/or having a prerequisite of high charisma or some skill or being a bard of opposed alignment or whatever. It would be a little silly mechanically but would fit with the flavor.

[Quartz]

It's quite common for class abilities to be limited by level, stat mod, or some combination thereof.

[Gurgeh]

Yeah, I think it's perfectly reasonable for Tarquin's pun defences to not necessarily be tied to a specific anti-pun feat or class feature.

We've already got clear precedent that pun bonuses have built-in failure conditions (consider all of the times Elan's run out of ideas or had to deal with enemies that don't understand them), so it's not unreasonable to think that they might also have failure conditions for more intelligent opponents, as well.

It's also possible that Tarquin wasn't taking any specific countermeasures at all and was simply far too capable a combatant for Elan to affect, and was just punning back at him for dramatic effect.

An unrelated question: what's the justification for Roy's ranks in Spellcraft? Don't get me wrong, there are all sorts of valid narrative reasons for him to know his way around magic, but the listed comic doesn't seem to involve any use of the skill.

Going panel by panel:

Panel 1: Speculation about whether or not the door would have been better disguised by illusions. Doesn't require any specific knowledge of magic in general or any given spell in particular, especially since the party at this point were well aware that the gate's illusionary defences were largely gone.
Panel 2: Asking Haley whether or not she's able to disarm traps that she's already seen and mentioned. Once again, no knowledge at all is implied here.
Panel 5: Chiding Haley after she makes a mistake (and after her admission of the mistake - so he's not catching her out there).
Panel 10: Making a continuity joke.

Roy doesn't offer anything at all here that shows expertise with the skill as described in the game rules - he isn't identifying any spells or magical effects, let alone anything specific enough to tie it to an explicit numerical value. Is it supposed to link somewhere else?

[TooSoon]

Correct.

Fair point; I've changed that. I suppose MorningStarBook didn't sound so great.

Interestingly, if you look up the ancient dragons and demon princes in 3.5, they come to an average CR of 21.

Thank you!

Can we get a vote on the Xykon level issue? Cheers.

[Peelee]

I can't seem to find sextants in the SRD. Can someone remind me their relation to Knowledge (Geography)?

[Gurgeh]

It looks to me like the connection is implicit - there's an assumption that Roy must have Knowledge: Geography in order to navigate with a map and sextant (though RAW does not make any explicit connections between Knowledge: Geography and navigation, and there's significant overlap with Survival on that front). I don't think it's justified.

[Rogar Demonblud]

They help you find your latitude, which tells you something about where you are. Not sure if that counts as Geography or Navigation. Or are those the same in 3E?

[Jasdoif]

I can't seem to find sextants in the SRD. Can someone remind me their relation to Knowledge (Geography)?

All I've got is that a sextant is part of a navigator's kit from Arms and Equipment Guide, which gives a +2 circumstance bonus to (what in 3.5 would be) Survival and Profession (cartographer) checks at sea. (Also reminds me how much I appreciated the removal of sun sighting from the remake of Sid Meier's Pirates!.)

[Peelee]

The reason I ask is that as a Northerner in Northern lands, Roy seems to have absolutely zero knowledge of Geography. If the sextant doesn't require Know (Geog), I would argue for him having 0 ranks.

They help you find your latitude, which tells you something about where you are. Not sure if that counts as Geography or Navigation. Or are those the same in 3E?

I meant rules relation, sorry. That was my fault. Fun fact, I have a sextant (and no idea how to use it, despite taking a Geography class in college).