Leap Attack Errata

[Tyrael]

I was just looking up Leap Attack and its errata when I noticed something funny. Leap Attack is available online, so I assume I can quote it without getting sued.

The original feat:

Leap Attack

You can combine a powerful charge and a mighty leap into one devastating attack.

Prerequisites: Jump 8 ranks, Power Attack.

Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

And the errata:

The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.

SECOND sentence. This has no bearing on the THIRD sentence, which reads "If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack."

So if I'm reading this right, the errata has no effect whatsoever upon two-handed Leap Attackers.

Is that right?

[The_Snark]

It was added to avoid trouble with Frenzied Berserkers, who (if you interpreted it a certain way pre-errata) could get something like a x8 Power Attack multiplier on a Leap Attack. I wouldn't have interpreted it that way myself, but apparently enough did that Wizards gave the errata.

[Tyrael]

Yes, but my point is that the errata doesn't even touch the third sentence, which deals with two-handed weapons. So if the Frenzied Berserker uses a two-handed weapon, he gets 4x return from Supreme Power Attack, stacking with 3x return from two-handed Leap Attack, which....works out to 12x!? That can't be right...

[Angafirith]

Following quote from the d20srd

Multiplying

Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

x4 and x3 would mean x6, right?

[Yakk]

Remember: If D&D was a computer program, it wouldn't compile.

Don't treat it like a computer program and expect it to be without bugs.

[Peregrine]

Firstly, yeah, the erratum in question should logically have 'corrected' the third sentence too.

Secondly, I fail to see the point, thanks to D&D multiplication rules.

Thirdly, note that the Frenzied Berserker itself has errata out, that likewise 'correct' the phrasing from multipliers to +x%. So even if the x3 still applies for two-handers, how does that interact with the corrected Supreme Power Attack?

[Iku Rex]

Custserv has given some conflicting answers on this one, but I think the intent was to remove the third sentence.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?...2&postcount=33 .

End result: 4x the damage subtracted from your attack rolls, just like the almost identically worded frenzied berserker ability (see errata). Both abilities add 100%, so if you stack them you get +200%. (3x extra damage, 6x penalty if two-handed).

[Roderick_BR]

One of the errors of the original text, is that whoever wrote it forgot that you ALREADY gains extra damage from two-handers, or intended to replace it (that would make the two-hander acutally weaker).
I do it this way: Get Power Attack, see how much damage you give (with one or two hander), and that is your base damage. Leap Attack adds that same value again, and Supreme Power Attack (Frenzied Berserker) adds it again.

So, your barbarian gets a -20 to attack, and deals +40 damage. With Leap attack, he adds 80 (normal +40, leap attack +40). If he's a frenzied berserker without leap attack, he deals 80 (normal +40, supreme power attack +40) and if you are a frenzied berserker with leap attack, you deal +120 (normal +40, supreme power attack+40, leap attack+40).

Using one hander, the modifiers would be attack -20, +20 damage(normal +20), +40(normal +20, leap attack +20), +40 (normal +20, supreme power attack +20), or +60 (normal +20, leap attack +20, supreme power attack +20).

Attack |One-hander              |Two-hander
penalty|normal|leap|SPA|leap+SPA|normal|leap|SPA|leap+SPA
----------------------------------------------------------
-1     |+1    |+2  |+2 |+3      |+2    |+4  |+4 |+6      
-5     |+5    |+10 |+10|+15     |+10   |+20 |+20|+30     
-10    |+10   |+20 |+20|+30     |+20   |+40 |+40|+60     
-15    |+15   |+30 |+30|+45     |+30   |+60 |+60|+90     
-20    |+20   |+40 |+40|+60     |+40   |+80 |+80|+120

Normal: No leap attack, nor supreme power attack.
Leap: Leap attack
SPA: Supreme Power Attack.

[Goumindong]

I was just looking up Leap Attack and its errata when I noticed something funny. Leap Attack is available online, so I assume I can quote it without getting sued.

The original feat:



And the errata:



SECOND sentence. This has no bearing on the THIRD sentence, which reads "If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack."

So if I'm reading this right, the errata has no effect whatsoever upon two-handed Leap Attackers.

Is that right?

No, two handed leap attackers have always had a x3 modifier on their leap attack damage.

What this does is stop someone with a very high jump score to "travel 10 feet" towards his target by jumping straight up and down. I.E. jump up 10 feet, come down 10 feet. I have traveled 10 feet in a straight line, i can charge, i can leap attack, i can charge and leap attack from a position right next to my opponent.

Granted you can do that ANYWAY so long as you have room to manuver since you can travel 10 feet while jumping and tumbling to avoid an AoO, then hit any target that threatens you.

Another handy thing to do with is is to combine with Acrobatic strike, since the tumble grants you +4 to your attack.

With the right skills this means you can pretty much always, given room, perform a leap attack at +6-8 [for flanking]. Plus 4 from acrobatic strike, +2 from charging, +2 for flanking[+4 for vexing flanker] and more effective bonus if the target has a dex bonus to be denied due to flanking.

Or a normal charge at +6 total attack.

[Person_Man]

I concur with Roderick's table. This is what my group uses:

Power Attack: +1 damage per BAB
Power Attack with a two handed weapon: +2 damage per BAB
Leap Attack: +2 damage per BAB
Leap Attack with a two handed weapon: +4 damage per BAB

FB is banned by a gentleman's agreement between all of the players.

But I've heard plenty of very intelligent and regular posters argue that Leap Attack with a two handed weapon only provides a +3 damage per BAB. We've argued about it a dozen times, but I don't have the energy right now.

[Yakk]

I'm pretty sure that Leap Attack is supposed to add a raw +x1 to the power attack damage.

So:
Power: +1 damage per -1 BaB
Power2H: +2 damage per -1 BaB
LeapPower: +2 damage per -1 BaB
LeapPower2H: +3 damage per -1 BaB

Do you really think that this:

If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

was a really strange way of saying "you do 4 damage per 1 BaB when you leap-power attack with a 2 handed weapon"?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

What this does is stop someone with a very high jump score to "travel 10 feet" towards his target by jumping straight up and down. I.E. jump up 10 feet, come down 10 feet. I have traveled 10 feet in a straight line, i can charge, i can leap attack, i can charge and leap attack from a position right next to my opponent.

Granted you can do that ANYWAY so long as you have room to manuver since you can travel 10 feet while jumping and tumbling to avoid an AoO, then hit any target that threatens you.

Charging is more than just moving 10 feet in a straight line.

If you are jumping up and down you are not moving "directly toward the designated opponent ... to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent."

[F.H. Zebedee]

I doubt I could let it (vertical jump charge) go without making a crack about either FF Dragoons or Rurouni Kenshin (Whose signature attack, IIRC, was a 8+ foot vertical jump with a two handed power attack.)

Actually, it just seems totally against RAI and RAW to allow that. I might let them do it once or twice, but even then, I'd make them take a further penalty on their attack roll and AC.

[Roderick_BR]

(...)What this does is stop someone with a very high jump score to "travel 10 feet" towards his target by jumping straight up and down. I.E. jump up 10 feet, come down 10 feet. I have traveled 10 feet in a straight line, i can charge, i can leap attack, i can charge and leap attack from a position right next to my opponent.(...)

Like Belkar?

[Yakk]

Ayep -- the trick is, you finish your first turns movement allowance in the air, at the peak of your leap, and then ...

[Enguhl]

I always did a leap attack for flavor... what book is this "leap attack" in?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Ayep -- the trick is, you finish your first turns movement allowance in the air, at the peak of your leap, and then ...

A very unstable tactic at best.

Leap attack also requires that you end the jump in a square where you threaten, so unless you are targeting an immobile target, chances are that you cannot fulfil that requirement.

[Jasdoif]

I always did a leap attack for flavor... what book is this "leap attack" in?

It's in Complete Adventurer. And conveniently in the excerpt for Complete Adventurer.

[Enguhl]

It's in Complete Adventurer. And conveniently in the excerpt for Complete Adventurer.

Awesome and thank you. *note: I need Complete Adventurer*

[Kizara]

I'm pretty sure that Leap Attack is supposed to add a raw +x1 to the power attack damage.

So:
Power: +1 damage per -1 BaB
Power2H: +2 damage per -1 BaB
LeapPower: +2 damage per -1 BaB
LeapPower2H: +3 damage per -1 BaB

Do you really think that this:

was a really strange way of saying "you do 4 damage per 1 BaB when you leap-power attack with a 2 handed weapon"?

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter. The golden rule in DnD is that a double doubled number is triple. X2 + X2 = X3, not x4. Ever.

So, if you have a 2Handed PA, that's x2. Leap attack? X2 again. Improved Power Attack? X2. Supreme Power attack x3 (instead of x2)

So it works like this.

You PA for 5.

Pa= 5.
PA 2h = 10.
PA 2h with LA = 15 (x2 + x2 = x3)
PA 2h with LA and Impr PA= 20 (x2+x2+x2=x4)
PA 2h with LA and Supreme PA = 25 (x2+x2+x2+x2=x5)

It's actually extremely simple if you follow the basic rule of increasing the multiple and that you generally don't. touch an already-calculated number to apply another multiplier of damage. The only pseudo-exceptions to this are spirited charge (that works seperately from PA damage, but in an extremely similar fashion with things like cavalier abilities and using a lance) and critcal damage (which is just about applying all your bonuses a few times, not really directly effecting them... usually).

[Yakk]

A very unstable tactic at best.

Leap attack also requires that you end the jump in a square where you threaten, so unless you are targeting an immobile target, chances are that you cannot fulfil that requirement.

Use a surprise round! Bwahahaha!

Suppose you start adjacent to your target and have surprise. You jump up, ending your turn's movement at the top of the arc.

You then win initiative. You charge down and slice!

I mean, just for the style points... ;)

...

Of course, all of this is based on an entire chain of feats that scale too fast to be reasonable, in comparison to other feats. You shouldn't be getting +6 to +12 or more damage per level, period. While it is "only damage", it is enough damage that it makes pretty much all other sources of damage obsolete: anything that can survive that level of damage ends up ignoring any other kind of damage.

Hopefully 4e doesn't have the same kind of bugs.

[Iku Rex]

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter. The golden rule in DnD is that a double doubled number is triple. X2 + X2 = X3, not x4. Ever.

The abstract value doubled with Leap Attack ("the extra damage from Power Attack") has never been doubled before. "The number subtracted from your attack rolls" have, but that's not what you're multiplying with Leap Attack.

An example of how this works from Complete Warrior (errata):

Supreme Power Attack: A 10th-level frenzied
berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use
of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using
the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a
two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls
(instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty she applies
to her attack rolls.

Of course, if you go strictly by RAW or you think WotC CustServ is lying when they say the third sentence should have been removed by errata, the result is +6 damage/-1 penalty. (Same as on a 3x critical hit).

[Starbuck_II]

I will always read Leap Attack + PA with 2 handed as x4.
If we are using multipliers: X2 X3=+5. Math: 2x3=6-1=5.

Supreme makes it +10 because 100%.

This is why I stick clear of multipliers.

[Fighteer]

I will always read Leap Attack + PA with 2 handed as x4.
If we are using multipliers: X2 X3=+5. Math: 2x3=6-1=5.

Supreme makes it +10 because 100%.

This is why I stick clear of multipliers.

Well, that's because you're doing it incorrectly in the first place.

Base value = 1 (100%)
x2 = +1 (+100%)
x3 = +2 (+200%)
x4 = +3 (+300%)
(etc)

(x2) = x(1 + 1) = x2
(x2 x2) = x(1 + 1 + 1) = x3
(x2 x3) = x(1 + 1 + 2) = x4
(x2 x3 x2) = x(1 + 1 + 2 + 1) = x5

This is RAW, no matter how you choose to interpret it.

[Yakk]

Once again, why in the world would they say this:

If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

to mean "you do +4 damage for every -1 attack on a power attack when using a 2 H weapon and leap attack"?

That would be ridiculously obtuse of them, wouldn't it?

[Iku Rex]

Once again, why in the world would they say this:

...

to mean "you do +4 damage for every -1 attack on a power attack when using a 2 H weapon and leap attack"?

That would be ridiculously obtuse of them, wouldn't it?

It would. As written, it means +6 damage for every -1 penalty on attacks. Just as if you'd scored a critical hit with a x3 critical weapon.

But once again, that entire sentence should have been removed by the errata.

You are correct that the errata does not state that it replaces the third and other sentences as well, but I have spoken with the group of guys that make the game, and that is what they meant for the errata to do.-- http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?...2&postcount=33

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Use a surprise round! Bwahahaha!

Suppose you start adjacent to your target and have surprise. You jump up, ending your turn's movement at the top of the arc.

You then win initiative. You charge down and slice!

I mean, just for the style points... ;)

Yes, that is quite a trick. It only requires that you surprise your victim and wins the initiative.

Completely BROKEN!!!!!1111ONEELEVEN