OOTS #1195 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogar Demonblud]

Kantaki doesn't check under the bed for boogeymen. Boogeymen check under the bed for Kantaki.

[Jay R]

Let's examine Julia's plan for a minute.

The Order of the Stick successfully kills Xykon. Without Xykon, Redcloak's thirty-year-old plan has just been destroyed. Then they try to get his cooperation. Durkon explains to Redcloak that they need him to cast a spell to save the entire world, including the Dark One.

Redcloak: OK, I'll make you a deal. I'll cast a spell for you, if you will cast the other half of this ritual for me.

[Snails]

Let's examine Julia's plan for a minute.

The Order of the Stick successfully kills Xykon. Without Xykon, Redcloak's thirty-year-old plan has just been destroyed. Then they try to get his cooperation. Durkon explains to Redcloak that they need him to cast a spell to save the entire world, including the Dark One.

Redcloak: OK, I'll make you a deal. I'll cast a spell for you, if you will cast the other half of this ritual for me.

At first I thought that was ridiculously silly and would never work. But then I realized that IFCC could make it happen, and I do not understand their motives sufficiently to say they wouldn't.

[Seward]

But he kept Lolth, who I think was originally a Greyhawk fictional deity/demon queen

Loth was the Final Boss for the Greyhawk series of 1st edition tournament modules known as "GDQ" by extreme nerds like me.
(for 3 Giants modules, 3 Drow modules and 1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits module)

They eventually also tied the earlier Slave Lords tournament modules as a sort of prequil to GDQ later.

She was categorized as a Demon Lord which sort of puts her at lesser god or demigod level, depending on which edition and Deities & Demigods type book you believe. Divine but not especially powerful for such a deity and killable for reals on her home plane. Which you actually get to attempt in the final module with a party that is usually in its low teens of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons levels (no 2nd edition "kits" or such nonsense, I think GDQ might even predate Unearthed Arcana's class and spell list expansion)

All that said...she can ALSO be a Forgotten Realm deity with no canon problems from the Greyhawk version because in her Demonweb she has portals to multiple Prime Material planes, where her conquest plans are going various degrees of well or poorly. Faerun could easily be one of those, or perhaps a portal not in the section of the Demonweb that the PC's encounter.

[danielxcutter]

Yes, I believe the archdevils and demon lords have also set up shop there. Heck, the demon lords are even in Golarion, the world of Pathfinder - it’s just that they can’t get a foot in the door because a) the native demons have a better hold and b) they’re focusing on other Material Plane worlds for now.

Y’know, a campaign where someone like Demogorgon tries to get a foothold in Golarion only to get bitchslapped back out by the entire pantheon would be glorious.

[KorvinStarmast]

Loth was the Final Boss for the Greyhawk series of 1st edition tournament modules known as "GDQ" by extreme nerds like me.
(for 3 Giants modules, 3 Drow modules and 1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits module)

Yeah, I was around and playing D&D when those came out.

They eventually also tied the earlier Slave Lords tournament modules as a sort of prequil to GDQ later.

She was categorized as a Demon Lord which sort of puts her at lesser god or demigod level, depending on which edition and Deities & Demigods type book you believe. Divine but not especially powerful for such a deity and killable for reals on her home plane.

Yeah, not quite a deity like Thor, initially.

[Anansiil]

Fancy alien wizards who figured out how to crowd source their magic... ... ... *mind caves in under the weight of that description*

Their conversation is a bit frightening:

Redcloak is using Xykon, so killing Xykon could have unintended effects.
If they are spiteful enough about the gods, will they damn us all by choosing us over the gods?

[factotum]

At first I thought that was ridiculously silly and would never work. But then I realized that IFCC could make it happen, and I do not understand their motives sufficiently to say they wouldn't.

How could the IFCC make it happen, exactly? All they can do is kidnap V's soul for a little while, they can't force him to do anything.

[Quebbster]

How could the IFCC make it happen, exactly? All they can do is kidnap V's soul for a little while, they can't force him to do anything.

Even if they could, the remaining claim is for less than twenty-five minutes, while the ritual takes a few weeks to finish.
It's very likely that the IFCC has a few nasty tricks up their sleeves, of course, but this is probably not one of them.

[Piomicron]

Fancy alien wizards who figured out how to crowd source their magic... ... ... *mind caves in under the weight of that description*

Their conversation is a bit frightening:

Redcloak is using Xykon, so killing Xykon could have unintended effects.
If they are spiteful enough about the gods, will they damn us all by choosing us over the gods?

I agree. When talking about judging the gods' actions they fail to account for things outside their infinitesimal bubbles of priority and awareness.

By defying the gods to 'save the world' he may doom the multiverse or even the world as well by doing so.

[Grey Watcher]

I agree. When talking about judging the gods' actions they fail to account for things outside their infinitesimal bubbles of priority and awareness.

By defying the gods to 'save the world' he may doom the multiverse or even the world as well by doing so.

I don't see how. What they're doing is functionally the same as a "no" result from the Godsmoot. And it was only Hel's entirely self-serving plan that was specifically design to booster at everyone else's expense that prevent the result from an outright no in the first place.

As Rich explained before having a Gate under is control is much, much, much more useful to The Dark One than using it. So the gods hold another moot, agree to destroy the world now that everythying's gotten worse and unmake everything including the Gate. Hell, with the lack of communication between The Dark One and everyone else, I give them good odds on being able to pull that off. Redcloak and The Dark One seem to think The Plan will come as huge surprise to the other gods, but they've known about it all along and have had plenty of time to prepare countermeasures. The Dark One isn't nearly as clever as he thinks he is. And even if, if, if The Dark One not only pulls off The Plan, but also drops his bomb on one of the gods, he's ultimately killed one god. The multiverse will keep moving. I just don't see how "definitely destroying the world" is a better outcome than "small chance that Asgard will be destroyed". A world destroyed is a world destroyed, and Roy is taking the opportunity to find a solution that means nobody has to die.

Yes, Roy's plan involves nonzero risk. But unless a very particular set of things all go wrong in a very specific way, the outcome ends up being, at worst, exactly the same as simply giving up right now: the world is unmade and the gods chill until it's time to try again.

And it's not like the gods are unanimous on this either. Thor and Loki, I'm sure would resent that what very easily could be the one and only chance to actually break the cycle just got tossed in the trash without even being properly attempted.

What's shocking to me is that people are apparently perfectly comfortable with condemning an unspecified number of unknowing (to say nothing of unwilling) people to death to avoid any risk whatsoever to a bunch of people who are virtually guaranteed to be fine no matter what happens.

But I'll say no more about it because on that path lies danger.

[The MunchKING]

And even if, if, if The Dark One not only pulls off The Plan, but also drops his bomb on one of the gods, he's ultimately killed one god. The multiverse will keep moving.

He's opened a portal in the Outer Planes. It's not 'One God will get wrecked', it's "all the Gods will get wrecked" or at least all the ones on that plane of existence.

[bunsen_h]

How could the IFCC make it happen, exactly? All they can do is kidnap V's soul for a little while, they can't force him to do anything.

They could probably provide someone else who would do the arcane part of the ritual. Say, a goblinoid caster who's been soul-spliced up to the level needed for the ritual.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Thing about wrecking this world and killing everyone on it. They'll all be dead in a cosmic gnat's blink and replaced by someone else even if you don't. Functionally, there's no difference. The only upside here is keeping the Snarl from eating souls. Whether you achieve that by patching the cage (the current plan) or pulling the plug as a spoiler (the "Yes" blocs plan) has the same result in the end as far as that goes. The Order's chance to break the cycle is the best option, yes, but the impact for that is primarily in favor of the gods anyway.

[Stone of Light]

So, Roy's line about taking down Redcloak if necessary has me worried about the future of the OOTS. I get this feeling that's going to be a large point of contention between him and Durkon, whom I see being willing to commit to the Redcloak plan and take risks a lot longer than Roy. As a parallel to the Order of the Scribble, I could certainly see a fallout among the Order over how this plan works out and what it costs.

[F.Harr]

Although I by that as a theme, but the Stick is not the Scribble. They've put a lot of work into getting their act together. It might be a challange, but I beleive in their ability to overcome.

And I don't think Eugene wanted a lackey as a son. I don't thing he knew what he wanted, but it wasn't a lackey.

[Threeshades]

Just stopping by to say I think this was the single best page of OotS yet.

[Reathin]

I like Roy, and I often agree with his assessments, but in this case, I'm going to have to disagree with a few of them. I understand and empathize with his position, but some don't play out right in my head, rationally. Emotionally, I get it. I'd do what I could to save my world were I in his boots. But for someone who's usually pretty clear headed about the long term, some of this felt a bit off.

"A lot of supposedly benevolent deities opted to throw all of us sunder the cosmic bus when push came to shove"

As opposed to allowing their souls to be annihilated. Were my options
a) be swiftly taken into a well-aligned afterlife, to exist in peace and harmony for either forever or at least an outrageous period of time
or
b) spend my final few seconds being unmade and condemned to Oblivion

I'm going to take option a), thanks. And being too slow has apparently cost them worlds in the past. Maybe lots of them, given the scale that Thor showed off. Billions of people, snuffed out ENTIRELY. The afterlife might have a rough entry fee, but it's still YOU. You're just someplace else. While I would certainly want the Pantheons to take every reasonable action to save the current world, I cannot fault them for wanting to save people on the much, much, much, much, MUCH longer term that is eternity.

The gods are just fancy alien wizards who figured out how to crowdsource magic

This is...a fairly ludicrous judgement. Literally everything Roy knows and loves (and hates and fears) was made possible (if not outright made) by those same beings. Entities with billions, if not more, years of experience generating and maintaining worlds and planes of existence. You can easily make the case that they're not infallible (honestly, most of them would likely cop to that if asked respectfully), but the idea that just because they aren't flawless means their literally millions-of-cases experience should be as easily dismissed as a mortal who isn't even one lifetime old is a very odd conclusion to come to. It's like a child walking up to the greatest artist in the world and point out that because they aren't the perfect artist, their advice on making art is worthless. Even if they were essentially scaled up mortal with superpowers beyond other superpowers, not their own special category of being (which is highly suspect), their experience is worth listening to.

Also, this "alien wizards" idea is coming from Eugene, a man not particularly well acquainted with the concept of sound judgement and a sense of scale. My suspicion is that he could only explain the sheer scale of deities by putting them in the same mental box as his on "best ever" grouping, wizards, then adding a little plus sign next to it.

That the gods don't deserve special deference solely because they're powerful

Perhaps, but given that they've created more worlds and dealt with the resulting Snarl destruction sequences more times then Roy has had minutes of life, the idea of anyone having an equivalent perspective is kinda laughable.


Don't get me wrong, I want him to succeed in helping to save the world. But dismissing the idea of the long term in the process sounds to me more like Roy's willing to throw every OTHER world under the cosmic bus, if needed. You're unlikely to get another chance like this to permanently stabilizing everything. Strikes me as a bit weird he's being so dismissive about that.

[Fyraltari]

I like Roy, and I often agree with his assessments, but in this case, I'm going to have to disagree with a few of them. I understand and empathize with his position, but some don't play out right in my head, rationally. Emotionally, I get it. I'd do what I could to save my world were I in his boots. But for someone who's usually pretty clear headed about the long term, some of this felt a bit off.



As opposed to allowing their souls to be annihilated. Were my options
a) be swiftly taken into a well-aligned afterlife, to exist in peace and harmony for either forever or at least an outrageous period of time
or
b) spend my final few seconds being unmade and condemned to Oblivion

I'm going to take a), thanks. And being too slow has apparently cost them worlds in the past. Maybe lots of them, given the scale that Thor showed off. Billions of people, snuffed out ENTIRELY. The afterlife might have a rough entry fee, but it's still YOU. You're just someplace else. While I would certainly want the Pantheons to take every reasonable action to save the current world, I cannot fault them for wanting to save people on the much, much, much, much, MUCH longer term that is eternity.

Two things here:
1) The gods that vote to destroy the world are doing it while it still can be saved despite knowing that this course of action means the cycle of world destruction would continue indefinitely. Loki said that they should hte last gate fall they would still have time to unmake the world. There are two arguments I could see raised against taking Loki at his word here:
a) Loki cannoit be honest. That doesn't mean he can't say the truth. He wasn't honest there as his reasons for protceting this world aren't (I think these mortals are funny) and why would he lie about how fast the gods could act? They would all know he is lying.
b) Many worlds fell to the Snarl. We don't know why the gods weren't quick enough to act. It could simply be that they didn't know when the Snarl was going to break free. But here and now they would know because they know what the last thing holding it is and they can watch that.

2)There are eighteen full northern gods and seven northern demigods who bothered to show up. Most of there arguments had nothing to do with what you said.

This is...a fairly ludicrous judgement. Literally everything Roy knows and loves (and hates and fears) was made possible (if not outright made) by those same beings. Entities with billions, if not more, years of experience generating and maintaining worlds and planes of existence. You can easily make the case that they're not infallible (honestly, most of them would likely cop to that if asked respectfully), but the idea that just because they aren't flawless means their literally millions-of-cases experience should be as easily dismissed as a mortal who isn't even one lifetime old is a very odd conclusion to come to. It's like a child walking up to the greatest artist in the world and point out that because they aren't the perfect artist, their advice on making art is worthless.

Someone being old and powerful and having done a lot of stuff is not proof there are right. This is an argument from authority fallacy. It's not even a good one given that the gods disagree on what the right course of action is.
Which is hardly surprising given that the gods are moulded by mortal belief in their sphere. Vafthrudnir is the god of secrets so he goes with the option that results in the fewer people being in the know. That's hardly good decision-making. And so on.

Also, this idea is coming from Eugene, a man not particularly well acquainted with the concept of sound judgement and a sense of scale. My suspicion is that he could only explain the sheer scale of deities by putting them in the same mental box as his on "best ever" grouping, wizards, then adding a little plus sign next to it.

That Eugene formulated it has no bearing on the truth of his proposition. If Jack the reaper argued that diseases were transmmitted by invisible tiny creatures, he would be right even though he cut in people in pieces.

Don't get me wrong, I want him to succeed in helping to save the world. But dismissing the idea of the long term in the process sounds to me more like Roy's willing to throw every OTHER world under the cosmic bus, if needed. You're unlikely to get another chance like this to permanently stabilizing everything. Strikes me as a bit weird he's being so dismissive about that.

Roy is unwilling to make a real sacrifice for an hypothetical gain. That is a perfectly reasonnable approach. What he is objection to isn't "Let this world be destroyed and save the next one forever" but "let this world be destroyed on the off-chance that maybe the next one will be saved forever".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Loki said that they should hte last gate fall they would still have time to unmake the world

I got the feeling (and to be perfectly clear, this is all headcanon) that Loki is glossing over a number of issues here, known to all the gods, that makes his plan viable but less than ideal. For example, and these are off the top of my head:

1) Those 10-15 minutes are good enough to save a lot of people, but not all the people. It resembles not so much a calm, orderly deconstruction process of the world as it does the final round of Supermarket Sweep*.

b) The 10-15 minute period while the Snarl is not quite "out" doesn't stop the Snarl from projecting his noodly appendages all over the damn place (heck, we know that is already the case), which means depending on where that happens, a lot of souls might get annihilated before the gods can fully react - except instead of only happening where the rifts are now, it can happen literally anywhere. Middle of a populated city, say. Sure, a small percentage risk, but if it happens to be a major center of your faith, it is less than ideal, and some gods might have been burnt by this in the past, and thus aren't thrilled by Loki's laisez-faire approach to the chances that happens again

iii) Waiting to the very end might actually put the gods in a bigger danger, because for whatever hand-wavy reason, waiting to the very last moment puts them in closer proximity to the Snarl than if they unmade the world right now. Nothing that can't be managed, but unpleasant encounter with their own mortality.

Now, would some of the gods point this out if given the chance? Yes, they would, and they have in the past, and they all know this, because they've done this a quadrillion times before... but in this current world, the rules are one speech per vote, not open discussion, so we get only the cliffs notes, which is "it can be done in the 15 minutes between last gate failure and Snarl out in force"

Grey Wolf

* That's the show where contestants had five minutes to roam a supermarket with trolleys, and got to keep everything they managed to pile in the trolley. Which I'm horrified to have learnt just now from the wiki that it is being resurrected.

[The MunchKING]

I got the feeling (and to be perfectly clear, this is all headcanon) that Loki is glossing over a number of issues here, known to all the gods, that makes his plan viable but less than ideal. For example, and these are off the top of my head:

1) Those 10-15 minutes are good enough to save a lot of people, but not all the people. It resembles not so much a calm, orderly deconstruction process of the world as it does the final round of Supermarket Sweep*.

* That's the show where contestants had five minutes to roam a supermarket with trolleys, and got to keep everything they managed to pile in the trolley. Which I'm horrified to have learnt just now from the wiki that it is being resurrected.

Man I remember the kids' version from when I was a kid, the Nickelodeon Super Toy Run!

[Kantaki]

That's the show where contestants had five minutes to roam a supermarket with trolleys, and got to keep everything they managed to pile in the trolley. Which I'm horrified to have learnt just now from the wiki that it is being resurrected.

I mean all they have to do is putting up cameras.
Everything else is already taken care of.

Though, all things considered, adding a few rules and oversight might actually improve the situation.

[KorvinStarmast]

Even if they could, the remaining claim is for less than twenty-five minutes, while the ritual takes a few weeks to finish.
It's very likely that the IFCC has a few nasty tricks up their sleeves, of course, but this is probably not one of them.

Wait a sec, has V told Roy that V owes to the IFCC two more disappearances, unannounced, in the near future?
I can't recall seeing that revelation on screen.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait a sec, has V told Roy that V owes to the IFCC two more disappearances, unannounced, in the near future?
I can't recall seeing that revelation on screen.

It was during that tête-à-tête in which V was hoping for moral advice on their deal with IFCC, and Roy centered on the practical issues because he can't wrap his head around the moral aspect of it.

ETA: found and linked

Grey Wolf

[Quizatzhaderac]

Wait a sec, has V told Roy that V owes to the IFCC two more disappearances, unannounced, in the near future?
I can't recall seeing that revelation on screen.

Ze has. First panel before they get into all the genocide stuff.

[Reathin]

Someone being old and powerful and having done a lot of stuff is not proof there are right. This is an argument from authority fallacy. It's not even a good one given that the gods disagree on what the right course of action is.
Which is hardly surprising given that the gods are moulded by mortal belief in their sphere. Vafthrudnir is the god of secrets so he goes with the option that results in the fewer people being in the know. That's hardly good decision-making. And so on.

You know, that's fair. They are shaped by mortal belief, and their logic is, in more than a few cases, petty and stupid. I think I'm mostly latching onto the ones who argue for the overall safety of eternal souls, which I would personally prioritize. So I'm likely projecting a fair bit here.

Not as sure about the argument from authority fallacy (in principle), as I'm not saying the gods have to be right because they're powerful and old. I'm objecting to the idea of causally dismissing an outrageous amount of direct experience on the matter. But my position is heavily weakened by the aforementioned pettiness they display. Basically, I'm struggling to reconcile their behavior with the idea of billion+ year old entities who have done this very thing millions of times.

That Eugene formulated it has no bearing on the truth of his proposition. If Jack the reaper argued that diseases were transmmitted by invisible tiny creatures, he would be right even though he cut in people in pieces.

I'm not saying it's wrong because it was Eugene that said it (I have a particular annoyance with dismissal of that sort. I've been burned by that before). I'm saying that Eugene's particular personality and obsessions put his objectivity heavily in question on this matter, and therefore it probably shouldn't be accepted without further examination. Calling deities super wizards feel to me like an attempt to group himself into proximity, or bring down unimaginably potent and ancient entities to his level to feel good about himself. Maybe that's not his intent (even subconsciously). But I would DEFINITELY say that deities are more than just super wizards. By saying "they're just wizards with crowdsourced magic", it's trying to say that the latter is just an extension or plugin, not a fundamental different order of being. By that logic, you could say that humans are "a pile of carbon and some other substances that learned to speak".

I don't think I'll be winning any awards for that analogy, but I'm guessing you see what I'm getting at.

Roy is unwilling to make a real sacrifice for an hypothetical gain. That is a perfectly reasonnable approach. What he is objection to isn't "Let this world be destroyed and save the next one forever" but "let this world be destroyed on the off-chance that maybe the next one will be saved forever".

That's not really the argument I was making. Roy is willing to sacrifice Redcloak to keep this world going...except it won't. He seems to think he's sacrificing the god's plan for the current world, but as far as we know (and, if Durkon filled him in, as far as Roy knows too), the world will not last much longer if the gate situation isn't stabilized properly, with a 4 colour seal. It is almost certainly impossible for the Dark One to raise another powerful cleric to 17th level in time before the Snarl breaks out. If that happens, the Dark One will either die directly or (very likely) starve while they wait out the apocalypse. No Redcloak, no Purple Quiddity, no seal, world is gone in short order (either by the gods, which spares souls, or the Snarl, which won't). And then, if the Dark One passes, no chance for the next world. It's sacrificing the current AND future ones if Redcloak dies.

I should also point out that Redcloak still needs to be STOPPED, of course. If the Snarl becomes the Dark One's rabid attack dog, the situation doesn't really improve much if it's unleashed. But Roy seems willing to kill Redcloak to do that if need be, and that would be checkmate.

[Fyraltari]

One more argument:
As Roy pointed out back during #999, the gods are the ones who stand to lose the less in this matter (with an exception for Hel and the Dark One maybe), si it really ought not to be their call to make.

You know, that's fair. They are shaped by mortal belief, and their logic is, in more than a few cases, petty and stupid. I think I'm mostly latching onto the ones who argue for the overall safety of eternal souls, which I would personally prioritize. So I'm likely projecting a fair bit here.

Not as sure about the argument from authority fallacy (in principle), as I'm not saying the gods have to be right because they're powerful and old. I'm objecting to the idea of causally dismissing an outrageous amount of direct experience on the matter. But my position is heavily weakened by the aforementioned pettiness they display. Basically, I'm struggling to reconcile their behavior with the idea of billion+ year old entities who have done this very thing millions of times.

That’s precisely it, I think. Maybe they used to care but after the millionth time they’ve become dulled to it. Every time they make a word they assume it will go kaboom like the others so getting emotionally invested the way Thor does is asking to be hurt the next time around.

As for the experience argument, it would hold some water if they agreed with each other but they don’t.
Also their experience matters very little since this is the first time they’ve been in a situation where ending the cycle was a possibility.

I'm not saying it's wrong because it was Eugene that said it (I have a particular annoyance with dismissal of that sort. I've been burned by that before). I'm saying that Eugene's particular personality and obsessions put his objectivity heavily in question on this matter, and therefore it probably shouldn't be accepted without further examination. Calling deities super wizards feel to me like an attempt to group himself into proximity, or bring down unimaginably potent and ancient entities to his level to feel good about himself. Maybe that's not his intent (even subconsciously).

Possibly, but you would agree these are not the reasons Roy and Julia (okay maybe her, we don’t know) share that sentiment, right ?

But I would DEFINITELY say that deities are more than just super wizards.

How so? Remember that Thor himself compares his one-essence creations to what a wizard would make (Panel 6).

By saying "they're just wizards with crowdsourced magic", it's trying to say that the latter is just an extension or plugin, not a fundamental different order of being.

The only way they are of a different nature is in that they are made of thoughts rather than flesh which would point to giving their opinions less weight.

By that logic, you could say that humans are "a pile of carbon and some other substances that learned to speak".

I don’t see the issue, that’s a perfectly valid description.

That's not really the argument I was making. Roy is willing to sacrifice Redcloak to keep this world going...except it won't. He seems to think he's sacrificing the god's plan for the current world, but as far as we know (and, if Durkon filled him in, as far as Roy knows too), the world will not last much longer if the gate situation isn't stabilized properly, with a 4 colour seal. It is almost certainly impossible for the Dark One to raise another powerful cleric to 17th level in time before the Snarl breaks out.

I’d like to know how you came to that conclusion. The gates held for sixty years and none fell by itself. If Redcloak and Xykon died, who can say how long the fifth Gate can hold the Snarl (remember that Roy does not know that the Snarl is beginning to reach through)? Long enough to repair the others? Maybe.
Now remember that Roy is only arguing for killing Red if that becomes necessary to save the current world. What situations would that be? Ref attempting the Ritual and Red breaking the Gate are the only ones I can think of. In which case killing Red is definitely the right course of action.


Also all of that will be rendered (gods)moot as the explanation of the World-Within-The-Rift will inevitably change the situation completely.

[danielxcutter]

It sounds more like “If it comes down to either killing him or Xykon messing with the Snarl, I’ll have to kill him”, really.

[InvisibleBison]

How so? Remember that Thor himself compares his one-essence creations to what a wizard would make (Panel 6).

In the very panel you're quoting, Thor says that single-quiddity creations are better than what a wizard could make.

[Fyraltari]

In the very panel you're quoting, Thor says that single-quiddity creations are better than what a wizard could make.

‘Little better’ means there is almost no difference. Nobody said Thor was the exact same as a mortal wizard.