Point Blank Shot Prerequisites

[Nightwalker]

I'm currently considering house ruling this feat out of most prerequisites. Defensive Archery would be the only one I'd keep it in for as I'm looking now.

It just seems ridiculus to require anyone who plans to seriously use a bow to get this feat. Melee's aren't required to get a feat that gives them a +1 vs Visible Opponents so why should ranged have to get a feat that gives them a +1 when inside of their range increment (for most ranged weapons).

It also helps if you can allow your (non-human) lvl 1 archer to get Precise Shot.

Just wanting to see others opinions as to whether this will break things, or if it makes things more fair to the archers.

[Logic Cannon]

Point blank shot is a fair early-level feat, but it's mostly a prerequisite stepping stone. Much like Dodge and the like, some early feats are quite poor later, but it's what you've got to do. While it may seem obvious that archers aren't as competitive at dealing damage as melee characters tend to be, they're also safe from most enemy counterattacks, so that is something else to consider.

If you think you've got it bad, think of the 1st level melee classes who pick up power attack just to get to cleave - power attack isn't even useful until your BAB has gotten high enough to reliably hit.

[Saph]

The only drawback I can see is that Precise Shot and Rapid Shot are both excellent archery feats, so now there's even less reason not to take them if your character spends any time using a bow. Having to take the mediocre Point Blank Shot balances them out slightly. But then, archery isn't the strongest way to deal damage, so this isn't a huge deal.

You're also going to see a whole lot of sorcerers, wizards, warmages, and warlocks suddenly taking Precise Shot so that they can shoot rays into melee without worry. This rule probably benefits them more than anyone else.

- Saph

[Logic Cannon]

Edit: ignore this. Connectivity problems caused multiple posting. Delete as necessary.

[Amiria]

My RL group has the following house rule:

Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are merged into one feat ... named Precise Shot.

Why we made it ? One was because of Rangers in 3.0, they had/others needed Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting for melee and Ambidexterity was merged into TWF in 3.5. So we did something similar for the equally suboptimal ranged combat style. Two is because they are similar ... they are both basic archery feats, both help to enhance precision.

[Kompera]

I'm currently considering house ruling this feat out of most prerequisites. Defensive Archery would be the only one I'd keep it in for as I'm looking now.

It just seems ridiculus to require anyone who plans to seriously use a bow to get this feat. Melee's aren't required to get a feat that gives them a +1 vs Visible Opponents so why should ranged have to get a feat that gives them a +1 when inside of their range increment (for most ranged weapons).

That's not entirely accurate. First, you're applying your own set of values to what constitutes "serious use" of a bow. Second, there is no requirement for any user of a bow to take Point Blank Shot. Third, Weapon Focus is the melee equivalent for Point Blank Shot, and it is indeed a prerequisite for three (in core) other melee feats. Sure, PBS is a prerequisite for more feats than WF, but shooting things down at a range has a lot of advantages which being up and close in melee does not. Such as, unless your opponent has a ranged attack you're delivering unanswered damage.

[Suzaku]

I hate the fact you can't take Precise shot at first level. Because as an archer you're effectively -4 to hit in a group (or -3 to hit if you're within 30 feet). It's like a dex base rogue would have accuracy problems in melee.

[Proven_Paradox]

If you think you've got it bad, think of the 1st level melee classes who pick up power attack just to get to cleave - power attack isn't even useful until your BAB has gotten high enough to reliably hit.

I must contest this statement. Unlike, say, Dodge or Point Blank Shot, Power Attack becomes massively more useful as you go. Sure, at really low levels, you get more milage out of cleave, but in the end, if you're in melee often, you NEED to have Power Attack, at least eventually.

[skywalker]

If you think you've got it bad, think of the 1st level melee classes who pick up power attack just to get to cleave - power attack isn't even useful until your BAB has gotten high enough to reliably hit.

PA gets better, cleave gets worse as you go up in levels. Power attack is a great feat, the OP doesn't particularly enjoy the bonus granted by PBS. I say, it's another +1 to hit, I'd go for it.

Another reason to consider is that it makes sense as a prerequisite. You gotta learn to shoot stuff up close before you can learn to shoot precisely, or at a distance, or rapidly.

[Suzaku]

PA gets better, cleave gets worse as you go up in levels. Power attack is a great feat, the OP doesn't particularly enjoy the bonus granted by PBS. I say, it's another +1 to hit, I'd go for it.

Another reason to consider is that it makes sense as a prerequisite. You gotta learn to shoot stuff up close before you can learn to shoot precisely, or at a distance, or rapidly.

A counter argument would you should learn accuracy prior to going for extra power. Especially if you're in a group, you don't want to hit your allies when they're fighting an enemy. Once you're confident in hitting a target then you can go for the extra damage.

Another reason is that you're -4 to hit until level 3 or be a fighter.

[Nightwalker]

I like the idea of combining Point Blank Shot with Precise Shot, it makes it easier instead of removing it from all prerequisites its more useful and actually an essential feat. Though this would probably be too powerful of a feat, remove a penalty and get a bonus in one feat... Or wait I just described Improved Grapple, Improved Trip... (Not really trying to be sarcastic, was a realization as I typed) So combined should be good, and will appease my archers. Thanks for everyones input.

[skywalker]

A counter argument would you should learn accuracy prior to going for extra power. Especially if you're in a group, you don't want to hit your allies when they're fighting an enemy. Once you're confident in hitting a target then you can go for the extra damage.

Another reason is that you're -4 to hit until level 3 or be a fighter.

Or be human.

I always saw the +1 to attack rolls coming from more precise accuracy at close ranges. Think about it, it's gotta be really, really hard to hit someone who is moving in and out, swinging swords with your buddy. I think it would probably take extra training beyond normal accuracy training. I also saw the +1 to damage as just the shooter being able to pick out a better spot to shoot due to being within 30ft(also the limit for precision damage at range), not as someone being able to apply more power. How on earth would you get more power out of a crossbow due to being within 30ft?

[Suzaku]

Or be human.

I always saw the +1 to attack rolls coming from more precise accuracy at close ranges. Think about it, it's gotta be really, really hard to hit someone who is moving in and out, swinging swords with your buddy. I think it would probably take extra training beyond normal accuracy training. I also saw the +1 to damage as just the shooter being able to pick out a better spot to shoot due to being within 30ft(also the limit for precision damage at range), not as someone being able to apply more power. How on earth would you get more power out of a crossbow due to being within 30ft?

You would still need the better accuracy to actually hit the appropriate spot then, especially if someone else is in melee. If you're not confident in avoiding hitting something five feet away you shouldn't be able to hit the specific spot anyway.

[Hyfigh]

???

Melee'ers are (mostly) required to have either Power Attack or Weapon Focus for a majority of their feats or PrC enteries.

I guess I don't get it...

[Shhalahr Windrider]

You would still need the better accuracy to actually hit the appropriate spot then, especially if someone else is in melee. If you're not confident in avoiding hitting something five feet away you shouldn't be able to hit the specific spot anyway.

But Point Blank Shot is about developing better accuracy. That's why you're getting the bonus to-hit and damage. Really, Precise Shot is a conceptual extension of Point Blank Shot. The type of Accuracy you gain with Point Blank Shot is the first stepping stone to the greater precision offered by Precise Shot and Far Shot. That is why it is a prerequisite for the latter two feats.

[Saph]

It's not as though Point Blank Shot is a terrible feat, either. Sure, it's not amazing, but since most combat in D&D tends to be at short ranges, +1 to hit and damage within 30 feet will be useful fairly often.

- Saph

[shadowdemon_lord]

First of all, I'd like to state I don't think ranged attacks are "inferior", their are plenty of good fighter/ranger PrC's for them, and the cleric archer is a terror to behold, even after they ruled that the greater magic arrows didn't stack with the greater magic weapon bow when they converted to 3.5. That stated, low level characters suck, across the board, get over it. In fact, I think despite (actually because of) the low attack bonuses that you have at low levels having two attacks a round (rapid shot) (easily achievable by level two if your a ranger or a fighter, and if your not you've got some specific build in mind that will come into it's own later [mayve you're a rogue that's going to UMD scrolls of greater insivisibility, or you're going to be clericzilla) is a boon simply because you get to roll two d20's when everyone else gets to roll one. AC's are usually low enough at that level that you'll connect with anything on the battlefield with a lucky roll. Also, for all you archer types whining that OMG I can't hit anything engaged in melee because my attack bonuses suck, attack something not in melee if you can, there are usually targets somewhere on the battlefield.

Also, taking away the pre-reqs just takes more power away from the fighter and ranger classes (and the human race), as they are the ones that can get the big three archery feats (point blank, precise, and rapid) at low levels, and gives more power to casters (what, you mean not taking a -4 penalty on my attack rolls with my rays into melee is now just one feat? sign me up!).