Commonly misunderstood rules

[NaughtyTiger]

For combat after it's started? No.

But if you're the DM, and you say "Everyone make Perception, at Disadvantage."
The party knows that they're about to be screwed by something. Lighting matters, before the fight has even started.

If the DM doesn't use enemies that Stealth, or traps...Then no, Lightning probably doesn't matter. But that's on your DM, not the game.

Of course, the players know that other creatures have Disadvantage on Perception, so when they Stealth, it's also easier, too.

eh, i disagree. stealth and traps aren't particularly effective against an elven rogue with observant. adding traps in that case generally means the rogue makes more rolls, while i go get a coke. i do like that not knowing a thing about my party or our games, you blamed the DM...

I don't see how this is a relevant question. There are no rules for having more difficulty moving over difficult terrain in dim lighting than bright lighting. Other than inability to see to avoid hitting walls and other barriers, I don't even know if there are rules other than "you move at half speed" when blind/in total darkness.

stout was justifying the combat rules based on real life "With that kind of lighting you could clearly see someone standing in the open but you probably will have a hard time identifying the exact color of their clothing."

i misunderstood, i thought stout mentioned that i can see someone in moonlight with respect to real life. no, he was just stating in the game rules that there is no penalty for combat in dim light.

i was pointing out that dim light should have an effect on combat in real life. thus justifying why i liked dim light affecting combat in the game.

[Keltest]

I don't see how this is a relevant question. There are no rules for having more difficulty moving over difficult terrain in dim lighting than bright lighting. Other than inability to see to avoid hitting walls and other barriers, I don't even know if there are rules other than "you move at half speed" when blind/in total darkness.

Also, speaking from experience, yes. Under the light of a full moon or nearly full moon, the ground is quite visible. I wouldn't want to sprint across it, but I wouldn't want to do that in daylight either.

[stoutstien]

are you saying that it is just as easy to walk down a rocky path in moonlight as it is during broad daylight?

In DND 5e? Yep just as easily.

[NaughtyTiger]

In DND 5e? Yep just as easily.

my bad, i thought your were saying that dim light wouldn't have any effect on combat by basing on real life. instead you are just stating the game rules.

yes, i am aware that the game rules do not have penalties for walking or combat in dim light.
i figured that was clear since i stated that i was aware of those rules.

i amended my previous posts to clarify that you weren't talking about the real world, just restating the game rules for some reason.

[Man_Over_Game]

Action Surge [...] allow someone to take a second bonus action in a round. I still get people insisting on this, sometimes the same people that me or someone else corrected six or twelve or eighteen months ago.

Actually, the reason for that is a lot more complicated than you think.

Originally, Action Surge was printed with mentioning "Bonus Action", but not that it gave you one. It said something like "You get an extra Action, and you still get your Bonus Action". If I had to wager a guess, the pre-release Action Surge may have cost you your Bonus Action to use, and they later decided to change it and make sure Action Surge reflected that change.

The mention of a Bonus Action was removed in later printings...but the change was never mentioned in any Errata. So players with older books get something really ambiguous, and players with newer books think those other players are just crazy.

[stoutstien]

my bad, i thought your were saying that dim light wouldn't have any effect on combat by basing on real life. instead you are just stating the game rules.

yes, i am aware that the game rules do not have penalties for walking or combat in dim light.
i figured that was clear since i stated that i was aware of those rules.

i amended my previous posts to clarify that you weren't talking about the real world, just restating the game rules for some reason.

Vision rules as a whole are a mess because they are all based on very vague parameters. Dim light does not interfere with attacking in the game because dim light is still enough illumination to make that attack but is dim enough to interfere with perception.

That volume of light is probably visualized at different levels for each person but the rules act as a guideline.

[Keltest]

Actually, the reason for that is a lot more complicated than you think.

Originally, Action Surge was printed with mentioning "Bonus Action", but not that it gave you one. It said something like "You get an extra Action, and you still get your Bonus Action". If I had to wager a guess, the pre-release Action Surge may have cost you your Bonus Action to use, and they later decided that was a bad idea.

The mention of a Bonus Action was removed in later printings...but the change was never mentioned in any Errata. So players with older books get something really ambiguous, and players with newer books think those other players are just crazy.

The exact text in mine is "You can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action."

[Demonslayer666]

Casting a second spell on your turn. I still can't get this one right.

Many actions from previous editions still trip up my group. They want to 5' step and act, or do stuff in place of their move action.

[NaughtyTiger]

Vision rules as a whole are a mess because they are all based on very vague parameters. Dim light does not interfere with attacking in the game because dim light is still enough illumination to make that attack but is dim enough to interfere with perception.

That volume of light is probably visualized at different levels for each person but the rules act as a guideline.

again, thanks for restating the rules.
for anyone who is still unsure: in 5e, dim light does not affect attack rolls, dim light does affect perception rolls.

[Man_Over_Game]

Casting a second spell on your turn. I still can't get this one right.

Simply put, if you cast any spell with your Bonus Action, all other spells you cast in the same turn must be cantrips.

That's it. Anything using Sorcerer Metamagics or Action Surge all obey that one rule.

[Demonslayer666]

Simply put, if you cast any spell with your Bonus Action, all other spells you cast in the same turn must be cantrips.

That's it. Anything using Sorcerer Metamagics or Action Surge all obey that one rule.

That makes it sound like you can cast any two spells you want using Action Surge, as long as you don't use a bonus action.

[Ashrym]

Combining magical effects. -- 2 walls of fire or 2 spirit guardians in the same area do not do damage multiple times. The strongest version is the one that applies.

[Keltest]

That makes it sound like you can cast any two spells you want using Action Surge, as long as you don't use a bonus action.

More simply put: You get one non-cantrip spell per turn, period, no matter how many actions you get, or of what kind of action.

[DarknessEternal]

Very much this. Just because you broke line of sight doesn't mean that the enemy forget you exist. It applies to general stealth rolls as well, the number of times that someone has said "I want to Stealth" then can't answer me as to HOW they are trying to sneak past is rather large. Saying you are stealthing and rolling a check means nothing if you have no legitimate way to do it.

I think you're misunderstanding how hiding works in 5e. It's not some kind of vanishing invisibility.

In 5e rules, if you hide when someone knows you're there. They still know you're there. They simply have disadvantage on attack rolls against you while you have advantage on attack rolls against them (in combat). Hiding in combat rules in 5e exist explicitly to allow Rogues to sneak attack.

[MaxWilson]

That makes it sound like you can cast any two spells you want using Action Surge, as long as you don't use a bonus action.

You can. You can also cast a Reaction spell + Action spell. (Hold Monster + Counterspell, or Dimension Door + Feather Fall, etc.)

But you cannot cast a Reaction Spell + Bonus Action spell. No justification is given, but you can't, unless the DM decides that is dumb and changes the rule.

More simply put: You get one non-cantrip spell per turn, period, no matter how many actions you get, or of what kind of action.

That is not the rule.

[Keltest]

I think you're misunderstanding how hiding works in 5e. It's not some kind of vanishing invisibility.

In 5e rules, if you hide when someone knows you're there. They still know you're there. They simply have disadvantage on attack rolls against you while you have advantage on attack rolls against them (in combat). Hiding in combat rules in 5e exist explicitly to allow Rogues to sneak attack.

So, kinda sorta. If you successfully hide from somebody, they don't know where you are. They can guess and deduce, and if they happen to guess right, they can make their attack with disadvantage, but if you duck behind a hedge, hide, and they assume youre continuing to move along the hedge when youre actually standing still and shoot where you aren't, theyre never going to hit you.

The DM decides what circumstances are appropriate for hiding, so if youre on a flat plane that is well lit and has one visual obstacle, you may be able to hide behind it, but theyre still going to know where you are, and no DM will let you sneak out from behind that blocker unless youre literally invisible. But if its a cluttered area and you can duck behind things without making a sound, then you can theoretically move around skyrim style without them knowing where you are at all.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think a better way of describing "Hiding" is that you're just taking action to hide what you're doing. That might mean you get Advantage on your next attack, or that you've moved to another location, or that you've made yourself scarce.

But overall, it just means that the enemy doesn't know what you're doing next. Hiding doesn't interact with anything you or your enemy did do, only what they will do.

[Segev]

I think a better way of describing "Hiding" is that you're just taking action to hide what you're doing. That might mean you get Advantage on your next attack, or that you've moved to another location, or that you've made yourself scarce.

But overall, it just means that the enemy doesn't know what you're doing next. Hiding doesn't interact with anything you or your enemy did do, only what they will do.

It's pretty clear that Hiding makes them not able to see you. Or pick out your presence by hearing or other senses, for that matter. They might still know (or at least suspect) you're around. They might guess - even possibly accurately - where you're hiding. But they can't perceive you.

[Pex]

Proficiency in a skill is not permission to use said skill. You may perform the skill even when you don't have proficiency. Also, please, don't only have the PC with the highest modifier make the check. If you want to do something, do it. Don't ask who is better then sigh and have that player roll. Not everything in the game is DC you'll never make it if you don't have a high plus number. DCs can be 10 even your measly +1 to a skill means you have a decent chance to succeed when a roll is called.

[Keltest]

Proficiency in a skill is not permission to use said skill. You may perform the skill even when you don't have proficiency. Also, please, don't only have the PC with the highest modifier make the check. If you want to do something, do it. Don't ask who is better then sigh and have that player roll. Not everything in the game is DC you'll never make it if you don't have a high plus number. DCs can be 10 even your measly +1 to a skill means you have a decent chance to succeed when a roll is called.

So, if youre trying to pick a lock, theres no reason at all to let anybody besides the proficient rogue with the highest dex in the party do it, if theyre there to try. That's what you brought them for. Making a medicine check? Let the party doctor do it. Tracking? Let the ranger do it. Having the wizard try to track something just because they were the one who thought of it is silly, you have experts in these skills for a reason.

[MaxWilson]

It's pretty clear that Hiding makes them not able to see you. Or pick out your presence by hearing or other senses, for that matter. They might still know (or at least suspect) you're around. They might guess - even possibly accurately - where you're hiding. But they can't perceive you.

Yes, otherwise traits like Wood Elf Mask of the Wild are useless.

So, if youre trying to pick a lock, theres no reason at all to let anybody besides the proficient rogue with the highest dex in the party do it, if theyre there to try. That's what you brought them for. Making a medicine check? Let the party doctor do it. Tracking? Let the ranger do it. Having the wizard try to track something just because they were the one who thought of it is silly, you have experts in these skills for a reason.

If a fighter and a thief who both know lockpicking are both breaking into a castle and casing the joint and the fighter finds a locked bedroom, what is the harm in the fighter quietly attempting to pick the lock before bashing the door down or calling the thief over just because he has Expertise? There may not even be anything interesting in the bedroom, and if it turns out to be unexpected difficult to open you can always call the thief's attention to it.

If a wizard is conversing with an NPC and she seems reticent to speak of a matter, what's the harm in gently cajoling her to share her thoughts instead of calling over the party bard to cajole her for you? The wizard may not be a dashing Romeo but he's not a leper or a social outcast either, and he's already in the conversation.

There's value in autonomy and getting to just declare actions that interest you, even if someone else would have been statistically better at those actions had they chosen to do them instead.

[Segev]

Proficiency in a skill is not permission to use said skill. You may perform the skill even when you don't have proficiency. Also, please, don't only have the PC with the highest modifier make the check. If you want to do something, do it. Don't ask who is better then sigh and have that player roll. Not everything in the game is DC you'll never make it if you don't have a high plus number. DCs can be 10 even your measly +1 to a skill means you have a decent chance to succeed when a roll is called.

By the same token, DMs should be encouraged to just allow things to succeed if there's no compelling reason why they shouldn't. There's a judgment call here, of course, but even if there's a reasonable chance of failure, if the failure is just a frustration, don't bother with it.

They should also consider, sometimes, just allowing those proficient in appropriate things to succeed for being proficient.

[Garfunion]

Spellcasting Ability Modifier, and Spell Attack, are the same thing. "Look at the table!"
No. Have you tried reading the block text? It tells you what your spellcasting ability is... Twice!
"But the table says..."

I think I may need a little more of an explanation on this. What was the player trying to do?

[MaxWilson]

I think I may need a little more of an explanation on this.

Do you need an explanation of the spell attack rules, or an explanation of how anyone could possibly misunderstand the spell attack rules?

I might need the latter...

[Garfunion]

an explanation of how anyone could possibly misunderstand the spell attack rules?

This right here

I might need the latter...

This is also worrisome.

[NaughtyTiger]

Combining magical effects. -- 2 walls of fire or 2 spirit guardians in the same area do not do damage multiple times. The strongest version is the one that applies.

whether one creatures can be charmed by 2 different creatures at the same time.
please don't argue it in this thread.

[Chaos Jackal]

Actually, the reason for that is a lot more complicated than you think.

Originally, Action Surge was printed with mentioning "Bonus Action", but not that it gave you one. It said something like "You get an extra Action, and you still get your Bonus Action". If I had to wager a guess, the pre-release Action Surge may have cost you your Bonus Action to use, and they later decided to change it and make sure Action Surge reflected that change.

The mention of a Bonus Action was removed in later printings...but the change was never mentioned in any Errata. So players with older books get something really ambiguous, and players with newer books think those other players are just crazy.

Oh, I am fully aware. It used to be "you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action". The wording is ambiguous. The text is the most common argument I've heard. However, there's no ambiguity left once you check the bonus action rules, as there's actually no reading of the sentence that can lead to two bonus actions (a bonus action might be available, hence the "possible" part, but you don't have one by default, so no extra from Action Surge either).

I'd expect people who have been playing this game for years to have finally understood how bonus actions work, or have asked/checked online or whatever and get over said ambiguity. But very often I see that they don't.

And let's say Action Surge is kind of justifiable. Kind of. But the amount of times I've had to mention that Cunning Action doesn't allow you to disengage on top of attacking with your offhand weapon is unreal. Hell, I've even had a DM once who insisted on it, finally came around and then, a few months later, when a new rogue player joined, started preaching about it all over again.

[Keltest]

Oh, I am fully aware. It used to be "you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action". The wording is ambiguous. The text is the most common argument I've heard. However, there's no ambiguity left once you check the bonus action rules, as there's actually no reading of the sentence that can lead to two bonus actions (a bonus action might be available, hence the "possible" part, but you don't have one by default, so no extra from Action Surge either).

I'd expect people who have been playing this game for years to have finally understood how bonus actions work, or have asked/checked online or whatever and get over said ambiguity. But very often I see that they don't.

And let's say Action Surge is kind of justifiable. Kind of. But the amount of times I've had to mention that Cunning Action doesn't allow you to disengage on top of attacking with your offhand weapon is unreal. Hell, I've even had a DM once who insisted on it, finally came around and then, a few months later, when a new rogue player joined, started preaching about it all over again.

That one, I think, is more to do with attacking as an off hand weapon being a bonus action, which I personally think is a little silly. Let us get one swing with the off hand weapon as part of the attack action.

[Segev]

That one, I think, is more to do with attacking as an off hand weapon being a bonus action, which I personally think is a little silly. Let us get one swing with the off hand weapon as part of the attack action.

If nothing else, making the two weapon fighting style or the feat for two weapon fighting do this would have been nice.

[MaxWilson]

They never should have named it "bonus action" because that's entirely misleading. It should have been "minor action" or something, and there should have been a clear description in the combat chapter of what you normally can do on a turn:

1.) One action
2.) One minor action
3.) One object manipulation
4.) Movement up to your current speed
5.) Anything additional which your class features grant you.

Then if it were me writing the rules I would also have written:

In addition, no matter whose turn it is, you may:

1.) Cease concentrating on a spell
2.) Communicate briefly: shouting a warning, identifying a hidden enemy, offering surrender, etc.

but it's probably controversial as whether #2 was actually intended by WotC to be legal.

-Max