OOTS #1196 - The Discussion Thread

[JonahFalcon]

Belkar is inching towards Chaotic Neutral, meaning he's still enjoys wanton murder, but isn't treating teammates like XP sources, and instead as people he hangs with and benefits from -- for now.

He's probably looking at Pandemonium and thinking, "Hrm, I like the look of that place. Pandesmos, it is."

[Phhase]

No, Belkar is not trying to become LG, or to affect his alignment at all. He is pretending to have character growth.

That "faking sincerity" thing is pretty useful too.

In this case, he pretended to have character growth by faking a sincere interest in Vaarsuvius's welfare, but dropped it too soon to be believable.

No, he is not trying to have actual character growth. [He's having character growth, because we tend to slowly become more like the thing we are pretending to be, but he's not trying to grow; he's trying to fake growth.]

It's true he began by pretending to grow as a character, which in turn, caused him to actually grow under the hood as a side effect. However, due to the multiple times he's realized that he's growing for real ("I'm supposed to influence your behavior, not the other way around!", "It's so weird, right? It's not just me?"), I think it's gotten more difficult to definitively say he's just pretending and growing as a side effect anymore. Even if it's just prowling around the edges of not being a caricature of a person, I think his efforts are honest (even if he doesn't understand why he's doing it anymore).

Yes, Belkar is trying.

Very, very trying.

Kehehe

Oh, Peelee, do you say it "Pee-lee" (Similar to Peewee), "Pey-ley" (How I've always imagined it), "Pee-ley", or "Pey-lee"? In the interest of balance, my name goes just like the source word ("feyz") but with a little more f sound to it ("ffeyz"). Can't tell ya how many times people forget that it's two 'h's rather than two 'p's.

He's probably looking at Pandemonium and thinking, "Hrm, I like the look of that place. Pandesmos, it is."

I know this setting doesn't use Greyhawk gods, but I get the feeling that Erythnul's Citadel of Eternal Slaughter would suit Belkar very well.

[Peelee]

Oh, Peelee, do you say it "Pee-lee" (Similar to Peewee), "Pey-ley" (How I've always imagined it), "Pee-ley", or "Pey-lee"? In the interest of balance, my name goes just like the source word ("feyz") but with a little more f sound to it ("ffeyz"). Can't tell ya how many times people forget that it's two 'h's rather than two 'p's.

P. Lee. First initial, last name, spelled phonetically for websites that dislike 4 character names.

[JonahFalcon]

I know this setting doesn't use Greyhawk gods, but I get the feeling that Erythnul's Citadel of Eternal Slaughter would suit Belkar very well.

Well, he definitely doesn't want to go to The Abyss, because he'd stick ochre jelly in his ear canals and claw his eyes out at people eternally asking if they want to go up a level or down a level.

No one goes to the Citadel of Slaughter on purpose, unless they serve Erythnul and seek to join in the deity's eternal slaughter.

I imagine Belkar applying would pretty much be this:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0132.html

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html

Except Erythnul would be explicitly asking Belkar to murder them.

[Ruck]

I don't see any reason to worry. Anyone who'd agree that quickly to never see their family for all eternity (or whatever part of it they're still human for), without even an ounce of regret, probably shouldn't see their family.

It's extremely worrying that a person who would agree so quickly has a family, wife and children, that once depended on him.

No, Belkar is not trying to become LG, or to affect his alignment at all. He is pretending to have character growth.

That "faking sincerity" thing is pretty useful too.

It's true he began by pretending to grow as a character, which in turn, caused him to actually grow under the hood as a side effect. However, due to the multiple times he's realized that he's growing for real ("I'm supposed to influence your behavior, not the other way around!", "It's so weird, right? It's not just me?"), I think it's gotten more difficult to definitively say he's just pretending and growing as a side effect anymore.

I'll go beyond difficult and say it's flat-out wrong to say he's just pretending.

[drazen]

Is it just me or is something just a bit... off... with Julia? It's subtle, but... the arched eyebrow in "Are you going to... do that?" The bit about her thinking Roy thought she was dumb and useless didn't quite fit, either. Finally, their goodbye was different than in Cliffport: "Yeah, you too" isn't quite the same as "Love you, too." Perhaps I am reading too much into it, as it's been 900+ strips and who knows how many years of real time. But perhaps not... that a 17 year old wizard came up with this fancy spell and is eager to advise Roy after not really having given a crap about his questing before seems just a tad *too* convenient. When did Julia even learn about the Blood Oath, anyway? 🤔

[happycrow]

To the extent that dank dagger-wielding slaughter is just a thing he does, no longer his joy in life, I'd say real growth has occurred. His self-image encompasses far more than prior.

[Peelee]

To the extent that dank dagger-wielding slaughter is just a thing he does, no longer his joy in life,

[citation needed]

[The MunchKING]

[citation needed]

Not his ONLY joy maybe, but he's still a simple guy who likes hearing bodies thump.

[Roderick_BR]

Wait, can Julia hear and look at stuff around Roy too? She looked towards Elan when he announced Haley and Vaar's return. I thought she'd just see a fantasmal projection of Roy like Roy sees of her, since it's a back-and-forth continual Sending effect.

[Kantaki]

Wait, can Julia hear and look at stuff around Roy too? She looked towards Elan when he announced Haley and Vaar's return. I thought she'd just see a fantasmal projection of Roy like Roy sees of her, since it's a back-and-forth continual Sending effect.

She might be reacting to Roy looking there.
No need to be able to see or hear what's going on, just reflex/habit.

[The MunchKING]

Maybe she saw him look and followed his line of sight before realizing she couldn't see it? Like if someone suddenly looked behind you and over your shoulder on a video chat call or something. I dunno, just a guess.

[gerryq]

No true halfling would eat his porridge without cinnamon ...
I agree that cinnamon is often a good spice in chili. I make a vegetarian black bean chili every Lent for our suppers at church; and a touch of cinnamon is included. (One must not overdo it, IME, or it may overwhelm the dish).
+1.

Interesting tip. My version of chili has garlic, cumin and obviously lots of chili. But I can see how cinnamon might help.

[bunsen_h]

Interesting tip. My version of chili has garlic, cumin and obviously lots of chili. But I can see how cinnamon might help.

We use cocoa occasionally in our veggie chili. It's a bit odd, to my taste, but makes a nice change from the usual. I suppose it harks back to the original chocolate (Xocolātl), an unsweetened beverage made with hot spices.

[Ruck]

I've seen chili recipes with cinnamon in them. Even made them once or twice. I don't have a personal chili recipe yet, but you'd be surprised what cinnamon can add in the right combination.

We use cocoa occasionally in our veggie chili. It's a bit odd, to my taste, but makes a nice change from the usual. I suppose it harks back to the original chocolate (Xocolātl), an unsweetened beverage made with hot spices.

I haven't tried this yet, but I'm always down for spicy chocolate. I always keep some Aztec chocolate and/or mole bitters handy in my bar. (Speaking of, I haven't found a place with good affordable mole since I moved out of Texas, but I plan to keep trying.)

[The_Weirdo]

I've seen chili recipes with cinnamon in them. Even made them once or twice. I don't have a personal chili recipe yet, but you'd be surprised what cinnamon can add in the right combination.



I haven't tried this yet, but I'm always down for spicy chocolate. I always keep some Aztec chocolate and/or mole bitters handy in my bar. (Speaking of, I haven't found a place with good affordable mole since I moved out of Texas, but I plan to keep trying.)

I mean, I may be regarded as a sociopath, but I am a very good foodie, aren't I?

[happycrow]

YMMV Peelee, but here are my citations:

Strip 1188.
"I was too busy dealing sick freestyle death-daggering to listen to dweeby plot stuff." (Note his use of past tense)

Strip 1191.
Trying a thing that involves actually planning ahead and using teamwork, on his own initiative, and getting his nominal leader's approval to do so (seriously: Belkar checks with Roy for permission to plan?). In a non-seething-with-thoughts-of-revenge kind of way.

Strip 1194.
"All you have to do.... not that I've managed that...."
"Never gave a damn what they thought before..." (clear implication that he has been caring what they think)

1196
Needs to ask for something that's kinda trivial, realizes that he's bungled the timing, tries for a do-over, still cares what V thinks.

Now I freely admit that confirmation bias is a thing and I'm as subject to it as anybody else. But to me, this is set-them-up-and-knock-them-down self-evident.
I see a clear difference here between the guy who has no higher thought than being a Sexy Shoeless God of War, and ... this guy who's realizing that there's a bigger picture he needs to fit into, and is trying to figure out how to do his part. And what alignment is "Let's all do our part?"

So there's "showing my work." It may not be as accurate as my obviously correct MITD idenfitication, but I think it's a defensible hypothesis.

[Peelee]

YMMV Peelee, but here are my citations:

Strip 1188.
"I was too busy dealing sick freestyle death-daggering to listen to dweeby plot stuff." (Note his use of past tense)

He's describing something in the past, so past tense makes sense. He also describes his actions as "sick freestyle death-daggering," which shows his current state of mind on sad actions.

Strip 1191.
Trying a thing that involves actually planning ahead and using teamwork, on his own initiative, and getting his nominal leader's approval to do so (seriously: Belkar checks with Roy for permission to plan?). In a non-seething-with-thoughts-of-revenge kind of way.

Strip 1194.
"All you have to do.... not that I've managed that...."
"Never gave a damn what they thought before..." (clear implication that he has been caring what they think)

1196
Needs to ask for something that's kinda trivial, realizes that he's bungled the timing, tries for a do-over, still cares what V thinks.

None of those show that he doesn't still derive joy from dagger-wielding slaughter, and MunchKING demonstrated a recent strip where he is very clearly getting joy from dagger-wielding slaughter.

Basically, I'm saying that Belkar was forced to Marie Kondo his life, the daggers would top the list of things he ain't ditching.

[danielxcutter]

Who the heck is Marie Kondo?

[Schroeswald]

Who the heck is Marie Kondo?

She's this organizer lady who tells people to get rid of everything that doesn't "spark joy" when they pick it up.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Is it just me or is something just a bit... off... with Julia? It's subtle, but... the arched eyebrow in "Are you going to... do that?" The bit about her thinking Roy thought she was dumb and useless didn't quite fit, either. Finally, their goodbye was different than in Cliffport: "Yeah, you too" isn't quite the same as "Love you, too." Perhaps I am reading too much into it, as it's been 900+ strips and who knows how many years of real time. But perhaps not... that a 17 year old wizard came up with this fancy spell and is eager to advise Roy after not really having given a crap about his questing before seems just a tad *too* convenient. When did Julia even learn about the Blood Oath, anyway? 🤔

She probably started caring about the quest shortly after getting caught up in Roy's adventures. Or when he got killed and she's suddenly looking at having to do the job herself. As for the lore dump, I'd guess Roy filled her in on the deets shortly after he learned about them so she wouldn't be caught flat-footed by it like he was.

[Lheticus]

So has the "Belkar's prophesied 'death' is metaphorical" camp gained any more traction with this and other recent strips? Because I've been in it since around when he got thrown off the mountain but been afraid to admit it. I mean, it seems to me like the Belkar that asked the question (or existed when the question was asked, I forget who exactly asked that in particular) way back when, is becoming more gone, which is to say, to be able to say "THAT Belkar is dead" by the page.

Of course, if that doesn't pan out, I can fall back on the idea of there being extended consequences to taking Death-Worm breath to the face.

[Jasdoif]

So has the "Belkar's prophesied 'death' is metaphorical" camp gained any more traction with this and other recent strips?

The self-delusional hard line hasn't really moved in the past several years, no.

[Peelee]

The biggest mark against it (or, the hardest-to-argue-against for proponents) is a simple "why would the Oracle take such delight in gloating over the guy who killed him not getting any comeuppance at all?"

[skim172]

I mean, I may be regarded as a sociopath, but I am a very good foodie, aren't I?

Just like Hannibal Lecter.


That reminds me - remember to complete your census, everyone!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler: Fyraltari

Show

You might want to tone down the aggression here, Wyrm, no-one is attacking you.

The selective way you cut my post makes me suspicious about your non-malicious intent. If you just want to respond to my argument, why remove part of it, and in a way that casts my argument in a more ridiculous light?

And I maintain that "subtly different understandings" and "technically different" doesn't mean anything. all these words are used to describe strange people with supernatural powers. At most some of them cast the charcter as a vilain.

"Wizard," "warlock," "sorcerer," "druid," and "priest cleric" are all used to describe people with supernatural powers in D&D, too. Does that make them the same?

Magneto is evil. magneto is also good. It all depends on what whoever is writing Magneto feels about him and is using him for.

Ugh, alright. Replace "Magneto" with the dictator I was obviously implying when writing that description.

People are not good nor evil actions are. Trying to cast judgement on someone's entire life, motivations and values is doomed to failure, and frankly, pointless.

When I'm responding to someone who talks about "being good" as its own thing, it's effectively impossible to engage with them without either dismissing their point entirely or accepting oversimplistic descriptions as a practical necessity of conveying your ideas concisely. Obviously nobody is "all good" or "all evil," but the sum total of some people's actions makes them worthy of either praise or condemnation, and simplifying such concepts into "person good" and "person evil" makes it possible to have a conversation about them without requiring several pages of disclaimers and descriptors for each argument.

Which is something you seem to recognize, since you did the same thing in the original post. Not exactly the same, but you did have a thesis about "being good" rather than "doing more good things than bad ones". Almost as if you were simplifying terminology for the rhetorical purpose of not needing a full page of disclaimers and descriptors for every sentence of actual substance. Funny how you complain about me doing that, without thinking twice about you doing the same thing.

I refer you back to: [quote removed because that's how the forum works]

I already responded to this, remember? You're responding to my response to that quote. If you want to argue against my point with the point I was arguing against, you need to explain why my argument was invalid in the first place.

Spoiler: Greenhilt Drama and Growth

Show

What drama?
Eugene: dead. Sara: Dead. Eric: Dead. Roy: Alive, was once dead. Julia: alive.

Eugene is hardly an antagonist for the epic tale; he's a dad (imperfect of course, as are most characters in this story) and he's on Roy's side vis a vis "Xykon needs to die/be stopped." Rich has chosen to portray one form of internal conflict in OoTS as 'daddy issues' for both Haley and Roy, and for Elan in a different style with that "twins separated" thing.

I don't know which is more confusing: Insisting that Eugene can't be a part of Greenhilt family drama because he also wants to destroy Xykon, or insisting that half the family being dead means they can't participate in family drama even though they already have. While dead.

Isn't he supposed to insult Julia? And Julia insults him back? I thought we had established that is what passes for an expression of affection in their screwed-up family?

Can't tell if serious or joke. In case serious: People grow up, people change. Especially when one of those people dies.

It's extremely worrying that a person who would agree so quickly has a family, wife and children, that once depended on him.

...point taken.

Is it just me or is something just a bit... off... with Julia? It's subtle, but... the arched eyebrow in "Are you going to... do that?" The bit about her thinking Roy thought she was dumb and useless didn't quite fit, either. Finally, their goodbye was different than in Cliffport: "Yeah, you too" isn't quite the same as "Love you, too." Perhaps I am reading too much into it, as it's been 900+ strips and who knows how many years of real time. But perhaps not... that a 17 year old wizard came up with this fancy spell and is eager to advise Roy after not really having given a crap about his questing before seems just a tad *too* convenient.

I'm guessing that Julia rethought her relationship with her big brother—her only family member still on the material plane—after he hit the big one, and had some regrets. The death of a family member, even one who you have a rocky relationship with, is as good a time as any to have some big revelations about how much of a jerk you are, and it's likely to have some ramifications on how you treat them if and when they come back.

Besides, now that Julia knows about the Blood Oath, she has a pretty strong motivation to help Roy beat Xykon. ("So I don't have to do it myself in 20 years" is a pretty strong motivator when "it" is destroying an epic-level lich.)

When did Julia even learn about the Blood Oath, anyway? 🤔

...I don't know.

There's just one problem with Belkar cooking: he's really bad at it. He has points in the Profession (gourmet chef) skill, which means he can cook in "a fully stocked professional kitchen". They're on the road on a pirate ship far from any towns where they could get ingredients. To cook there, you need the Survival skill, and Belkar hasn't invested in that at all. The ship's cook can cook better meals than him. Even if Durkon uses a spell to summon "mass-conjured pseudo-food packed with artificial ingredients, it will taste better than what Belkar makes. (Except perhaps when Belkar makes food for Mr. Scruffy or Bloodfeast, because it's possible that those use his Handle Animal skill.)

The solution is obvious. Belkar's going to make cat food for the party.

If that’s what that actually meant, that is in no way any sort of callback, because not only is multitasking not particularly feminine, it’s super wrong to say that the only way a dude could do it is to become a woman.

And even if multitasking was somehow innately feminine, it doesn't count as a callback because multitasking being feminine wasn't ever mentioned in the comic.

This cites an example almost 200 years old.

If the singular "they" taught me anything, it's that language purists won't be dissuaded by examples predating whenever they felt the language was most pure. Which happens to be coincidentally close to the time and region where they grew up.

The biggest mark against it (or, the hardest-to-argue-against for proponents) is a simple "why would the Oracle take such delight in gloating over the guy who killed him not getting any comeuppance at all?"

Because deep down, he's as big of a Belkar fan as the "metaphorical death" camp knows the entire forum is?

[Phhase]

Is it just me or is something just a bit... off... with Julia? It's subtle, but... the arched eyebrow in "Are you going to... do that?" The bit about her thinking Roy thought she was dumb and useless didn't quite fit, either. Finally, their goodbye was different than in Cliffport: "Yeah, you too" isn't quite the same as "Love you, too." Perhaps I am reading too much into it, as it's been 900+ strips and who knows how many years of real time. But perhaps not... that a 17 year old wizard came up with this fancy spell and is eager to advise Roy after not really having given a crap about his questing before seems just a tad *too* convenient. When did Julia even learn about the Blood Oath, anyway? 🤔

Looks like she's had some offscreen character development! After all, remember what Durkon told her? They had a long talk about responsibility and respecting your body, which Julia seems to have taken at least somewhat to heart (Likely in part because of the apparently "catatonic gay dwarf" turning out to be a mighty spellcaster). Note her completely revised hemline! "True Neutral" seems like "Impressionable Teen" in this case, and the titanic bolt of lightning, cacophonous thunderclap, and stern lecture seem to have left quite the impression.

In regard to dumb and useless, I mean, their last interaction was her being a damsel in distress, and that, combined with the standing tension of their father's derision for martial arts over magic, and simple sibling rivalry, seems a sufficient justification for that kind of small insecurity to me.

As for the Oath, I think their parents told them about the it in some capacity. After all, it was the reason this whole adventure began. Roy just didn't know about the consequences in the afterlife (At least, until his dad told him about them/he experienced them for himself). And even if not, Julia's research could conceivably uncovered the truth anyway. This is a (nominally diligent) college student doing QA on their thesis project, after all.

While the change in tune was a little unexpected, it does make sense, to me anyway, and I do like it.

The biggest mark against it (or, the hardest-to-argue-against for proponents) is a simple "why would the Oracle take such delight in gloating over the guy who killed him not getting any comeuppance at all?"

No comeuppance? What about the Mark of Justice and the village of "Lickmyballshalfling"?

[Peelee]

No comeuppance? What about the Mark of Justice and the village of "Lickmyballshalfling"?

The Oracle was brutally murdered and Belkar was sick for a week. Yeah, I'm sure the Oracle considers it even.

No clue how long Belkar was out for, actually.

[Jasdoif]

No comeuppance? What about the Mark of Justice and the village of "Lickmyballshalfling"?

That predated Belkar's "last breath ever" prophecy.

[Phhase]

The Oracle was brutally murdered and Belkar was sick for a week. Yeah, I'm sure the Oracle considers it even.

No clue how long Belkar was out for, actually.

True. But consider that A: the Oracle is used to being brutally murdered, to the point of having an auto-rez squad (see following assertion that his next death will be a brutal mauling via angry druid). And B: has he ever given a straight prophecy with no twist? I'd be disappointed if this one was just simple and straight. Could just be me, though.