4E D&D insider

[Jarlax]

wizards just released a new article regarding the D&D insider service here.

this article has really changed my mind about the service. i don't think i am going to get it. i have my regular game which i DM and i saw this service as a chance for me to sneak an extra game in a week or fortnight as a player.

but the system is just not worth it cost wise. to play a core game i need to subscribe for however much a month ($10-$15 USD) but then i also need to pay again to unlock my PHB and DMG in E-Book form online (there is no redeem code, you enter your book code and then pay the price to unlock the e-book), for a DM there is the additional cost of unlocking his MM because you are not provided with a stat block for the monster unless you have done so. on top of that, how are the e-books distributed? if i choose to end my insider subscription does that lock out access to my e-books?

basically charging an additional fee to unlock your books online after charging you already for the book and again for subscription punishes the people trying to adopt the new system and appear unappealing to players with a traditional group.

[illathid]

I understand why your not pleased about the fee for the e-books, but they have said it won't be too expensive ($1-2 per book). If I'm already spending $20+ on a book, I'd definitely spend another couple of bucks to have e-versions of them as well. I understand why they are charging the fee as well, as it will keep people from just opening the book, entering the code, and not buying the book.

Also, the $10-15 subscription fee not only includes the computer tools, but it also includes a subscription to Dungeon and Dragon as well. If there's a comparable amount of articles released in each issue as there has been in the print magazine, I see it as a great deal. The question then is whether they will allow someone to only subscribe to parts of insider and get a cheaper subscription fee.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Unlocking the book and using D&D Insider are completely separate; you don't need to be subscribed to get the e-Books. What the deal is with the tie in is that new things will show up in the character generator automatically, but the full info won't be available unless you've activated the e-book.

Using 3.5 as an example, say you just bought Tome of Battle.

Didn't activate the book, not subscribed: Look in the book for your info. Not much explanation needed.
Activated the book, not subscribed: You can look in the book or the PDF to get the info. Not much explanation needed here, either.
Subscribed to D&DI, didn't activate the book: In the Character Generator, the names of ToB feats and classes will appear as options. Their information will say something like "Snap Kick: Tome of Battle, page 32." D&DI says exactly where you can look up the info in the book, but doesn't provide it -- useful if you don't want the PDF or are using a friend's book.
Subscribed to D&DI, activated the book: ToB Feats and Classes will appear as options, with their full book text present.

I can certainly see why people aren't interested in D&DI -- I don't expect to subscribe, either -- but this is one aspect of it that's being done pretty much flawlessly.

[horseboy]

Subscribed to D&DI, didn't activate the book: In the Character Generator, the names of ToB feats and classes will appear as options. Their information will say something like "Snap Kick: Tome of Battle, page 32." D&DI says exactly where you can look up the info in the book, but doesn't provide it -- useful if you don't want the PDF or are using a friend's book.
Subscribed to D&DI, activated the book: ToB Feats and Classes will appear as options, with their full book text present.

I can certainly see why people aren't interested in D&DI -- I don't expect to subscribe, either -- but this is one aspect of it that's being done pretty much flawlessly.

Or you could just wait for the net to finish the 4ed of heroforge for free.

[Rowanomicon]

I think I'll most likely subscribe to this, if only for the magazine content.

[Jack Mann]

Indeed. Compared to the cost of a subscription to the old Dragon and Dungeon magazines, this is pretty cheap.

[Fixer]

wizards just released a new article regarding the D&D insider service here.

this article has really changed my mind about the service. i don't think i am going to get it. i have my regular game which i DM and i saw this service as a chance for me to sneak an extra game in a week or fortnight as a player.

but the system is just not worth it cost wise. to play a core game i need to subscribe for however much a month ($10-$15 USD) but then i also need to pay again to unlock my PHB and DMG in E-Book form online (there is no redeem code, you enter your book code and then pay the price to unlock the e-book), for a DM there is the additional cost of unlocking his MM because you are not provided with a stat block for the monster unless you have done so. on top of that, how are the e-books distributed? if i choose to end my insider subscription does that lock out access to my e-books?

basically charging an additional fee to unlock your books online after charging you already for the book and again for subscription punishes the people trying to adopt the new system and appear unappealing to players with a traditional group.

Where are you getting any references to a monthly fee? I see no references to this on the website.

As far as paying for an e-book of an already existing physical copy, I know I have no problems paying for that. I regularly copy by books onto my flash drive so I can review cases as they come up at work.

[Kurald Galain]

I can't read that article, my login doesn't even seem to work any more...

At any rate, I am so not going to play tabletop RPGs using a computer. Not even if it were free.

[Roderick_BR]

I can't read that article, my login doesn't even seem to work any more...

At any rate, I am so not going to play tabletop RPGs using a computer. Not even if it were free.

If you already updated your account to the Gleemax thing, you need to log in with your email, not your account name... yeah, weird.

Ya know, there's something I don't get. Why is everyone so upset with this thing? Really, I don't get it.
You need to pay to unlock your book... what does that mean? Online? Can't I sit at the computer, open my book on my lap, and read it?
The way people are talking, it looks like you can't read your book if you don't have an online account.
I don't think I'll use these online tools simply because I never used (did they even exist before?), and I don't think I'll need to use. Most people I play with plays in person, or through messengers and the like. We use the books as normal.

[Kurald Galain]

Ya know, there's something I don't get. Why is everyone so upset with this thing? Really, I don't get it.

Because of the marketing strategy.

You pay once, you get a crippled version of the site. You are then enticed to pay a second time, to get the non-crippled version. Incidentally, this implies that whenever they implement new functionality for anything, they will charge you for it or stick you with the older, lesser version.

[Dizlag]

I plan on subscribing to D&D Insider for Dungeon and Dragon magazines, but also for the other DM Tools. Not so much the Gaming Table as my games are at a real table with friends that live local. The character vault and campaign vault seem pretty kewl. It will be an interesting place to put up blogs about the campaign for my players. Yeah, I could create an online wiki for them all, but this will be available for me with the subscription.

Another couple dollars for an e-version of the rule books and other material will be worth it for me, especially if I'm paying $30+ for each book as illathid mentioned. So, overall I'm excited about 4th edition and these web resources they're creating.

Dizlag

[Mewtarthio]

Because of the marketing strategy.

You pay once, you get a crippled version of the site. You are then enticed to pay a second time, to get the non-crippled version. Incidentally, this implies that whenever they implement new functionality for anything, they will charge you for it or stick you with the older, lesser version.

Would you prefer it if they charged everyone a higher price? As it is, people who are just fine with what you call the "crippled" version of the site get a discount (and, as far as I can tell, "crippled" just means "you have to look stuff up in the book"). You know who is happy about this marketing strategy? Two types of people: WotC stockholders (people tend to forget that corporations are people with wants and needs, too) and people who only want the basic features (particularly those who wouldn't have paid full price).

[Roderick_BR]

Because of the marketing strategy.

You pay once, you get a crippled version of the site. You are then enticed to pay a second time, to get the non-crippled version. Incidentally, this implies that whenever they implement new functionality for anything, they will charge you for it or stick you with the older, lesser version.

And what if you don't use the site, use only the books? Me and my friends played with only the three first core books for over two years, using Forgotten Realms (AD&D version), and it didn't cause any problems. We didn't have D&D Insider, subscriptions, or anything. As long the splat books are released, I don't see the harm. It's just the "unlock" thing that threw me off a bit, as if a person couldn't enjoy the books without the online stuff.

[illathid]

Roderick_BR

I believe they have said that e-versions will be full-text searchable PDF's. I can't find the quote right now, but they've said that that want to make sure once you've paid for something, it's yours forever. Hopefully that means they'll keep track of our registered e-books and allow us to re-download them in case our versions get lost or corrupted.

[warmachine]

When WotC were presenting at GenCon UK, they were asked how they were going to stop people stealing the activation codes from books in gaming stores. Part of their answer was that paying for the activation made it accountable and the thief can be tracked. Yes, I know that raises more questions but a price does, at least, discourage people stealing from the book before you buy it.

[Kurald Galain]

Would you prefer it if they charged everyone a higher price?

Well, no, because I wouldn't be using D&DI anyway, even if it were free. Note, however, that this "unlocking the books online" means you pay for something that doesn't actually cost WOTC anything.

Aside from that, it strikes me that people who just paid for the physical book would plausibly be annoyed by having to pay again to use their book on-line, and that therefore it would seem to be a better marketing strategy to not make people pay again.

Btw, with "crippled" I mean "deliberately withholding features", not "entirely useless", as explained on Wikipedia.

[illathid]

Aside from that, it strikes me that people who just paid for the physical book would plausibly be annoyed by having to pay again to use their book on-line, and that therefore it would seem to be a better marketing strategy to not make people pay again.

Unless that strategy resulted in people being completely unable to use their e-books as someone else had already entered in the code. I see it as a necessary evil. Plus, it's still cheaper than it is now to buy both a physical copy and get a PDF of it on DriveThruRPG.

[Mewtarthio]

Well, no, because I wouldn't be using D&DI anyway, even if it were free. Note, however, that this "unlocking the books online" means you pay for something that doesn't actually cost WOTC anything.

Consumers pay more than producers all the time. It doesn't cost theaters ten dollars for you to watch a movie, and airlines only have to shell out a few bucks for peanuts and soda if you want to fly. The ticket prices go to the mantainence of the businesses (airplane fuel, movies, etc). The money you pay for registering a book isn't what it costs WotC to send you a PDF; it's part of what WotC spent developing the book in the first place, as well as the costs of keeping D&DI itself running.

Aside from that, it strikes me that people who just paid for the physical book would plausibly be annoyed by having to pay again to use their book on-line, and that therefore it would seem to be a better marketing strategy to not make people pay again.

Why's that? There's really only two things that can happen if they charge someone to register:

1) The customer is annoyed by the price, doesn't believe it's worth it, and simply doesn't pay. He's already bought the book, but he simply doesn't register it. No loss there.
2) The customer doesn't mind the price and registers. That's a gain for WotC.

The only thing that could possibly go wrong would be if a gamer was morally outraged by the registration process and refused to buy and books out of protest. My guess is that such a person would be very rare.

Btw, with "crippled" I mean "deliberately withholding features", not "entirely useless", as explained on Wikipedia.

Ah. Fair enough.

[Kurald Galain]

Why's that? There's really only two things that can happen if they charge someone to register:

Well, I agree it's a good strategy for WOTC to make money. However, I believe this strategy has a side effect of pissing (some) people off, and I question whether WOTC has taken that into account. It's a matter of short term vs. long term, really.

People expect to pay more than cost price for everything. However, people don't necessarily agree to pay anything if the cost price happens to be zero.

[Dizlag]

I don't know of any book, rulebook, novel, or what have you that had a code in it for a free .pdf download. For Savage Worlds, for instance, they have printed books but also have a .pdf version at a reduced cost. If you buy one, you don't have the other. I guess, the only difference here between what WoTC is doing is forcing you to buy the printed version before the .pdf version. And it just so happens, if you've subscribed to D&D Insider ... all the information (classes, feats, races) in that new book will be fully available to you in the DM Tools online.

Personally, I like it. But I really don't see the issue with WoTC "double dipping" for it's books. A printed version and e-version are two totally different products, hence two prices.

Dizlag

[Mewtarthio]

Well, I agree it's a good strategy for WOTC to make money. However, I believe this strategy has a side effect of pissing (some) people off, and I question whether WOTC has taken that into account. It's a matter of short term vs. long term, really.

People rarely give up their favored pastimes because they think other people are (willingly) paying too much.

People expect to pay more than cost price for everything. However, people don't necessarily agree to pay anything if the cost price happens to be zero.

That's not entirely true. It is true in the case that the company has nothing special and anyone could get the item for free. However, that's not the case here. Nobody but WotC can give you the latest splatbook, because WotC has a copyright on the splatbook. The price of registration goes to recovering the costs of developing the splatbook, just as the price of seeing a movie (which, incidentally, costs the theater nothing more than the paper and ink in the ticket, the work of sweeping up a few extra kernels of popcorn, and the slightest degradation of the seat you sat in) goes to recovering the costs of running a theater.

[TSGames]

basically charging an additional fee to unlock your books online after charging you already for the book and again for subscription punishes the people trying to adopt the new system and appear unappealing to players with a traditional group.

I'm not encouraging it, but there are... methods to get the books for free from the internet.

I haven't had my mind changed on this, or any other, on-line service that WotC is providing; I've been unsupportive from beginning, and I think I'll stay that way.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Will people be able to purchase an online-PDF only version of the book? There must be some people out there that would find it handier to have all their materials on a notebook or ibook without buying the hardcopy.

[Mewtarthio]

Will people be able to purchase an online-PDF only version of the book? There must be some people out there that would find it handier to have all their materials on a notebook or ibook without buying the hardcopy.

It's only a matter of time before WotC lets you place an online order to get the registration code e-mailed directly to your computer.

[SpikeFightwicky]

It's only a matter of time before WotC lets you place an online order to get the registration code e-mailed directly to your computer.

If they did, I'd be more interested in using that method for alot of their splatbooks that I didn't bother with (races series, rules compendium, etc...)

[shadowdemon_lord]

This whole debate is kinda silly. WotC is simply trying to make a couple extra bucks off of each book by offering a PDF sale of it, while simultaniously trying to ensure that their print copies sell. They've also come up with the brilliant idea of making it so that hey! If you buy the PDF you're going to unlock these cool features in this cool new feature called D&DI (which they've simultaniously packaged with their magazines to both cut costs on printing the magazines and to promote their new feature). It's a good marketing strategy for them, and the only thing that really changes for us customers is that now we have the option (and an incentive, if you're into the idea of D&DI) to buy the legal copy of the PDF rather then downloading it from a filesharing service.

[Fixer]

I can't read that article, my login doesn't even seem to work any more...

At any rate, I am so not going to play tabletop RPGs using a computer. Not even if it were free.

Amusing point of note:

If you go into the URL of the site, change the part that says, "false" to "true" and you can pull up the page without problem. At least I could. I thought it was funny.

[Dizlag]

Yup, it worked for me as well. =)

Dizlag

[Green Bean]

Amusing point of note:

If you go into the URL of the site, change the part that says, "false" to "true" and you can pull up the page without problem. At least I could. I thought it was funny.

Alternatively, just hit the "Printer Friendly Version" link at the bottom of the page. You don't get all the fancy-pants colour pictures, but you can read the article just fine.

[Jarlax]

Where are you getting any references to a monthly fee? I see no references to this on the website.

As far as paying for an e-book of an already existing physical copy, I know I have no problems paying for that. I regularly copy by books onto my flash drive so I can review cases as they come up at work.

its under Ask Wizards, which is currently dominated by Sage Advice. you need to go into the archive to find it but they responded to the question shortly after the announcement of 4E with a guessrange of $10-$15 stating that this seemed a reasonable price because "its the same price as most MMO subscriptions"

i dont mind paying for a E-copy either because it will be a minimal amount ($1-$2). but i worry about how it will be distributed. if they are going to the trouble of making us use a code and pay a cost to download it to ensure only people who have brought the book can use it then i don't think it will be a downloadable PDF. much more likely it will be a pdf viewable in your web browser, you cant download it and you cant copy-paste from it although it will have a index for each chapter/page. i have see such implementations for E-librarys at Uni, they make the book available but they don't want you to own a copy that you could share out. something like this

a completely separate issue i have with the insider packageDungeon magazine is that their adventures are not very "printer friendly" the PDFs are covered in that nicely styled background and colorful illustrations, which are a nightmare on my printer and will hopefully be addressed soon. which is why although i like Dungeon and Dragon magazine i see less value from the online format.