unarmed combat ranger

[alexi]

hey y'all I'll be playing a ranger in an upcomming game with the following:

*Shapeshifter varient: no combat style, no companion animal. It's a combination of the Wild shape varient in UA and the shapeshift varient in PHBII.

*Flaw alcholic to gain an extra feat

*stats:
STR 16
DEX 15
CON 17
INT 14
WIS 15
CHA 11
(those stats were rolled)

I'll need to focus on the unarmed style feats, how should I build this character?

I'm limited to PHB, PHBII, UA, and the complete series.

[RTGoodman]

Check out Fist of the Forest from Complete Champion. It gives monk-type stuff (AC bonus, increased unarmed damage, and stuff like that) to nature-related characters.

[Grynning]

Improved Natural Attack (not unarmed strike) is a great feat for any unarmed fighter. I believe it's in Monster Manual, basically your natural attacks (claws, teeth, whatever) do damage as if you were a size category larger.

[UserClone]

Ooh, don't you have to have a natural attack, though? Only if it states that you gain the monk's "unarmed strikes count as both natural manufactured weapons for the purpose of enhancement bonus-granting enchantments" thing would that work.

[cupkeyk]

alcoholic? Hmmmn, you would need the flurry of blows ability to qualify for drunken master but that seems awesome.

[Grynning]

You do have to have a "natural weapon," but if you can shapeshift, you have one in your alternate form, so you can take the feat. I don't know where exactly the rule is, but I'm pretty sure druids can take monster feats that they don't qualify for in human form (and therefore can only use when wild-shaped). This would be a similar situation.

[alexi]

Improved Natural Attack I think this needs an BAB of +5

so lets build this guy to lv5 5. I'd like to keep just ranger, no multi class no PRC

[Goumindong]

If you have improved unarmed strike you quality for improved natural weapon.

[KillianHawkeye]

No, unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons by RAW, unless you are a monk. The monk has better unarmed strikes than anyone else.

[Grynning]

I'm not sure that holds up in 3.5 - 3.5 monks gain Imp. Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and the class features just improve damage and give you the flurry ability.
So, theoretically, anyone who takes Improved Unarmed Strike (or is otherwise considered "armed" with a natural attack of some kind) can also take Improved Natural Attack. I have to say Guom is correct.

[alexi]

from PHBII
"When you shapeshift into a form other then your own you gain natural weapons..."

I also gain mobility at 4th lv.

[Person_Man]

FYI, the normal Wildshape Ranger only loses its combat form feats, and gains limited Wildshape and Fast Movement. It keeps its animal companion. By choosing to play a Shapeshifter variant, you're even weaker then a normal core-ish Ranger, which is pretty weak by itself.

Anywho, I suggest Power Attack and (ironically) the TWF tree. Remember that you can usually use your natural attacks at a -5 penalty in addition to your normal attack routine. You might also want to use Improved Grapple, since your Str and Size increase.

[alexi]

my size does not increase till lv8...

[Darrin]

I'm not sure that holds up in 3.5 - 3.5 monks gain Imp. Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and the class features just improve damage and give you the flurry ability.
So, theoretically, anyone who takes Improved Unarmed Strike (or is otherwise considered "armed" with a natural attack of some kind) can also take Improved Natural Attack. I have to say Guom is correct.

The feat Improved Unarmed Strike *does not* give you a natural attack, not in 3.0 or 3.5. Monks have a class ability that gives them Improved Unarmed Strike and allows them to treat their unarmed strikes as natural weapons for the purposes of enhancements and spell-like effects. If you just take Improved Unarmed Strike without taking any levels of monk, you don't get to treat your strikes as natural weapons.

There are a couple ways around this. The SwordSage variant in Tome of Battle gets unarmed damage very similar to monks (but is very vague about if they also count as natural attacks).

Also in Tome of Battle is Superior Unarmed Strike, which increases your unarmed strike damage based on your character level (without adjusting for size, oddly enough) if you're a non-monk... essentially giving you the unarmed damage of a small-sized monk of an equivalent level. But without monk levels your unarmed strikes would still not be considered natural attacks.

Fist of the Forest (Comp. Champ.) also gives you the equivalent of a monk's unarmed strike, as well was two unarmed damage buffs in only a 3-level PrC. Superior Unarmed Strike + Fist of the Forest would give you fairly decent unarmed damage progression (the equivalent of a large monk), and it may allow you to use Improved Natural Attack... (the wording on how it improves your unarmed strike isn't entirely clear) but that's 4-5 feats for somewhat mediocre damage.

You can get natural attacks from certain races (Lizardmen, Kenku, etc.) or templates, but unless you take monk levels, Improved Natural Attack would not improve your unarmed strikes.

[alexi]

You can get natural attacks from certain races (Lizardmen, Kenku, etc.) or templates, but unless you take monk levels, Improved Natural Attack would not improve your unarmed strikes.

what?

from the srd:
Improved natural weapon
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.

[Darrin]

what?
from the srd:
Improved natural weapon
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.

Unarmed strikes and natural weapons are not interchangable and are two distinct types of attacks.

If a Lizardfolk attacks with a natural weapon such as his claw or bite, he does 1d4 damage per his stat block in the MM. If he makes an unarmed attack, such as punching or kicking, he would provoke an AoO and as a medium creature do 1d3 nonlethal damage (although why he would use such an attack instead of one of his natural attacks is left as an exercise for the reader).

If a Lizardfolk picks up Improved Unarmed Strike but does not have any Monk levels, he no longer provokes an AoO with an unarmed strike and can now choose to do 1d3 lethal or nonlethal damage. If he also picks up Improved Natural Weapon, his claw and bite attacks would now do 1d6 damage, but his unarmed strike would still do only 1d3 damage because his unarmed strike is still not considered a natural weapon.

If the Lizardfolk were to take Monk levels, then his unarmed strike damage would start at 1d6, and if he also took Improved Natural Attack, it would increase his natural weapon damage *and* his unarmed strike damage by a step because a monk's unarmed strikes are considered natural weapons for the purposes of enhancements and spell effects. (He could also add his natural attacks to a full-round attack as secondary attacks for a -5 hit penalty).

Clear as mud now?

[alexi]

Ok for some reason I was thinking that you were saying that you couldn't take improved natural attack without taking monk levels

[Person_Man]

Ok for some reason I was thinking that you were saying that you couldn't take improved natural attack without taking monk levels

Claws, Bite, Slam, Tentacles, etc. are natural weapons.

Unarmed Strike is not a natural weapon. It's just an Unarmed Strike.

The exception to this rule is the Monk. The Monk's "Unarmed Strike" ability grants them Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and it also increases their unarmed damage, and it also allows their Unarmed Strike to be treated as a manufactured or natural weapon.

Thus, if you want to take the feat Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike), you must take at least 1 level of Monk.

This is all covered in the FAQ, if you feel like reading it.

[Jerthanis]

It requires a dip in Monk, which you probably don't want, but the Ascetic Hunter feat out of Complete Adventurer is really good for unarmed fighting Rangers, allowing their unarmed strikes to scale in damage with level... though I'm really unclear about what happens to your natural attacks while wild shaped.

Anyway, it's a halfway decent feat, and might be worth at least looking at.

[alexi]

from PHBII
"When you shapeshift into a form other then your own you gain natural weapons..."

again so i have natural weapons while shapeshifted, why would I need to take a level of monk?

[Not Dice]

First post! (Been lurking for a long time.)

Just a thought, you may want to have a look at the Ascetic _______ feats from the Complete Adventurer. It allows you to stack Monk and other class levels for class-specific abilities as well as allow certain unarmed advantages from Monk combine with other class-granted advantages. Don't have the specifics on-hand but it's worth a look, given your character concept.

[Person_Man]

from PHBII
"When you shapeshift into a form other then your own you gain natural weapons..."

again so i have natural weapons while shapeshifted, why would I need to take a level of monk?

Your partial quote is misleading. When you shapeshift, you gain certain natural weapons, such as a bite attack. The bite attack counts as a natural weapon, just like every other bite attack. But you could continue to wield a manufactured weapon. And shapeshifting wouldn't change that, or make your manufactured weapon into a natural weapon. And it does not change your unarmed attacks. Your unarmed attack is still just an unarmed attack, unless you take a level of Monk.

[...Eh?]

First post! (Been lurking for a long time.)

Just a thought, you may want to have a look at the Ascetic _______ feats from the Complete Adventurer. It allows you to stack Monk and other class levels for class-specific abilities as well as allow certain unarmed advantages from Monk combine with other class-granted advantages. Don't have the specifics on-hand but it's worth a look, given your character concept.

Actually, this topic and specifically that post remind me of something I noticed a few minutes ago while writing up a character sheet. The Ascetic feats have Imporved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, but any character could take that. So, if, say, a rogue took Improved Unarmed Strike, can't he take Ascetic Rogue next chance and get the unarmed damage of a monk without taking any levels in the class?

[Draz74]

Actually, this topic and specifically that post remind me of something I noticed a few minutes ago while writing up a character sheet. The Ascetic feats have Imporved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, but any character could take that. So, if, say, a rogue took Improved Unarmed Strike, can't he take Ascetic Rogue next chance and get the unarmed damage of a monk without taking any levels in the class?

Read the feat. It says you get Monk damage progression out of your Rogue levels "IF you have levels in Rogue and Monk."

The feat is, in fact, useless for a Rogue unless he has either the Stunning Fist feat or Monk levels (or both). Even though he can qualify for its prerequisites.