OOTS #1200 - The Discussion Thread

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Poor Durkon; sometimes showing initiative means that your plans are also going to take a little criticism. I do think Roy is probably right on the merits here, as this may be an instance where it's better to negotiate from a position of strength instead of hoping Redcloak would be willing to back off when he's so close to realizing his goals.

[Gildedragon]

I wonder what the message would have been
something like

"Redcloak, urgent message. Gods are about to do something drastic. But some are hoping for alliance with the dark one to prevent world from ending."

[khadgar567]

well roy was smartly seen dumbest plan on durkon's part and decides to prioritize more important stuff first like finding gate getting enough knowledge on gate's runes via V, durkon and minrah examining it then talking redcloack on his goals and let him kinda ditch xycon so gods handle snarl and roy has enough time to drop offering on church for spear he barrowed.

[Darkohaku]

Aw man, it's nice to see Durkon making plans, but Roy sure is tactless. Was the plan bad? maybe, but there are other ways for telling that.

Wonder if it's going to work in other circumstances.

[Ionathus]

I love this scene.
I love Durkon actually proposing a different plan.
I love Roy shooting him down.
I don't love Durkon giving ground right away, or Roy insulting Durkon by comparing him to Belkar. But it makes the story more compelling so I do love it in the abstract and it makes me more excited for what's to come.

It feels like Roy is missing a piece of the puzzle here: he's used to doing everything himself. Working with the skills and abilities he has, not waiting for the gods to fix things, and relying on what's tangible and in front of him.

I think Durkon's plan has more merit than Roy is seeing. We're dealing with world-ending threats here, and they need divine help to put this thing to an end for good. While I don't think Redcloak would immediately listen, I think the idea of planting a seed now isn't the worst idea, and Roy shuts it down too quickly.

Peelee:
Last Redcloak saw, the cleric was a vampire and Roy was likely killed.

I don't think Redcloak even knew Durkon was a vampire. He's not present when Team Evil arrive and leave. Have Durkon and Redcloak had any significant interactions before this? All I can think of is the Dungeon of Dorukan. Hell, even Redcloak -- the one with a good memory -- might have trouble remembering the nondescript Dwarf Cleric from over a year ago.

If Durkon reaches out as just another cleric, and not a member of the Order of the Stick, he may not even spoil the Greenhilt-is-alive-and-coming situation.

[Kantaki]

Worse than Belkar's plans? Ouch.
But yeah, Roy is probably right that this isn't the time to talk things out.

[Ron Miel]

Would the sending to Redcloak even have worked at all, since that's not his real name, or is it enough just to be familiar with him?

He's been Redcloak for the majority of his life. It's how everybody knows him. It's his real name as much as anything is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He's been Redcloak for the majority of his life. It's how everybody knows him. It's his real name as much as anything is.

It's also his title. The King of Nowhere was not named that at birth, but that's still their name, for purposes of addressing them. Heck, depending on how touchy a king is, addressing them as anything else will get you ignored at best, and could see you end up in the oubliette.

Professor Tolkien put it best

Many are my names in many countries. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves, Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.

Grey Wolf

[Shale]

My stab at it:

"I speak for Thor. Gods are ready to negotiate to avoid release of the Snarl. Can proceed in whatever forum you prefer."

[Fyraltari]

Professor Tolkien put it best


Grey Wolf

The best part is that Incánus translates to "Northern spy" but Gandalf just rolls with it.

[CriticalFailure]

"Dark One starves if Snarl loosed. Seeking negotiation to close gates, representing Thor. Panpantheonic alliance only permanent solution, we need your help."

[Frozenstep]

But wouldn't it be better if they get Redcloak on their side? They won't have to fight him, and he can help them against Xykon.

Also, just telling Redcloak that Thor wishes to negotiate with TDO won't tell him they are coming.

And Redcloak is probably expecting them to come anyway. Even if he doesn't know exactly where they are.

I disagree with Roy's logic.

The problem with just telling Thor wishes to negotiate is that TDO is on the verge of gaining massive advantage in that negotiation. He's put a lot of effort and taken a lot of risk into getting this advantage. He may as well get his bargaining chip, then come to bargain.

Redcloak has been fighting and focusing on other things for...quite some time? Last he saw the order, they were stuck in a desert with no teleportation magic and no airship, and no wizard or cleric, and facing down something that could have easily finished off some or all of them. It's been a while. I'm sure he's still aware they might show up, but after so long, it's hard to keep your guard up for that long. Finding out the enemy cleric is alive, casting, and apparently with the group would be a massive heads up, and may prompt him to start preparing spells/other things to fight the order rather then the monsters behind the doors.

Redcloak and TDO are in...a good position, all things considered. Giving up that position, risking it all, for the sake of the rest of the world that has already betrayed you once is not a tempting enough choice. Get rid of the good position, and now you've got a better chance.

[Rogan]

But wouldn't it be better if they get Redcloak on their side? They won't have to fight him, and he can help them against Xykon.

Also, just telling Redcloak that Thor wishes to negotiate with TDO won't tell him they are coming.

And Redcloak is probably expecting them to come anyway. Even if he doesn't know exactly where they are.

I disagree with Roy's logic.

Redcloak might think the order is dead. As far as I remember, the last time they had contact, he sent an elemental to kill them. If they contact him, he will know this elemental failed at it's task. But as I write this, I noticed Peelee already said so...

So, Roys response might be a bit harsh, but I think, he has a point. It would be a mistake to let Red know they are still alive.

[understatement]

Is it possible Redcloak still has the Cloister effect? That 25-word thread felt so long ago...

Also: Roy is logically right, but DAMMIT I wanted to see Durkon talk to Redcloak! Even though it would've disrupted all battle strategies. worth it tho

But how is the Order going to defeat Xykon and then convince RC to their side? The Stick's definitely more powerful than ever, but Xykon is still leagues above them in terms of raw power.

Agh, so much things happening.

[faustin]

The greatest objection to Durkon's plan isn't even about Xykon. Is all about Redcloak.

We, the readers, are aware about his past. How much he has devoted and sacrificed because "The Plan must continue", and how much guilt he has silenced for "the greater good for Goblinhood". RC is the very embodiment of sunk cost fallacy at this point, and nothing less than having everything crashing around with no hope of rebuild can remotely convince him to stop and listen to an alternative.

[Delta]

Also: Roy is logically right, but DAMMIT I wanted to see Durkon talk to Redcloak! Even though it would've disrupted all battle strategies. worth it tho

Pretty sure that this strip is a setup so that when the time comes, we already know that Durkon has another Sending prepared as well as the idea of using it to contact Redcloak doesn't come out of nowhere.

[Reboot]

Is it possible Redcloak still has the Cloister effect? That 25-word thread felt so long ago...

It is notable, in that context, that Durkon doesn't even CONSIDER Sending to O'Chul - even if Lien is dead or unconscious, he may not be. Do they know for sure that O'Chul *is* still Cloistered?

[WindStruck]

Interesting. I think Roy's explanation could be some foreshadowing, which means those that capture Lien and O'Chul are now tipped off by their presence.

I don't know how by d&d rules, but the ever-present explanation of "Magic!" works.

[KorvinStarmast]

It is notable, in that context, that Durkon doesn't even CONSIDER Sending to O'Chul - even if Lien is dead or unconscious, he may not be. Do they know for sure that O'Chul *is* still Cloistered?

Hmm, arrgh, how long is that residual effect of cloister?
A few months? Need to go back to DSTP strips and dig out that convo with Haley.

EDIT: DOH! I just realized that Minrah (the cleric who carries her fists in her heart!) said she wanted to punch up the prose in the sending. Missed that the first time through.

[Grey Watcher]

I agree with Roy in regard sequencing. They can talk to Redcloak after they take out Xykon.

I don't know. It might be easier to start negotiations if you at least attempt it before all the sword-swinging and spell-slinging. Yeah, it's already a longshot (between Redcloak generalizing his anger with the Sapphire Guard to humans generally AND the Order having thwarted him previously), but trying to talk immediately after the direct, physical conflict has just been renewed could be a problem. He could literally end up refusing more to spite his apparent captors than anything else. Attempting the offer before coming to blows (again) might help him see it more clearly for what it is.

On the other hand, negotiating from a position of strength (ie, "we've already beaten you, so it's not like we couldn't just wipe you out if we wanted to") might be able to break through Redcloak's cynicism more readily.

Of course, maybe "prevent the Ritual" really SHOULD be a higher priority than "negotiate with Redcloak," between the severity, scale, and permanence of the various combinations of success and failure with those goals. In which case, preparing as though there's no choice but combat makes a certain amount of sense.

Point is, there really does seem to be room to justify any given order of actions here. There's just too many variables in play to firmly identify the optimal course of action (especially once you consider that Roy doesn't know everything that we, the audience, know).

[JumboWheat01]

Not ALL adventurers just wing it with the first plan. Only 99.9% of them.

[Fyraltari]

Hmm, arrgh, how long is that residual effect of cloister?
A few months? Need to go back to DSTP strips and dig out that convo with Haley.

I think it was like a week per level of the caster.

[understatement]

It is notable, in that context, that Durkon doesn't even CONSIDER Sending to O'Chul - even if Lien is dead or unconscious, he may not be. Do they know for sure that O'Chul *is* still Cloistered?

Hmm, arrgh, how long is that residual effect of cloister?
A few months? Need to go back to DSTP strips and dig out that convo with Haley.

By the founding of Gobbotopia O-Chul is still Cloistered (along with Redcloak). It has been...what, around 21 days from the Stick winding up in the EoB until their arrival at the North Pole? Around 47 weeks has passed since when Xykon did the Cloister and when Haley received the Sending in the pyramid, so assuming that Xykon renews the Cloister when it nears the end (and not wait for a gap or doing it earlier). Additionally, ~44 weeks pass since the Battle of Azure City and Team Peregrine arriving, we know for sure Xykon renewed it during the period Haley Celia Belkar travel to the Oracle (if he's ~level 21).

...I have no idea what I'm trying to get at, but I guess RC, MITD, and O-Chul may not have the Cloister anymore.

(Sourced from the OOTS wikia).

[ShinigamiKenji]

I'm not a frequent member nor a loredigger like many, but... In my opinion, Redcloak wouldn't even bat an eye at their proposal. And Roy knows that.

First, we have no signs that Redcloak or TDO are aware of the Godsmoot (seems like they don't even know it exists). So it might have been considered a bluff by the Order or the Gods themselves, especially considering they have nothing to show them and Redcloak hates non-goblin races with a passion.

Second, Redcloak already has a plan he concocted with TDO. Would he incur his god's wrath by trying to negotiate and delay the plan? Also, during their stay in Azure City, Redcloak said he had already invested too much in the plan to bail out. So it's unlikely he would give up everything he did so far.

Lastly, while Roy is unaware of those, the fact is that there's an epic-level lich trying to seize control of the gate, alongside a high-level beastmaster and an unknown but strong monster. They are already at the doors of their goal. Right now, Team Evil has the upper hand. Roy knows this is too one-sided for Durkon's plan to succeed, especially considering their domination-centered personalities.

[Schroeswald]

I think Minrah's gonna do the Sending, though not sure if Minrah will do it without telling Durkon.

[FlawedParadigm]

I think Roy's making a mistake here; one he could reasonably know about. 1) Even if we suppose the giant airship is somehow super stealthy, Redcloak made clear last time that Roy saw him that he considers the Order a reliable and persistent threat. 2) Even if we suppose Roy thinks Redcloak is a complete idiot, Redcloak seemed to make plain to Xykon that he didn't think a single spell would kill the Order. 3) Given that Redcloak explicitly saw the Order "defeat" Xykon the one and only time he saw the entire Order facing Xykon, he has legitimate reason to expect a single elemental would not wipe them out. 4) As such, it's only reasonable to assume that not only is there zero chance for surprise, but letting Redcloak know that violence isn't the only acceptable option may be their best chance for success - and given Roy's previous engagement with Xykon, he should have an inkling of this.

Of course, it's a story and if everyone always made perfect decisions, there'd be no conflict or story worth reading. I am taking this as Rich's nudge that "Yes, Roy has still not overcome his character flaw of assuming he knows more than he actually does."

[Darth Paul]

Adventure takes many forms.

Isn't ther a missing "in" in panel 2? It would make the message exactly 25 words long.

Funny, I still only count it as 24 including "in" trouble. Unless you're counting "cannae" as 2 words?

Interesting question- how many words do words spoken with an accent count?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Funny, I still only count it as 24 including "in" trouble. Unless you're counting "cannae" as 2 words?

Interesting question- how many words do words spoken with an accent count?

Dunno.

But if I was casting it, I'd argue that my first word would only count as one, despite containing four. Innit?

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Funny, I still only count it as 24 including "in" trouble. Unless you're counting "cannae" as 2 words?

Interesting question- how many words do words spoken with an accent count?

We’re = 1 or 2 words?

‘Cannot’ is certainly only one word even if it’s etymologically two crammed together.

[Arkku]

The Order never really had an issue with that. Nale did.

Yes, the Order's problem was more with the number of sending spells than the number of words per spell.