Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

[VoxRationis]

"It doesn't matter if you're using them constructively!"

I mean, it does matter, because if you're basing your decisions on random external factors that have little or nothing to do with the underlying mechanics of the topic, you're likely to make the wrong decisions when those external factors happen to diverge from reality. One's very ability to use something "constructively" is predicated on the interaction between that frame of mind and the actual nature of the physical world.

[Wraith]

I made a crack a few days ago about Willow Dragonfang's name being a Tumblr handle.

The more I've seen of her over the last few days - inserting herself into stranger's conversations, uninformed shipping, dodgy justifications for poor arguments, and now fascination with New Age nonsense as a pseudo-science - I'm starting to think that she might actually be an AI platform that is hosting actual Tumblr.

She is uncannily the anti-Clinton, whose personality (until recently at least) was mostly taken from r/Technology.

[MoonCat]

For the sake of my own sanity, I've just concluded that no one in the QC-verse has boundaries unless they're about to break up with someone.

I personally feel like there's a lot less pinup-like art in Misfile, or rather that the majority of interactions in it take place while leaning on something mid-torso height, which lends itself to an air of pinup without necessarily being one. When a comic revolves so much around cars, anyone leaning on them is going to have their butt out or else go with an unnatural "splayed legs and knees" pose.

I really don't think that the poses of the girls in Misfile are realistic on the grounds of the cars being in the comic. It's not really about whether the artist intends for the scene to be titillating or in 'pin-up style' as much as it is about how he always seems to draw women and girls with a focus on showing off their bodies. The men in Misfile are typically drawn in panels that cut off at mid-chest or at are closeups on their faces. The women's corresponding panels tend to be head-to-thigh shots, and facial closeups often manage to include boob. Could you imagine Ash's father being drawn like Emily's mom is in this scene?

In addition just plain shots of a woman standing around, such as in this second-latest comic features a rather unrealistic arched back posture that manages to show off the teacher's chest and butt at the same time. As you say, this isn't a titillation scene. But it still puts in a fair bit of likely-unconscious work to show off the woman's body.

...

Now, as for the actual comic this thread is about, I think Willow here is conflating some concepts which might explain why it's coming across as dangerously poor thinking. Without getting into religion, I think it's fair to say that some of what she lists can function as a way of making your decisions and forming opinions based on random external factors, which isn't good. I certainly am not fond of having people asking for my birthdate so they can determine my character. That's something not real that externally influences their thinking.

However, not everything she lists necessarily functions like that. My mother likes to talk about tarot as a means of introspection—obviously the cards come up at random, but if she suddenly thinks of a particular person when she reads a sequence as signifying considerable stress, it helps her recognise some unconscious feelings she may be holding. It's comparable to an ink blot test.

I think this is the difference Willow is trying to make when talking about using these concepts constructively. Humans are wired to follow patterns. This can be bad, when we start to impose patterns that don't exist on reality. But patterns also help us organize our own thoughts, which can be a great aid to logic and rationality.

[Morquard]

I'm with Clinton here -- if it's not real, it doesn't matter how "useful" it is.

And eventually it will result in a bad outcome.

Seeing patterns that are not there and then following up on them, is what leads you down conspiracy theory holes and a total disconnect from reality.

So, no, it matters if they're real or not.

[Max_Killjoy]

Seeing patterns that are not there and then following up on them, is what leads you down conspiracy theory holes and a total disconnect from reality.

So, no, it matters if they're real or not.

We're agreeing, then?

[Wraith]

Using tarot cards, etc as meditation aids is perfectly reasonable. You're not literally using the cards to foretell the future, you're just exploring the images presented by the ritual and letting your mind wander, hopefully into new ideas that haven't yet been brought to the fore so they can be properly considered for new inspiration.
It's like playing Six Degrees of Separation, with the stimulus as the first step and yourself filling in the blanks to whatever conclusion you feel like drawing - Clinton is right in that the suggestions inferred from cards aren't "real", you could get exactly the same process from going for a walk in a new neighbourhood, or by making pictures out of clouds. But Willow is also right in that any new imagery begets new ideas, which in turn begets new perspectives.

Actually using the cards as signposts to give you literal instructions as to what to do next and hope that it works out, is tin-foil-hat territory.

Hopefully in tomorrow's strip Jeph will clarify that Willow means the former.

[Willie the Duck]

Or that she's supposed to be a loon (although, with Melon in the mix, the strip seems to have lolrandom filled).

[MoonCat]

Hopefully in tomorrow's strip Jeph will clarify that Willow means the former.

Unfortunately, I think Jeph, while having good intentions and fairly sound logic for his opinions, rarely manages to communicate them well or clearly in the medium of random-comic-character-speech. This combines especially poorly with this forum's tendency to intepret the comics in rather bad faith way.

Even within the last year I think we've seen this with Brun, May, Roko, Yay, and now Willow. Speaking of patterns.

[Morquard]

We're agreeing, then?

Oh yes, didn't mean to sound like I was disagreeing

[Wildstag]

I really don't think that the poses of the girls in Misfile are realistic on the grounds of the cars being in the comic. It's not really about whether the artist intends for the scene to be titillating or in 'pin-up style' as much as it is about how he always seems to draw women and girls with a focus on showing off their bodies. The men in Misfile are typically drawn in panels that cut off at mid-chest or at are closeups on their faces. The women's corresponding panels tend to be head-to-thigh shots, and facial closeups often manage to include boob. Could you imagine Ash's father being drawn like Emily's mom is in this scene?

In addition just plain shots of a woman standing around, such as in this second-latest comic features a rather unrealistic arched back posture that manages to show off the teacher's chest and butt at the same time. As you say, this isn't a titillation scene. But it still puts in a fair bit of likely-unconscious work to show off the woman's body.

Fwiw, the first link is actually a reasonable pose for someone to be in while sitting in a car. But I will concede that I'm not convinced the father would be drawn in that pose. You're also dredging up a pretty old page. As for your second example, we've seen plenty of titillation of both sexes in recent months, which makes using that particular page a bit misleading for anyone else just glancing through the discussion.

To go back to the original point though, Jeph's art has been pretty lazy in the last few years and using "there's barely any change in the art" isn't necessarily a good argument (it was another forumite that used the changelessness, but I can reply to multiple people in one comment). As an example, the bakery has been getting significantly less detailed and realistic looking. Elliot's legs would have to be in an incredibly awkward position to be standing in that scene while still being similar in height to the other characters. Or at the very least, he'd knead to be kneeling on a stool. Also the door disappeared. Changelessness in artwork isn't always a bad thing, and changes in art isn't inherently a good thing.

Or that she's supposed to be a loon (although, with Melon in the mix, the strip seems to have lolrandom filled).

Melon, Pintsize, Emily, and Sam. I'm not really looking forward to the next lolsorandom character, it'd just be gratuitous to add more instead of utilize what he does have. But then again, that's not how Jeph do, so...

[Shadow of the Sun]

Willow is the kind of person who practices chaos magic but Jeph doesn't know what he's talking about so he's making up terms.

[Cikomyr2]

So I know certain behavior can affect your cerebral biochemistry. Role-playing, gaming, meditating.

I don't believe in supernatural ****. But I don't see why there can't be a mental benefit in doing these superstitious rituals.

Loon at it this way : you'd think the placebo effect being more known would work against its effectiveness. But it's the opposite, the placebo effect actually still works on people who know they are taking a placebo. Because "placebo works" is ingrained in human psyche nowadays.

So yhea. Tarot, line reading. Whatever. It's a type of mild therapy.

[theangelJean]

Fwiw, the first link is actually a reasonable pose for someone to be in while sitting in a car. But I will concede that I'm not convinced the father would be drawn in that pose. You're also dredging up a pretty old page. As for your second example, we've seen plenty of titillation of both sexes in recent months, which makes using that particular page a bit misleading for anyone else just glancing through the discussion.

Well, no, that's not actually a reasonable posture for someone sitting in a car. Bucket seats are c-shaped, with the pelvis and chest both curved forward, and the head rest jutting out; she's sitting with her back arched the other way, supporting herself on her arm in a way that allows her to push up her bust, and with her legs crossed. Absolutely a pin-up pose, and not one you'd assume for a heart-to-heart with your daughter. (Plus she apparently has no internal organs in her abdomen, like all the female characters in Misfile.) And yes, there's a little bit more equal-opportunity fanservice in the more recent iteration, but there are still girls squeezing their boobs together or standing with their arms behind them pushing out their chests, every second page if not more. I was the one who commented on the changelessness of the art in Misfile - all I was saying was that it made a complete contrast with Questionable Content, but my criticism was for the actual poses themselves. That said, Jeph's body types aren't that much more diverse; he just has more realistic postures these days.

[MoonCat]

Fwiw, the first link is actually a reasonable pose for someone to be in while sitting in a car. But I will concede that I'm not convinced the father would be drawn in that pose. You're also dredging up a pretty old page. As for your second example, we've seen plenty of titillation of both sexes in recent months, which makes using that particular page a bit misleading for anyone else just glancing through the discussion.

I think theangelJean's examination of that pose is better than anything I could say, but fair enough on it being an old page—I was trying to scroll through to a random point, but obviously most of the archive is old by now.

However, I disagree with your analysis of the newer strips. The two male characters drawn in a fan-servicey style in the new strips as specifically and explicitly there to act as an entirely-objectified character and an incubus. The other male characters are not drawn as such, whereas all the women are drawn in a 'body first' way. Sticking only to strips from the beginning of 2021, look at the unnatural angles and posing done to emphasize cleavage here and here and here.


So yes, there are some more men's assets drawn in the comic now for specific reasons, but my point about the scene with Emily's mother was about the unconscious and ubiquitous drawing of women's bodies in an objectifying manner. And despite that page being old, by referencing against these newer strips doing the same thing, it seems safe to say it does not mislead anyone about Chris Hazelton's artistic motifs.

[Wildstag]

I think theangelJean's examination of that pose is better than anything I could say, but fair enough on it being an old page—I was trying to scroll through to a random point, but obviously most of the archive is old by now.

However, I disagree with your analysis of the newer strips. The two male characters drawn in a fan-servicey style in the new strips as specifically and explicitly there to act as an entirely-objectified character and an incubus. The other male characters are not drawn as such, whereas all the women are drawn in a 'body first' way. Sticking only to strips from the beginning of 2021, look at the unnatural angles and posing done to emphasize cleavage here and here and here.

I think the example y'all used is a bit wonky, because in trying to replicate it myself (as a 6'2" adult male), it's nearly impossible to sit straight and turned towards the other seat without having my chest out to some degree. And seeing as between those two characters, one is trying to model and encourage "proper" behavior (that's basically her mom's entire character), it's a pretty reasonable pose to draw. Does it emphasize the chest? Yes.

However, it's also a pose that is very in-character for that particular character and the only reason the daughter isn't in a similar pose is because she is slouching and bending her neck while keeping her shoulders pointed straight. If you're trying to face someone while talking to them in a car, your number of poses is limited. The mother's pose is natural.

And if a natural pose ends up looking like a pinup pose, then firstly, it shouldn't be discouraged; and secondly, it's probably associated with pinups because it's a naturally alluring position. Artists shouldn't shy away from natural and comfortable body positions solely because it can be confused for a titillating scene.

I think you and I are going to just have to disagree on what a natural pose is though. Someone bending over because they just stopped running is a natural pose (your first 2021 example). The poses aren't the issue for any of the 2021 art, to be honest; they're natural body language. Being doubled over in dejection isn't strange. The issue is that because those characters are in loungewear, no matter what position they stand or sit in, their shirt will emphasize their breasts. But granted, this is also a "woke up in the middle of the night" scene, so naturally they will be wearing looser clothing (because who goes to bed in tight-fitting clothing?).

That third 2021 example is definitely an outlier though. There's no real natural reason to stand like that, and the wink doesn't really excuse it. I can't really think of a good reason for that emphasis.

Jeph doesn't often draw characters in such positions but that's because his characters are more orally expressive than physically (which ends up accentuating Brun's quirks). And honestly, in today's comic, the panel where Bubbles' hand is on her hip is very unnerving to me. Her spine just looks too flexible (? for lack of a better word).

Some of the pages in QuestionableContent from last week involve characters wearing the same kind of shirt as we see in last week's Misfile pages. The difference in portrayal boils down to the fact that in one comic, they're on the ground sitting and bent over in a slouching position; this kind of pose emphasizes the breasts inherently. In the other comic, the characters are standing straight in a neutral position; no particular body part gets any emphasis in such art (though the noselessness of the one AnthroPC is drawing my attention).

Jeph just doesn't often draw characters in loungewear with their full body visible. If he did, it would be noticeable.

[Eldan]

QC also overwhelmingly features characters either outside or at their workplaces, especially lately*. So they are standing in relatively neutral poses.


*I mean, seriously. Marten and Faye used to be home decently often, sitting around on couches and the like, but I don't think we've seen the homes of half the recent focus characters.

[MoonCat]

Artists shouldn't shy away from natural and comfortable body positions solely because it can be confused for a titillating scene.

Here's the thing, these aren't natural and comfortable positions. I'll leave the car scene because I haven't been regularly in cars for years.

You say that Nil's position is natural because she's just been running in the first of my 2021 examples—she's not supporting herself with her hands on her knees, she's got her elbows braced with her shoulders together, and her hands are cupped behind her thighs. Here's two images below of women bending in the position you're thinking of.

Spoiler

Show

Do you see the key differences? Do you see how cleavage is emphasised in the comic?

In addition, I note you're not addressing any of what I've said about angles. Sure, "being doubled over in dejection isn't strange," but it's a conscious artistic choice to have the position of the viewer be constantly looking down the shirts of every girl in the comic every time she does have even the barest reason to lean forwards. Or backwards. Or standing up straight while looking upwards.

Jeph just doesn't often draw characters in loungewear with their full body visible. If he did, it would be noticeable.

I think this is an interesting observation on your part. Why doesn't he? He has plenty of scenes of characters interacting in their homes, at various hours. One exception was the massive Dora-Marten fight predicated on Faye being just in her underwear and Marten in his boxers. Were they in titillating poses then? When we do see naked couples in bed together, are they both equally uncovered, or are the women usually less dressed or more provocatively posed than the men?

Do you think that maybe this suggests that the way Chris Hazelton frequently draws teenage girls in their underwear when at home is not as much of a given as one might suppose?

I think you and I are going to just have to disagree on what a natural pose is though.

I am fully prepared that you and I are simply going to disagree on this subject, but I think your opinion comes from a refusal to challenge cultural norms more than any familiarity with the female body. Women are frequently portrayed like this, to the point where it is easy to believe it is natural, but the reality is much more to do the the centring of the male gaze in art.


Anyway, Willow is rude as hell and shouldn't force her way into people's lives and then complain about their friends.

[Mith]

Jeph doesn't often draw characters in such positions but that's because his characters are more orally expressive than physically (which ends up accentuating Brun's quirks). And honestly, in today's comic, the panel where Bubbles' hand is on her hip is very unnerving to me. Her spine just looks too flexible (? for lack of a better word).

Could that be that a line meant to reflect the curve in Bubble's figure looks like it is on her back, which would make her back arc differently than expected? (Not saying that that is the reason, but I saw this comment before I saw the comic, so I went looking for the potential detail.)

[Cikomyr2]

These two actually share chemistry. Like Brun and that robot girl.

[VoxRationis]

You know, Faye, humans have been writing/drawing on themselves with Sharpies for a while now.

[Eldan]

These two actually share chemistry. Like Brun and that robot girl.

Yeah, I'm actually coming down to these two having much better chemistry than with Elliott.

Though maybe it's just my nerd brain speaking where weird logic experiments, trivia and academic references are the most romantic thing of all.

[Wraith]

You know, Faye, humans have been writing/drawing on themselves with Sharpies for a while now.

Sam has been doing this for what... A week or two, or something? Call me small-minded if you wish, but I feel like one teenage girl's hobby business isn't quite a culture just yet.

Also, Sam is human. Humans drawing on robots is fine, but humans drawing on themselves is problematic? Bwuh?

Also, also: There's literally a guest strip published on the QC website which featured Dora and Tai drawing on each other, only to discover that they have accidentally used sharpies. Humans drawing on each other with Sharpies... in a QC guest comic, published on the QC website. The AI's have clearly appropriated it from lesbians!

[Maryring]

Yeah. I like Elliot a lot more as a character than Willow, but Willow and Clinton actually feel like they're enjoying each other's company. They genuinely share interests and play well of each other. Sure, one conversation ain't much to go off. But this one conversation feels a lot more natural and relaxing than any of the recent Clinton/Elliot interactions.

And cultural appropriation Faye? Really?

[John Cribati]

Given that Faye isn’t really the type to get hung up on what some would call “SJW nonsense,” I’m 90% sure it was meant as a joke but those two took it seriously.

[eee]

Yeah, I'm actually coming down to these two having much better chemistry than with Elliott.

Though maybe it's just my nerd brain speaking where weird logic experiments, trivia and academic references are the most romantic thing of all.

Clinton and Elliot are doing the Mating Ritual dance. All sorts of tensions messing up what used to be surprising good chemistry. Clinton and Willow, on the other hand, are just together because she decided to hang out with him, and they're in the early stages of discovering compatibilities.

[Willie the Duck]

Given that Faye isn’t really the type to get hung up on what some would call “SJW nonsense,” I’m 90% sure it was meant as a joke but those two took it seriously.

I swear that at times Jeph is deliberately trolling the type of people who lose their minds over such things, but yeah that would more likely come from Marten or similar than Faye.

Clinton and Elliot are doing the Mating Ritual dance. All sorts of tensions messing up what used to be surprising good chemistry. Clinton and Willow, on the other hand, are just together because she decided to hang out with him, and they're in the early stages of discovering compatibilities.

It is interesting how we've gone from people commenting about this Willow person violating boundaries to them seeming good together. I think it is just that they are interacting like everyone else in the strip does -- easily sliding into asides and tangential discussions mid-conversation. Clinton and Elliot have been doing the awkward-will-they/won't-they dance for a while now, and I agree -- before that they were perfectly normal mostly-compatible interactors with each other.

[Wraith]

I swear that at times Jeph is deliberately trolling the type of people who lose their minds over such things, but yeah that would more likely come from Marten or similar than Faye.

Jeph literally does this on Twitter, referring to the Reddit community as 'CHUDs' and insisting that because he has received a tweet complaining about [insert minority character] then now he has no other choice but to introduce 20 new [insert minority] characters immediately.

Last week was pretty notable - he made a tweet along the lines of "the CHUDs are really going to lose their minds at this week's comic lol", hinting that.... I don't even know? Elliot and Clinton would kiss, or the misogynists were going to go ballistic about Willow, or something? Maybe it was a double troll where he threatened to upset a bunch of people, and then did nothing upsetting just to see what his targets would latch onto?

[Max_Killjoy]

This is such a ludicrous assertion of "cultural appropriation" that I'd say it HAS to be meant as joke or troll... but... Poe's Law.

[Shogo]

I don't think it's meant to be a joke at all. Just something that was poorly thought out on Jeph's part.

If anything, the AIs getting sprays is would be the ones guilty of appropriation.

[Wildstag]

I swear that at times Jeph is deliberately trolling the type of people who lose their minds over such things, but yeah that would more likely come from Marten or similar than Faye.


It is interesting how we've gone from people commenting about this Willow person violating boundaries to them seeming good together. I think it is just that they are interacting like everyone else in the strip does -- easily sliding into asides and tangential discussions mid-conversation. Clinton and Elliot have been doing the awkward-will-they/won't-they dance for a while now, and I agree -- before that they were perfectly normal mostly-compatible interactors with each other.

Well yeah, because for a couple pages she was invasive. And then she mysteriously stopped being evasive and they were just talking. It's like how people complain about Claire being really gross when describing a yaoi fanfic involving her brother and then is still alright a while later when she isn't being gross.

I think this is an interesting observation on your part. Why doesn't he? He has plenty of scenes of characters interacting in their homes, at various hours. One exception was the massive Dora-Marten fight predicated on Faye being just in her underwear and Marten in his boxers. Were they in titillating poses then?

Jeph's characters are only rarely drawn outside of sitting or standing though, even when interacting within their homes. And when they're not, they're lying down. The primary difference is that Jeph very rarely draws his characters when their spines AREN'T straight, which to be honest is pretty unnatural. People don't just have straight spines 24/7. They slouch, bend, lean, stretch, etc. Weight is distributed unevenly on the legs constantly; shoulders will be at different heights because of that. Weight displacement in general just moves the spine. Just the way he portrays walking people is too rigid and bland. There's only one page in the last ten where someone's actually bent their spine somewhat, and that's Willow cowering behind Clinton as Bubbles looms over them. Well, two if you count the very weirdly drawn spine on Bubbles in yesterday's comic, but I don't think that was intentional.

You seem to see everything that isn't a straight-spine-pose in a sexual light. It's comes off as puritanical, to be honest. The way I see it, it's only an issue when the focus is on sexualizing the character for the sake of it. The car scene, the bent-after-running pose, sitting on the ground in casualwear, it's all people in comfortable situations where they're in a very natural position; yet you only seem to see pinups. I think it's you that needs your eyes checked, not me.

P.S. The artist also has the main male character in the same pose just five pages before the one we're discussing, with the primary difference being whether or not that character is the central focus of the panel. If his shirt were loose or more open, we would see as much. I will admit the pose is slightly unnatural, but I think if her hands were on her knees instead of cupping her thighs, it'd actually emphasize the chest more. Those stock photos you provided aren't really 1:1 comparisons because the camera isn't facing the women straight on, it's to the side somewhat. The second one looks like it would actually emphasize the breasts if it weren't to her side.