Questionable Content XVI: Yes, Butt

[Cikomyr2]

My girlfriend told me when she was in a depressive state earlier in her life, she was willingly sabotaging all her relationship because she'd rather be the one who break stuff than it happening to her.

So.. I dunnow, maybe Rene is just finding intentional breaking locations of she ever wants to get out of the relationship with a "good" reason. Because she'd be a bad person if she broke up for a bad reason.

The outlook is... Unhealthy.. She is actively rationales for her bad choices and behavior. I hope she manage to find a spot of comfort in her life.

[Willie the Duck]

I think Renee is just, like lots of people who have had rough life experiences of one form or another, comfortable (if not happy) in the less optimal situations and nervous in a newfound good place because 1) it seems too good to be true, and 2) all the tools with which she navigated the previous situations no longer apply.

[Keltest]

I think Renee is just, like lots of people who have had rough life experiences of one form or another, comfortable (if not happy) in the less optimal situations and nervous in a newfound good place because 1) it seems too good to be true, and 2) all the tools with which she navigated the previous situations no longer apply.

Im thinking the first more than the second. I know when things go perfectly without extensive planning or effort on my part to earn it, i get suspicious. Theres a reason "this is too easy. it must be a trap" is in the public perception as a trope after all.

[Traab]

I think Renee is just, like lots of people who have had rough life experiences of one form or another, comfortable (if not happy) in the less optimal situations and nervous in a newfound good place because 1) it seems too good to be true, and 2) all the tools with which she navigated the previous situations no longer apply.

I agree, everything is going smoothly. She likes this guy, he is willing to give what she wants a try and seems to want it too, and every major problem she can envision is being shut down so casually. Its TOO PERFECT. Just having something, anything negative about the setup is a comfort because she "knows" nothing is perfect and doesnt want to be blind sided by the problem. As for her previous tools, you mean boinking on the first date and waiting to see how much of a jerk the guy is the next morning?

[Gnoman]

Might not just be a "too good to be true" thing. Someone who's a little bit distrusting is likely to see someone acting this agreeable to be suspicious, and thus relieved when patchable cracks form.

[Wraith]

I have mixed feelings about today's comic.

On the one hand, Renee hasn't done anything wrong.
She's nervous and is babbling a bit, but that's only to be expected; she's in an actual relationship, AND it's with someone who isn't a complete ******* at last! Hooray!
Similarly she hasn't made any specific demands of Dan - she's suggested that they should meet up as often as practically possible, and when not possible, they should keep in touch with facetime, etc. These are all perfectly normal things to suggest at the opening of a long distance relationship, and she hasn't insisted on a specific schedule or anything - just invited Dan to the idea that it is something that she would like to discuss, to which Dan has agreed that yes, we should discuss this.

On the other hand, there's two things that sort of tie together; one about the characters and the other about the strip itself.

The issue with the strip is that Jeph seems determined to squeeze absolutely every single potential line of dialogue out of this conversation as possible - it's been going on all week, and the last 3 days have been the same conversation repeated in different ways, all of which sum up to "I would like a relationship with you even though it would be difficult - Okay - Really, even though it will be difficult?" etc etc. Its just dragging out the same 2 or 3 points over and over, when nearly everything in today's strip could have been implied in yesterday's but instead had to be spelled out in full.
It would have been a lot better to read with a break - like, Dan and Renee agree to be a thing, hug and kiss, have a little celebration, and then in a few days they have a 'phone call or something to discuss specifics - change the scene, change the setting, make it different and show the characters developing over time instead of just dumping several conversation all at once, y'know?

Secondly, tying into that.... I can't remember seeing anyone in fiction less pleased to be in a relationship with each other. You'd think that one or the other of them would show some passion and give the other a smooch or something when they'd agreed to go steady, but this is more like a business transaction. For Gods' sake Dan; put your arm around her or something! Being laid-back is one thing, but showing some kind of emotion would be nice. It's really hard to look at these two who have been knockin' boots for a week and believe that they have feelings for each other, had they not stated it out loud several times.

In fact, HAVE they even stated affection for each other at all? They said they'd had a fun week and Renee wanted to start a more stable relationship... I don't remember a phrase such as "I like you" being deployed as yet...

Also the art sucks. Renee's nose and bosom keep changing size, sometimes from panel to panel. That's 3 things admittedly, but I don't care.

[Max_Killjoy]

I think it would have been fine if she'd stopped after Wednesday's comic.

This is Jeph killing the joke in SNL fashion, going on 50% longer than it was funny.

[Willie the Duck]

I agree, everything is going smoothly. She likes this guy, he is willing to give what she wants a try and seems to want it too, and every major problem she can envision is being shut down so casually. Its TOO PERFECT. Just having something, anything negative about the setup is a comfort because she "knows" nothing is perfect and doesnt want to be blind sided by the problem. As for her previous tools, you mean boinking on the first date and waiting to see how much of a jerk the guy is the next morning?

I mean tools like coping tools; recognizing problems that need attention; how to just exist, day-to-day, in such a situation; and the like. Renee's (non-)relationship issues are a far cry from things like people with PTSD, who come from abusive relationships, are addiction, but in this case I see a parallel. In the past bad situations, she knows what to do in all the badness. In a newfound good situation, all the life-experience 'training' she has no longer apply.

Secondly, tying into that.... I can't remember seeing anyone in fiction less pleased to be in a relationship with each other. You'd think that one or the other of them would show some passion and give the other a smooch or something when they'd agreed to go steady, but this is more like a business transaction. For Gods' sake Dan; put your arm around her or something! Being laid-back is one thing, but showing some kind of emotion would be nice. It's really hard to look at these two who have been knockin' boots for a week and believe that they have feelings for each other, had they not stated it out loud several times.

In fact, HAVE they even stated affection for each other at all? They said they'd had a fun week and Renee wanted to start a more stable relationship... I don't remember a phrase such as "I like you" being deployed as yet...

I think one issue with this plot thread is that it has been so long (as far as intervening events) since the main body of this thread was active. Heck, even since the last time we saw Dan (#4443, certainly not the primary component of his role), we've had Clinton and Elliott in the bakery, Clinton meets Willow, Checking in on Faye-Bubbles, Claire's job search/Hanners putting emotion into tea, Dinner at Aurelia's house (with aside jump to Yay), and the Aurelia is a stoner-streamer storylines. Any momentum has been lost. I know people really liked Dan (because he was a little bit 'one of us, but cool too' or something), but that's about it.

[Cazero]

Haaa, good ole' engineer school cult adjacent hazing rituals.

[Wildstag]

Also the art sucks. Renee's nose and bosom keep changing size, sometimes from panel to panel. That's 3 things admittedly, but I don't care.

I'd noticed the wild inconsistency with the way her body is drawn throughout the different art styles, but would not have noticed that nose issue until you pointed it out. Like, just comparing the last panel of today's and yesterday's (4505 and 4504 respectively), her nose is two different sizes despite being shown from the same angle.

And this whole "longwinded explanation" thing makes it seem like Jeph is channeling his inner Wil ("I have been known to use 10 words when 1 would suffice" or whatever the exact quote was).

[Max_Killjoy]

Original Rene...
https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1845

[Mechalich]

Renee's initial appearance was a background one-of, she fairly obviously underwent a significant re-design before returning to the comic in a significant capacity. Renee reappeared in the 3200s, as part of Brun's storyline. She still looked drastically different from her current design. Specifically, Jeph has made a number of modifications that, collectively, greatly increase Renee's overall attractiveness (ex. she's drawn ~25 lbs lighter and her bust has been...adjusted) and also make her appearance more conventional (her nose ring and ear plugs have vanished). This matters because personal appearance significantly influences both how other characters evaluate relationship prospects and how characters think about their own relationship prospects. I mean, the very genesis of the Renee/Dan relationship is that Dan reappeared on social media with a drastically upgraded appearance from what Brun and Renee remembered, so altering Renee's appearance without any comment - presumably at least several months have passed in the course of ~1200 comics, Renee absolutely could have undergone substantial weight loss during that time - undercuts the story.

What's really disappointing is that Jeph has handled this better in the past. When Faye went to work for the robot fight club her general exertion level increased drastically and her appearance changed as a result and people noticed and commented on it!

[VoxRationis]

Specifically, Jeph has made a number of modifications that, collectively, greatly increase Renee's overall attractiveness (ex. she's drawn ~25 lbs lighter and her bust has been...adjusted) and also make her appearance more conventional (her nose ring and ear plugs have vanished).

These particular elements are part of a general art shift as the author wavers between stylized figures and naturalistic ones. If we compare most characters between now and the point you picked out, we see the same sorts of shifts in relative head size, eye size, abdomen and hip proportions, whether the hair is pendulous or self-supporting, how high the bust sits on women, jaw angles, et cetera. Right now, the art style is almost animesque, with jaws that couldn't fit a set of teeth and bushbaby-like eyes crammed inside large heads on spindly, concave necks. If you go back to 1500, all the characters have nearly cylindrical limbs with little muscle definition but seem proportionally reasonable. There are other points where all the women look like flappers. I can't really speculate on why these shifts occur, but they do. I wouldn't say that Renee's changes stem from wanting to make her in particular more approachable.

[Wraith]

So Jeph *can* draw two of his characters kissing in-panel, like it's just a normal throw-away thing for two people who have decided to that they like each other and want to make it 'official'.

He just chooses not to do it for his male/male couple that he has spent over a year match-making and still hasn't fully resolved, and this has absolutely no weird implications at all. NICE.

Also; 'the hell is up with their noses? Why are they sitting off-centre like that, looking left eye-to-left eye, instead of just... facing each other?

[John Cribati]

Not going to argue the first point, but as to Dan and Renee’s awkward positioning, that’s the “whispering sweet nothings to each other in-between kisses” position. They want to be close enough to kiss again, but I imagine it’s hard to talk with you mouth pressed ip against another person’s.

[Wraith]

Okay, fair, it is a nit-pick rather than a real problem. It's just a bit awkward; they could be touching the tips of their noses and it would still be just as intimate, but for them to be talking with noses side-by-side just makes it look like Jeph couldn't figure out how to fit them in the frame properly. Or started drawing them from the eyes and didn't realise he hadn't left enough room until it was too late.

[Thufir]

So Jeph *can* draw two of his characters kissing in-panel, like it's just a normal throw-away thing for two people who have decided to that they like each other and want to make it 'official'.

He just chooses not to do it for his male/male couple that he has spent over a year match-making and still hasn't fully resolved, and this has absolutely no weird implications at all. NICE.

I guess you forgot this one?

[Yuki Akuma]

So Jeph *can* draw two of his characters kissing in-panel, like it's just a normal throw-away thing for two people who have decided to that they like each other and want to make it 'official'.

He just chooses not to do it for his male/male couple that he has spent over a year match-making and still hasn't fully resolved, and this has absolutely no weird implications at all. NICE.

You already forgot something that happened twenty updates ago?

That's like a month, dude. Wow.

[Wraith]

Evidently I did. That's what I get for browsing Reddit before posting and showing my backside with what I thought was witty snark.

I kind of stand by the sentiment, though. Dan has been in the comic for... what, 15 strips? Maybe 20, if you include the pictures of his Facebook account on Renee's phone? And yet we've already seen him naked in post-coital repose.

Elliot and Clinton's Will They/Won't They drama has been going on since Strip 3536, which was published in nearly 4 years ago, and all we've gotten is one surprised smooch that quickly cut them out of panel in the very next strip. Putting aside the comics generally glacial pace, I can't help but feel that this arc has been dragged out especially long just for titillation, which is starting to feel exploitative.

[Max_Killjoy]

Evidently I did. That's what I get for browsing Reddit before posting and showing my backside with what I thought was witty snark.

I kind of stand by the sentiment, though. Dan has been in the comic for... what, 15 strips? Maybe 20, if you include the pictures of his Facebook account on Renee's phone? And yet we've already seen him naked in post-coital repose.

Elliot and Clinton's Will They/Won't They drama has been going on since Strip 3536, which was published in nearly 4 years ago, and all we've gotten is one surprised smooch that quickly cut them out of panel in the very next strip. Putting aside the comics generally glacial pace, I can't help but feel that this arc has been dragged out especially long just for titillation, which is starting to feel exploitative.

On the other hand, Renee and Dan came into this both confidently and comfortably knowing that they were attracted to each other's gender.

[Traab]

Or its just that renee is a tertiary character which makes her new long distance boyfriend even less important, meanwhile will and clinton are both at least secondary characters who deserve actual effort in their character building. Just slapping them together with a "Hey, wanna bone on the regular?" "Yeah ok" /HUMP! would be a bad thing for their character development. Im sure if renee or her boyfriend (dan?) get an interesting bit of popularity jeph will focus more detail on them in some way, but for now its basically background.

[Keltest]

Or its just that renee is a tertiary character which makes her new long distance boyfriend even less important, meanwhile will and clinton are both at least secondary characters who deserve actual effort in their character building. Just slapping them together with a "Hey, wanna bone on the regular?" "Yeah ok" /HUMP! would be a bad thing for their character development. Im sure if renee or her boyfriend (dan?) get an interesting bit of popularity jeph will focus more detail on them in some way, but for now its basically background.

I feel absolutely confidant in saying that Jeph draws whoever he feels like fixating on that morning, and that a character's role in the story or relatively popularity has nothing to do with it.

Case in point, Renee is still in the comic.

[Taevyr]

Renee hasn't been tertiary for quite a while, though. Hell, she and brun get about the same "screen time" as the original extended cast these days.

And Jeph isn't exactly entirely consistent in who he decides to focus on anyway. e.g. I'm fairly certain Ms. Augustus streaming career was one of those random ideas you wake up with one day and he just randomly threw it in there.

[Willie the Duck]

I kind of stand by the sentiment, though. Dan has been in the comic for... what, 15 strips? Maybe 20, if you include the pictures of his Facebook account on Renee's phone? And yet we've already seen him naked in post-coital repose.

Elliot and Clinton's Will They/Won't They drama has been going on since Strip 3536, which was published in nearly 4 years ago, and all we've gotten is one surprised smooch that quickly cut them out of panel in the very next strip. Putting aside the comics generally glacial pace, I can't help but feel that this arc has been dragged out especially long just for titillation, which is starting to feel exploitative.

You think the lack of a big sloppy kiss is titillation and exploitative?

[Wraith]

On the other hand, Renee and Dan came into this both confidently and comfortably knowing that they were attracted to each other's gender.

Faye and Bubbles met in 3003 and finally kissed in 3744, so it can be done. Not that "number of strips taken" is the only important measure, but in particular they were doing other things besides just making googly eyes at each other. There was a significant arc where they just worked together as colleagues, then made friends, then the Corpse Witch/erased memories thing, moving in together, starting up the business together, drifting closer, Faye talking it out with her sister and her fiance.... To say nothing of other characters' stories going on at the same time.
Clinton and Elliot have kind of just circled the same issue for years and the only thing they have done between is... find out that Brun isn't into either of them? And now they're still nervous and unsure about each other, as hardly any progress has been made between them. I'm truly not trying to be facetious here, it really feels like a week of in-comic time might have passed since 2017.

You think the lack of a big sloppy kiss is titillation and exploitative?

As above. It's more like, nothing else has been done with them throughout all that time, just them teasing over and over. I don't want to be crude and just say that Clinton and Elliot have had ~1,000 strips so they should be bangin' by now because that's not how stories work. I do feel, however, that this arc is really boring and that the only redeeming feature it has is that it involves a gay sort-of relationship, and to be honest I really do feel like that's a big part of the reason that it has been dragged out so long.

[Gez]

I feel absolutely confidant in saying that Jeph draws whoever he feels like fixating on that morning, and that a character's role in the story or relatively popularity has nothing to do with it.

Case in point, Renee is still in the comic.

Other case in point: this went nowhere. Just didn't feel like continuing the streamchat arc I guess.

[Max_Killjoy]

Other case in point: this went nowhere. Just didn't feel like continuing the streamchat arc I guess.

It's been about 10 strips since then, he might get back to it.

Or he might well just drop it.

[Traab]

Faye and Bubbles met in 3003 and finally kissed in 3744, so it can be done. Not that "number of strips taken" is the only important measure, but in particular they were doing other things besides just making googly eyes at each other. There was a significant arc where they just worked together as colleagues, then made friends, then the Corpse Witch/erased memories thing, moving in together, starting up the business together, drifting closer, Faye talking it out with her sister and her fiance.... To say nothing of other characters' stories going on at the same time.
Clinton and Elliot have kind of just circled the same issue for years and the only thing they have done between is... find out that Brun isn't into either of them? And now they're still nervous and unsure about each other, as hardly any progress has been made between them. I'm truly not trying to be facetious here, it really feels like a week of in-comic time might have passed since 2017.



As above. It's more like, nothing else has been done with them throughout all that time, just them teasing over and over. I don't want to be crude and just say that Clinton and Elliot have had ~1,000 strips so they should be bangin' by now because that's not how stories work. I do feel, however, that this arc is really boring and that the only redeeming feature it has is that it involves a gay sort-of relationship, and to be honest I really do feel like that's a big part of the reason that it has been dragged out so long.

In the time the clinton brun and elliot triangle has taken place they have each discussed things with friends, made attempts to make moves, discovered at least one leg of the tripod is totally uninterested, then taken steps to admit how they feel and come to at least a conclusion. Its not like they were just sitting there in neutral with nothing happening. I will admit the faye bubbles arc(s) were a lot more compelling but not everyone can be involved in illegal robo fighting rings with blackmailing con artist super criminals.

[Wraith]

In the time the clinton brun and elliot triangle has taken place they have each discussed things with friends, made attempts to make moves, discovered at least one leg of the tripod is totally uninterested, then taken steps to admit how they feel and come to at least a conclusion.

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make.

Faye and Bubbles relationship included; Faye learning to repair robots, Faye getting worried about the legality of the job when meeting Roko and confiding in Bubbles and Corpse Witch, Faye trying to socialise Bubbles with her other friends, Bubbles explaining her backstory, Faye worrying about her sister, asking Dora to secure their loan, setting up a business, and so on. They're living their lives and doing stuff while romance simmers beneath.

Between Clinton and Elliot, there's not much else going on. They have talked about The Relationship with each other, talked about The Relationship with Brun, talked about The Relationship with Yay, talked about The Relationship with Renee, talked about The Relationship with Aurelia, talked about The Relationship with random strangers like Willow, and eventually they have now sort-of embarked upon The Relationship. Maybe.

It's not that I'm complaining that they have spent 1,000 strips exploring a relationship with each other, it more the fact that this arc is so dense with The Relationship and apparently nothing else. Clinton hasn't mentioned his research/schooling outside of small-talk on the dates, Elliot has had one lesson with his apprentice baker Roko, neither of them have gone to hang out with other friends who weren't already waiting in their apartment when they got home... there's seemingly nothing else going on in their lives apart from angsting about relationships, y'know?
Even Martin, the passive and angsty doormat that he is and especially was earlier in the comic, found a new job, got promoted, joined a band, hung out with his would-be step-sister, visited a Space Station and went to his Dad's wedding in between his woeful romantic endeavours.

[Traab]

Well todays update is the latest in the series of "Today Jeph attacks something in the real world he hates" is Roko going to be his primary social justice mouthpiece from now on? Just throw a thin veneer of it being AI related to pretend its totally not an indictment of a real world policy and pontificate.