The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[Vinyadan]

I made my own



(added image for mobile users)

[LibraryOgre]

So, one thing I am hopeful for, if they update the Engine for Elder Scrolls 6: The return of climbing and levitation. I loved climbing SO MUCH in my replay of Daggerfall. And levitation is incredibly fun, even if the NPCs never actually use it (the only person you see in the air is Tarhiel... and we know how that worked out)

[Keltest]

So, one thing I am hopeful for, if they update the Engine for Elder Scrolls 6: The return of climbing and levitation. I loved climbing SO MUCH in my replay of Daggerfall. And levitation is incredibly fun, even if the NPCs never actually use it (the only person you see in the air is Tarhiel... and we know how that worked out)

I saw a news article the other day that claimed they were building a new engine for ES6 and other games going forward, but as with everything else about ES6 i have no real way of verifying that this is accurate.

[factotum]

I'd kind of be surprised if they brought levitation and climbing back--it must be so much easier for them to create worlds without them; no need to worry the player will fly over your city walls and discover the interior is entirely empty because you haven't loaded that cell, for instance! Especially since everything else they've done in the last 15 years has tended towards simplifying and removing game mechanics, not putting them back in.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

So, one thing I am hopeful for, if they update the Engine for Elder Scrolls 6: The return of climbing and levitation. I loved climbing SO MUCH in my replay of Daggerfall. And levitation is incredibly fun, even if the NPCs never actually use it (the only person you see in the air is Tarhiel... and we know how that worked out)

I’m going to second this. And also add that I would like to see Mark and Recall added back in. And a ‘Conjure Steed’ spell in the base game. No self-respecting wizard should have to walk everywhere!

[Fyraltari]

And the Thieves? It makes me happy to know someone is playing Morrowind again. Thank you.

I’ve been playing Morrowind for the first time for a while now. I’m in the middle of Tribunal main quest line. I just bought a new game though, so it’s going to be on hold for a while.

[LibraryOgre]

I’m going to second this. And also add that I would like to see Mark and Recall added back in. And a ‘Conjure Steed’ spell in the base game. No self-respecting wizard should have to walk everywhere!

There's something AWESOME in Morrowind travel mechanics. Like, you can walk, or you can follow this web of different fast-travel options to get you as close as possible. You can fly, if you want to. If you're really nuts, you can fly SUPER FAST, while COMPLETELY BLIND.

[Aeson]

If you're really nuts, you can fly SUPER FAST, while COMPLETELY BLIND.

Using the Boots of Blinding Speed isn't that nuts even in combination with a high-strength levitation effect and a lack of net-positive Resistance to Magicka to ameliorate the Blind effect. You're flying, so unless you're groundskimming most enemies can't reach you and you're rather unlikely to run into and get stuck on an obstacle, and on top of that you're fast so even enemies that can reach you probably cannot catch you - but you're still probably not so fast as to make navigation-by-minimap unfeasible, so unlike the Scrolls of Icarian Flight, where a slight misalignment or mistaken estimation of jump distance can send you way off course, you have pretty good control over where you end up even if you cannot see anything. Also, combining the Boots of Blinding Speed and a levitation effect is a lot more repeatable than the Scrolls of Icarian Flight are, since without the use of the console you get three uses of the Scrolls of Icarian Flight and then they're gone. 'Really nuts' is combining the Boots of Blinding Speed with a Scroll of Icarian Flight and a total lack of Resistance to Magicka and then taking a running jump without looking where you're going.

[Misery Esquire]

'Really nuts' is combining the Boots of Blinding Speed with a Scroll of Icarian Flight and a total lack of Resistance to Magicka and then taking a running jump without looking where you're going.

Objective : Dream that you're aimed toward the coast, or that you somehow miraculously hit one of the many very small ponds scattered over the island.

[Vinyadan]

There's something AWESOME in Morrowind travel mechanics. Like, you can walk, or you can follow this web of different fast-travel options to get you as close as possible. You can fly, if you want to. If you're really nuts, you can fly SUPER FAST, while COMPLETELY BLIND.

You forgot "you can jump 10,000 metres, while COMPLETELY BLIND".

Also, I seem to remember werewolves having an impossibly huge jumping range, the sort that made you think "wow, am I still up in the air?". Compared to normal characters, it even felt like a bug.

[Rynjin]

I'd kind of be surprised if they brought levitation and climbing back--it must be so much easier for them to create worlds without them; no need to worry the player will fly over your city walls and discover the interior is entirely empty because you haven't loaded that cell, for instance! Especially since everything else they've done in the last 15 years has tended towards simplifying and removing game mechanics, not putting them back in.

Ehhh, they have pretty much no excuse for ES6 not to have seamless transition between interior and exterior cells. Mods have been adding that feature in for cities since OBLIVION (janka s it was there), and it works perfectly in Skyrim.

[veti]

Ehhh, they have pretty much no excuse for ES6 not to have seamless transition between interior and exterior cells. Mods have been adding that feature in for cities since OBLIVION (janka s it was there), and it works perfectly in Skyrim.

I understood it was a sacrifice to the limitations of the consoles that Bethesda was determined to support. Maybe wouldn't be necessary if the franchise were to go Windows-only - but there'd still be the XBox...

Above that, what the huge limitation on movement (introduced in Oblivion and continued in Skyrim) achieves is, it makes it a lot easier (more linear) to write quests. You can put triggers and encounters in certain places, and be reasonably sure that the player will trigger them at the appropriate time. If you can just teleport, then (for instance) they'd need to figure out another way to force you to talk to Hermaeus Mora before you can get out of Septimus Signis' outpost on your second visit.

[Anteros]

I can see how it makes it easier to write linear quests, but considering the level of writing Skyrim provides...I'd rather just take the extra sandbox mobility over more of that.

I can't really think of anything outside of that one troll encounter at the start of the main quest that you'd circumvent by levitation anyway. I'm sure there's other examples, but most of the quests are just "go here and talk to this person" or "go here and watch this event unfold"

[Vinyadan]

Above that, what the huge limitation on movement (introduced in Oblivion and continued in Skyrim) achieves is, it makes it a lot easier (more linear) to write quests. You can put triggers and encounters in certain places, and be reasonably sure that the player will trigger them at the appropriate time. If you can just teleport, then (for instance) they'd need to figure out another way to force you to talk to Hermaeus Mora before you can get out of Septimus Signis' outpost on your second visit.

It's very relative. I think Skyrim's Molag Bal mission, for example, would have benefited from an opt-out option. I definitely would have rather teleported away, than be forced to kill that other guy.

And yet, they wouldn't have allowed it -- they would have made teleport unusable. You were to be left without options, because that's what makes games fun.

About this, here are some options I thought of: you could have...

• infiltrated the Thieves Guild for the guards
• used your clout as a Thane to have Grelod removed or substituted and given Aretino a tuition at the college of Bards, or any other guild, or even give him to hunters as a ward (which leads to him killing Grelod after a while, as he was put in a place where he could obtain the necessary skills; you could even have to investigate that, find him, and decide what to do).
• discovered a use for the ebony blade, other than "put it in your friends" (although you can roleplay as the "keeper of dangerous stuff that are best left alone").
• informed the priest of Arkay beforehand, so you could prepare a proper sting (this isn't really a matter of choice, but, rather, a matter of placement of the choice).
• once you leave the house of Molag Bal, you should be able to really help out the priest of Boethiah, especially if you are her champion. Like, talk to him plainly, and tell him what's going on. Boethia could have given you Goldbrand (which doubles as a useful alternative, if you aren't into maces). Even when you have to torture him, you should have an option to save him.

I wonder how resource-consuming quests are, when developing a game like Skyrim. I understand that e.g. voiced dialogues increase costs and make backtracking hard, but, compared to graphics and the massive worldbuilding, writing and scripting don't sound too enormous.

[factotum]

It's very relative. I think Skyrim's Molag Bal mission, for example, would have benefited from an opt-out option. I definitely would have rather teleported away, than be forced to kill that other guy.

I think that's really a problem with the quest design rather than the lack of teleportation. There are plenty of points while you're doing that quest that you really *ought* to get an alternate option where you tell Molag Bal to insert his mace where the sun don't shine. Really, the biggest issue is that, unless you know what's coming, you get railroaded--you go in to what you think is going to be helping someone out, then suddenly it turns into murderdeathkill.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Above that, what the huge limitation on movement (introduced in Oblivion and continued in Skyrim) achieves is, it makes it a lot easier (more linear) to write quests. You can put triggers and encounters in certain places, and be reasonably sure that the player will trigger them at the appropriate time. If you can just teleport, then (for instance) they'd need to figure out another way to force you to talk to Hermaeus Mora before you can get out of Septimus Signis' outpost on your second visit.

ESO already has to deal with that if you port (which you can do at virtually any time) or die and respawn, so they’ve had lots of opportunity to practice.

[LibraryOgre]

Restarted Morrowind, despite being top of Fighters, Redoran, and Thieves. This restart is actually the first time I've encountered the Fort Firemoth quest... just never talked to that guy enough, I guess. Unfortunately, I discovered it right in Seyda Neen, when I was WILDLY unprepared for anything like that.

[veti]

There are plenty of points while you're doing that quest that you really *ought* to get an alternate option where you tell Molag Bal to insert his mace where the sun don't shine. Really, the biggest issue is that, unless you know what's coming, you get railroaded--you go in to what you think is going to be helping someone out, then suddenly it turns into murderdeathkill.

Molag Bal is not into "giving people options". Forcing you to do distasteful things is what he does. (Unlike the other princes, who merely "tempt" you to do them.)

If you want to get back at MB, you'll need to play Vigilant. And even that requires you to do more unpleasant stuff along the way. But the result is epic, and in the end you can finally succeed in getting some respect from him.

I wonder how resource-consuming quests are, when developing a game like Skyrim. I understand that e.g. voiced dialogues increase costs and make backtracking hard, but, compared to graphics and the massive worldbuilding, writing and scripting don't sound too enormous.

It's not exactly about resources, it's about the level of complexity they can add to the game. Quests are designed to progress in clearly defined stages. For instance, when you're in the haunted house, your objective is to escape from it - which you can only do, as written, by killing the vigilant and finding Bal's thingummy. You can do whatever else you like in there, but before you can leave, those two things must have happened.

If it were possible to escape the house, then more possibilities open up. Is the vigilant still alive? Did he escape the same way, or did he find Bal's... whatever it is - and agree to work for him, or refuse,or what? What happens if you go to the place where the priest of Boethiah should be?

Of course it's possible to answer all these questions, but it adds a lot more variables and states to the quest. Someone has to think all that out, then write up all the possible permutations; then someone else has to code it, and a third person gets to test it, and by this time something that was supposed to be a simple linear quest requiring maybe a day of dev-time has already taken a whole week.

Which wouldn't be too bad if it was the only such instance in the game. But once you start giving that sort of treatment to minor side quests like this, where does it stop? Pretty soon you've added six months to the development cycle, which is time during which you have to keep paying your developers and getting absolutely no money from customers. Your iinvestors are getting impatient.

[The_Jackal]

But once you start giving that sort of treatment to minor side quests like this, where does it stop? Pretty soon you've added six months to the development cycle, which is time during which you have to keep paying your developers and getting absolutely no money from customers. Your investors are getting impatient.

This is exactly what game consumers need to understand about linearity vs. choice: Every real, meaningful choice you offer a player in your story arc effectively doubles the work you must put into a particular piece of content. So you can have 5 quests in your game, each one of which has one branch, or 10 quests in your game with no branches. And plenty of games manage to get by just fine while having exactly zero meaningful choices.

This is how Outer Worlds is able to be finished in 12 minutes.

[Rynjin]

Yes, I think most people understand that making better content requires more work.

What I think some people DON'T understand is that most consumers care only about the end product, not what goes on behind the scenes. I personally don't particularly care how much work is needed to go into a project* to produce a superior product. You have a job, sometimes work is harder. I'm not going to cry tears over it, the same way I won't exactly be sympathetic if my mechanic says it's "too hard" to fix my car properly and leaves the job half done.

*The exception to this is exploitative crunch cycles, which are sadly common in the industry. But the scenario proposed (where they're actually taking more TIME to flesh out these things) likely won't constitute a scenario like that.

[Lord Raziere]

Yes, I think most people understand that making better content requires more work.

What I think some people DON'T understand is that most consumers care only about the end product, not what goes on behind the scenes. I personally don't particularly care how much work is needed to go into a project* to produce a superior product. You have a job, sometimes work is harder. I'm not going to cry tears over it, the same way I won't exactly be sympathetic if my mechanic says it's "too hard" to fix my car properly and leaves the job half done.

*The exception to this is exploitative crunch cycles, which are sadly common in the industry. But the scenario proposed (where they're actually taking more TIME to flesh out these things) likely won't constitute a scenario like that.

Agreed. I don't buy things to "support the industry/company" I don't buy things out of "sympathy that they couldn't do better", thats not being a consumer, thats a charity case. I buy things because they are good product that I want to use and have fun with. if they won't produce one, too bad, I'm finding something else that is good to spend my money on instead, thats how it works. agreed with exploitative crunch cycles to, because while I'm not going to buy things out of sympathy, no one deserves that kind of thing.

[Keltest]

Agreed. I don't buy things to "support the industry/company" I don't buy things out of "sympathy that they couldn't do better", thats not being a consumer, thats a charity case. I buy things because they are good product that I want to use and have fun with. if they won't produce one, too bad, I'm finding something else that is good to spend my money on instead, thats how it works. agreed with exploitative crunch cycles to, because while I'm not going to buy things out of sympathy, no one deserves that kind of thing.

Adding my voice to this. Take more time on the project if you need it. As long as youre treating your devs and staff well, im willing to wait longer if it takes longer, as long as it actually adds quality.

[veti]

Adding my voice to this. Take more time on the project if you need it. As long as youre treating your devs and staff well, im willing to wait longer if it takes longer, as long as it actually adds quality.

The aim is to get a product in the shops so that money can flow into the company. The product should be good enough to sell, build a fanbase and not provoke outright contempt - but if you try to get fancy, to go beyond that and build a "premium" product, then you reduce your sales (there are not that many people who are willing to pay $100 for a new game, when so many others are available for $60), and there's no guarantee you'll end up with more money to show for all that effort. And you'll certainly have to wait longer for it.

Skyrim was released on 11/11/11. Bethesda had been trying to work up some new IPs, most notably Rage, but it hadn't had a really major hit since Fallout 3 in 2008. Its management, and more importantly its investors, were counting on the revenue from a new Elder Scrolls title to keep them going. Somebody had to keep paychecks flowing in for >200 people for the next four years (until Fallout 4), and nobody was stumping up that sort of money either out of charity or sheer love of gaming.

[Rodin]

This is exactly what game consumers need to understand about linearity vs. choice: Every real, meaningful choice you offer a player in your story arc effectively doubles the work you must put into a particular piece of content. So you can have 5 quests in your game, each one of which has one branch, or 10 quests in your game with no branches. And plenty of games manage to get by just fine while having exactly zero meaningful choices.

This is how Outer Worlds is able to be finished in 12 minutes.

I would argue that Bethesda games carry it too far in one direction. Do we really need 1000 quests with only one outcome? Why not 500 quests that let you make a choice? How many ruined fortresses with no quests attached to them do you need in your world, and could the people designing those be put towards quest design instead? Is it better to built a massive empty space like Fallout 3/4, or is it better to concentrate the content like Fallout New Vegas and Outer Worlds?

I tend towards quality (and choice) over quantity. If I wanted to do mindless questing I'd re-up my World of Warcraft account (or play Fallout 76). I'm much more interested in a world with detailed storylines and quests, even if that means fewer of them.

[Divayth Fyr]

I would argue that Bethesda games carry it too far in one direction. Do we really need 1000 quests with only one outcome? Why not 500 quests that let you make a choice?

While true, Skyrim hasn't got enough quests to be able to get away with halving the number ;) And even if we did, we'd simply open another can of wormscomplaints.

How many ruined fortresses with no quests attached to them do you need in your world, and could the people designing those be put towards quest design instead?

Most of them couldn't. Building ruined fortresses is done by different people (at least in larger companies) than quest design, people with different skill sets, which don't help in designing quests.

[Vinyadan]

The thing is, Skyrim would have been a hit, no matter what. The formula was there in Morrowind and Oblivion and the Fallouts, and being part of the series conferred it a justified hype. And Skyrim kept making money for years, in part because of its status as an icon, in part through little add-ons on the Creation club and re-releases.

Both Morrowind and Oblivion underwent delays (from late 2001 to May 2002, and from 22/11/2005 to 20/3/2006, respectively). Skyrim instead kept to its own original announcement date. And, if Skyrim remains a fantastic game because of the immense, hand-crafted world, this does create a stark contrast to the writing. The decision to rush the product forward no matter what to meet an easy to remember, visually impactful deadline may have been a marketing stroke of genius, but it's also very different from how previous Bethesda games were handled. Money over anything else? That's great, but that's my money.

However, credit where it's due, Skyrim did surpass other Bethesda games, and especially Oblivion, in localization. That was definitely not rushed.

[factotum]

I would argue that Bethesda games carry it too far in one direction. Do we really need 1000 quests with only one outcome? Why not 500 quests that let you make a choice? How many ruined fortresses with no quests attached to them do you need in your world, and could the people designing those be put towards quest design instead? Is it better to built a massive empty space like Fallout 3/4, or is it better to concentrate the content like Fallout New Vegas and Outer Worlds?

I've said it before, but it bears repeating: Far Harbour (Fallout 4 DLC) shows that Bethesda is perfectly capable of doing branching quests with multiple possible outcomes in a small(ish) cut off part of the world. I think it would have been possible to split the Holds in Skyrim up in the same way and have some real meaty sidequests there that just never affect the area outside the Hold in question.

[Fyraltari]

I hear the siren call of the immersive sim.

[The_Jackal]

Yes, I think most people understand that making better content requires more work.

Not the way they talk. When people harp on a fully voiced 3d game to somehow have the same narrative depth as a game with isometric graphics and text, they sound delusional to me. Time is money, and games developers that can't turn a profit go broke.

What I think some people DON'T understand is that most consumers care only about the end product, not what goes on behind the scenes. I personally don't particularly care how much work is needed to go into a project* to produce a superior product. You have a job, sometimes work is harder. I'm not going to cry tears over it, the same way I won't exactly be sympathetic if my mechanic says it's "too hard" to fix my car properly and leaves the job half done.

*The exception to this is exploitative crunch cycles, which are sadly common in the industry. But the scenario proposed (where they're actually taking more TIME to flesh out these things) likely won't constitute a scenario like that.

Well, that's a remarkably convenient way of asking for things that can't happen in the market. You don't want crunch, you don't want high prices, but you do want games with really high degrees of complexity and production values. This isn't car repair, this is people complaining that their Ford Escort doesn't have the features of a Bugatti Veyron. Well, everyone claimed that Obsidian could deliver that economy-priced super-RPG that would both deliver complexity and production values, and guess what: It's really, really short. Imagine my surprise.

Game publishers make profits or go broke, and a good percentage of their offerings *will* lose money, so the smash hits need to carry the dumpers, because the weird thing about creativity and artistry is that there's no formal process to reproduce it, and even if you could reproduce the same thing, fickle markets will get bored with repetition, that's how Call of Duty went from being an industry juggernaut to being a running joke. It's how Bethsoft went from being innovative and janky to being wildly successful to being a superfund site in the space of a decade.

[Vinyadan]

Skyrim, as observed, was released on 11.11.11, its original release date. This was unusual for recent TES games, as both Oblivion and Morrowind had had to be delayed by various months from the original release dates.

Now, on one hand, that 11.11.11 thing was a stroke of genius. The date was visually impressive and easy to remember, and marketing effectively turned it into a collective event still remembered many years later. However, I think that, by holding on to it, Skyrim could not be finished. The Civil War is the most obvious part, because of how much was left accessible through the editor, but invisible in game. I have little doubt that the writing was not completed adequately and need much work when it was implemented with impressive voicing and localization (Skyrim's localisation stands at least head and shoulders taller than that of Oblivion).

I doubt that this was done because Zenimax needed money to keep development going. Quite the opposite: I think that the game was rushed because of the massive significance of the 11.11.11 and to make more money than it would have otherwise. It sold a lot anyway, it's an awesome game anyway, it just has some very weird writing.