The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[Triaxx]

Not at my PC at the moment but an alternative option is Random Alternate Start. It can be tricky because when it drops you somewhere it does so on the assumption you can survive. Such as directly beside a Sabercat. Or inside Pinewatch which you can't leave without picking the lock.

That said it also gives a quest called Rumors of Dragons which has you investigate Helgen, see Alduin fly away and then the MQ continues as normal. Character creation takes place in Riverwood and it gives an option to wait up to 60 seconds so start up mods can configure. So you're not mid fight with a Sabercat when a pop-up breaks the rhythm.

[veti]

Not so sure about learning Fus though.

player.teachword 13e22

When you have to find Esbern in the Ratway you're instructed to talk to Brynyolf, but talking to him under normal circumstances will automatically start his own quest, and if you start his quest then you can't progress the quest o find Esbern until you complete his quest and join the Thieve guild.

Can't you? Keerava will point you to the Ragged Flagon, and once there Vekel will cheerfully sell you Esbern's location, even if you've never spoken to Brynjolf at all. Does talking to Brynjolf break that?

That might be the case in previous games, but in Skyrim the main questline actively directs you to join both the Thieves Guild and the college.

You can bypass this, but it's clearly not the intended way of doing so.

The Dark Brotherhood and Thieve's guild cross-reference each other, while the Dark Brotherhood also has a reference to the Companions.

But there's absolutely no reason to join the DB unless you want to. Even if you do get curious enough to kill Grelod, there's still an alternative way of dealing with what happens next. There's a couple of people in the TG who talk about the DB, but that's all they do - talk. There's no sign of any actual, y'know, connection there.

Yes, you can do everything, because Bethesda was told to pitch the game like that. But it's not by any means required, or even particularly encouraged.

[Rater202]

Can't you? Keerava will point you to the Ragged Flagon, and once there Vekel will cheerfully sell you Esbern's location, even if you've never spoken to Brynjolf at all. Does talking to Brynjolf break that?

the quest objective points you to Brynjolf.

That you can bypass this by talking to someone else is probably a bonus for people who explore the town and talk to people rather than the intended way to progress the quest.

It's like the murder mystery in Windhelm, some quests give you an alternative option for completing them beyond the way the game tells you to. Hence the comment about bypassing it.

Considering the overlap and cross-referencing on quests, and the fact that you need to do every questline to get every shout, tells me that the intent of the game is that the Dragonborn completing the Companions, Thieves Guild, and College questlines and either joining or destroying the Dark Brotherhood are intended to be canon.

[veti]

Considering the overlap and cross-referencing on quests, and the fact that you need to do every questline to get every shout, tells me that the intent of the game is that the Dragonborn completing the Companions, Thieves Guild, and College questlines and either joining or destroying the Dark Brotherhood are intended to be canon.

I cannot accept your ideas of either "need" or "canon".

Not only is there no "need" to learn every shout, there's not the slightest reward or encouragement to do so. And by your definition of canon, I'm pretty sure the Hero of Kvatch did everything as well.

[Lurkmoar]

I cannot accept your ideas of either "need" or "canon".

Not only is there no "need" to learn every shout, there's not the slightest reward or encouragement to do so. And by your definition of canon, I'm pretty sure the Hero of Kvatch did everything as well.

Well...

Considering The Shivering Isles DLC for Oblivion and Sheggorath's comments in his quest in Skyrim...

That said, canon is very fluid in TES. The only real question is how far into the future that 6 will be.

[Fyraltari]

I'm pretty sure I've never started the Thieves' Guild before doing the main quest. I almost always tell Brynjolf I'm not interested. Hell, I've never actually finished the Thieves' Guild and I've done the main quest a few times.

[Rater202]

I cannot accept your ideas of either "need" or "canon".

Not only is there no "need" to learn every shout, there's not the slightest reward or encouragement to do so. And by your definition of canon, I'm pretty sure the Hero of Kvatch did everything as well.

It's called incentive.

There is an incentive for the Last Dragonborn to do every faction questline, because with the exception of the Dark Brotherhood it is the only way to completely master the Thu'um without cheating.

You don't have to, obviously, but the existence of the incentive indicates that there is a degree of intent on the part of the game develops that you do so.

Like, the Greybeards can and will tell you a location you physically can't go to to find a Word Wall. If they send you to find the word of Animal Allegiance tha'ts hidden away in Ysgramor's tomb, you're only getting rid of that quest marker if you don't do the Companions questline far enough to get full access to the tomb.

Likewise, the game instructs you to do certain things that would result in you joining a faction. You talk to Brynyolf and start the thieves guild storyline. You don't have to continue it, but that's what the game tells you to do to progress the main quest. You can bypass this, but the game doesn't tell you that you can do this.

Becuase the game encourages you to join the Thieves Guild and provides an incentive to complete the Thieves Guild questline, it can be assumed that the Thieves guild is canon.

Likewise with the College: The only way to not have to join the college is to stumble across one random weirdo in the wilderness. If you don't know he's there, then you'll never encounter him naturally because there' no incentive to find him before Urag tells you to go find him.

Then there's dialog. Delvin's dialog when sent to hire him to get supplies changes if you're in the Thieves guild: If you first encounter him via the Dark Brotherhood questline he's vaguely threatening up until you tell his Astrid sent you but if you're in the Thieves guild he comments that you're making friends all over the place.

If you're a werewolf, which can only happen by joining the Companions, it likewise unlocks special dialog with Astrid's husband whose name I can't spell off the top of my head.

Do you know what the Last Dragonborn's adventures have separate from the Hero of Kvatch? none of this cross-referencing! You being in the Thieves Guild, or the Dark Brotherhood, or Mages Guild, or arena grand champion, or Fighters guild in Oblivion is never commented on outside of their specific questlines. There's no special incentive beyond quest rewards to do those storylines. At not point are you encouraged to start them by the main quest.

And even then, In Skyrim Sheogorath alludes to being the HEro of Kvatch and to the events of the Dark Brotherhood questlines, in Skyrim, there exists a lockpicking skill book written by someone who claims to have heisted an Elder Scroll, and once you unlock the ability to summon Lucien Lechances Ghost he can sometimes comment that you remind him of another Listener who existed on a precipice of destiny so while the Hero of Kvatch didn't do everything, they apparently canonically did the Shivering Isles, Thieves Guild, and Dark Brotherhood.

@Frytaltyr: Have you ever done the Dark Brotherhood before or during the main quet? Becuase the Dark Brotherhood sends you to the Ragged Flagon twice, and I don't remember if that lets you bypass talking to Brynjolf for the main quest.

[Yuki Akuma]

Remember that time Bethesda couldn't decide which ending to make canon so they made all of them canon, even the ones that contradicted each other?

Bethesda is notoriously weird about keeping the timeline straight.

[veti]

It's called incentive.

There is an incentive for the Last Dragonborn to do every faction questline, because with the exception of the Dark Brotherhood it is the only way to completely master the Thu'um without cheating.

And what is the "incentive" to do that? Does it unlock more special powers, more interesting dialogue, does it make it a whit easier to defeat Alduin or anyone else for that matter? No, no, and no.

There isn't even a Steam achievement for it. In short, there's not a hint of evidence that the idea ever crossed anyone's mind.

Like, the Greybeards can and will tell you a location you physically can't go to to find a Word Wall. If they send you to find the word of Animal Allegiance tha'ts hidden away in Ysgramor's tomb, you're only getting rid of that quest marker if you don't do the Companions questline far enough to get full access to the tomb.

Point of fact, it's perfectly possible to get to that wall without entering the tomb at all.

Likewise, the game instructs you to do certain things that would result in you joining a faction.

If "an NPC told me to do it" constitutes the game instructing me, then it also "instructs" me to join both factions in the civil war, help Madenach bust out of jail, and kill Paarthunax. Are those "canon" too?

[Rater202]

And what is the "incentive" to do that? Does it unlock more special powers, more interesting dialogue, does it make it a whit easier to defeat Alduin or anyone else for that matter? No, no, and no.

There isn't even a Steam achievement for it. In short, there's not a hint of evidence that the idea ever crossed anyone's mind.

It's literally the selling point and main gimmick of the game.

Point of fact, it's perfectly possible to get to that wall without entering the tomb at all.

According to the wiki, only by exploiting the game's janky horse physics.

Obviously, exploits like that don't count.

Beyond that, there are two examples for each faction. You can't get a word of Firebreath until you do the quest that establishes that the companions are werewolves, for example. The dungeon is locked.

If "an NPC told me to do it" constitutes the game instructing me, then it also "instructs" me to join both factions in the civil war, help Madenach bust out of jail, and kill Paarthunax. Are those "canon" too?

All of those options are presented as binary choices: The game instructs you to either do one thing or do something else and you have to do one or the other in order to complete a certain quest(line)

[Lurkmoar]

There's also Animal Allegiance at Ysgramor's Tomb. Which you can't open without Wuuthrad. Which you can't get without advancing the Companion's quest line.

Though you might be able to horse climb up to the peak...

[Fyraltari]

@Frytaltyr:

Okay, that's a new one. People usually go with Fryaltari, but you, you shoot for the moon.
F-y-r-a-l-t-a-r-i.

Have you ever done the Dark Brotherhood before or during the main quet? Becuase the Dark Brotherhood sends you to the Ragged Flagon twice, and I don't remember if that lets you bypass talking to Brynjolf for the main quest.

I can't honestly say (hell, I'm not sure I even finished the DB quest) but I usually do the main quest before doing the factions. Then again it's also possible I investigated the crezpy huanted house and ended up doing the DB quest by accident.

[Taevyr]

Getting to the ragged flagon doesn't require anything, you just need to go through the riften sewers system. It's only the guild base hidden behind that closet that requires being a full guild member.

So whether it's in service of the DB, looking for Esbjern, or simply discovering a random bar that seems to cater to sewer explorers (which is how I found it), no need to do anything thief-guild-related to get there. You can literally just go straight to Riften from Helgen, go through the sewers, and ask Vekel for a drink while the entire bar gives you the stink eye for not having the slightest idea what you just walked into.

As for Esbjern, I never had to join the guild to find him. I remember talking to Brynjolf, but I think you can persuade him to give you the info without doing his quest.

EDIT: UESP also seems to indicate you can persuade Brynjolf to give you the info without doing the quest: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:A_Cornered_Rat

[Grim Portent]

As I recall the DB doesn't let you bypass asking about Esbern, the only relevant thieves guild member to the DB is Delvin and Delvin doesn't help you find Esbern, just Brynjolf and Vekel.

The only real advantage to going after completing the DB quests that I recall is that you will already have dealt with Dirge's insecurities on a prior trip and won't have to deal with him confronting you.

[Triaxx]

You can rock hop up to Ysgramors wall without a horse. Don't know what the wiki's on about. And you can get to firebreath before ever visiting Whiterun. It's in a necromancer cave on the west end of the mountains Bleakfall Barrow is in.

[Grim Portent]

You can rock hop up to Ysgramors wall without a horse. Don't know what the wiki's on about. And you can get to firebreath before ever visiting Whiterun. It's in a necromancer cave on the west end of the mountains Bleakfall Barrow is in.

One of the words is in Dustman's Cairn, which you only access by doing Proving Honor for the Companions.

BTW, does anyone else find it weird that Unrelenting Force is the shout they decided to use as the iconic one for the Dragonborn rather than Firebreath? Firebreath just feels like a much more obvious choice to me.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

BTW, does anyone else find it weird that Unrelenting Force is the shout they decided to use as the iconic one for the Dragonborn rather than Firebreath? Firebreath just feels like a much more obvious choice to me.

Maybe Firebreath was considered too generic? Plus there have been fire-based Destruction spells for multiple games, but I can’t think of anything comparable to Unrelenting Force showing up before.

[Keltest]

Maybe Firebreath was considered too generic? Plus there have been fire-based Destruction spells for multiple games, but I can’t think of anything comparable to Unrelenting Force showing up before.

It may just be that UF was considered universally useful, while fire breath is just an extra source of damage.

[Triaxx]

One of the words is in Dustman's Cairn, which you only access by doing Proving Honor for the Companions.

BTW, does anyone else find it weird that Unrelenting Force is the shout they decided to use as the iconic one for the Dragonborn rather than Firebreath? Firebreath just feels like a much more obvious choice to me.

And the other requires main quest advancement. Unfortunately even with all three words, past level 10 it fails to reliably kill anything.

UF is the Iconic shout. It's the first one you get, the first one you use, and until you find another dragon, it's the only one you have access to.

[Fyraltari]

One of the words is in Dustman's Cairn, which you only access by doing Proving Honor for the Companions.

BTW, does anyone else find it weird that Unrelenting Force is the shout they decided to use as the iconic one for the Dragonborn rather than Firebreath? Firebreath just feels like a much more obvious choice to me.

Besides what was already said about firebreathing being kinda generic, I think there's a bit of showcasing the ragdoll engine. Plus the power is called "the Voice" and Unrelenting Force is the shout that requires the least explanation: your voice is really, really loud. It's also reminiscent of a lot of the lore about the Thu'um such as Talos shouting down the gates of Old Hroldan or Wulfarth having to be sworn into office by writing because his voice was so darn loud.

In fact, and I have basically nothing to support this, I think in older lore the Thu'um was less "language of magic" and more "airbending". The tongues shouted the air with specific force and "shapes" as to push armies around, shred a fool to pieces or move clouds around, not conjure up fire or see auras.

[veti]

It's literally the selling point and main gimmick of the game.

Err... where? Show me the ad, or trailer, or heck even a third-party review, that talks about mastering all the Shouts.

According to the wiki, only by exploiting the game's janky horse physics.

That would be incorrect. Go try it yourself. It's not an exploit, if Arngeir has pointed you to the place then you can just - go there. It doesn't even take any tricky parkour.

All of those options are presented as binary choices: The game instructs you to either do one thing or do something else and you have to do one or the other in order to complete a certain quest(line)

When you wake up in Astrid's lonely shack, she tells you to kill one of the three stooges behind you. Your journal tells you to kill one of the three stooges behind you. There is nothing to suggest you have any other option than to kill one of the three stooges behind you. And yet... people very quickly worked out they did have another option, and took it. So easily, in fact, that you yourself have adopted the alternative resolution as an acceptable version of this weird concept you call "canon".

Likewise with Madenach. There's no suggestion, by NPC or journal, that there is any other viable course of action than helping him. (I mean, sure you can just randomly attack anyone you like. That's always an option. But it's not presented as one, you certainly can't say "the game told me to do this".)

[Rynjin]

Err... where? Show me the ad, or trailer, or heck even a third-party review, that talks about mastering all the Shouts.

Don't be dense. The marketing doesn't literally need to say "Master over 20 Shouts!" for it to be part of the main pull of the game. There are two main "hype" moments set up in the initial trailer, the payoff for the opening narration, followed by the dragon breathing fire and Dragonborn retaliating with Fus Ro Dah, and absorbing the dragon's soul at the end.

The main quest REQUIRES you to learn several Dragon Shouts, and one of the main faction you are also REQUIRED to deal with serves exactly one purpose: getting you more Shouts.

Shouts are the only true new mechanic in the game.

Shouts replace at least one classic spell (Aura Sense) and introduce new mechanics you cannot otherwise interact with (like Slow Time).

A Shout is literally the Maguffin you need to defeat Alduin.

Shouts are literally the thing that makes you, the Dragonborn, the main character, special. They are the glue by which all the rest of the plot revolves, from Ulfric slaying the High King with his voice that kicks things off all the way down to the final battle.

Also, contrary to your assertion, there IS a Steam achievement for it: Thu'um Master, for learning 20 Shouts. That is all of the ones available in the base game.

[Anteros]

Don't be dense. The marketing doesn't literally need to say "Master over 20 Shouts!" for it to be part of the main pull of the game. There are two main "hype" moments set up in the initial trailer, the payoff for the opening narration, followed by the dragon breathing fire and Dragonborn retaliating with Fus Ro Dah, and absorbing the dragon's soul at the end.

The main quest REQUIRES you to learn several Dragon Shouts, and one of the main faction you are also REQUIRED to deal with serves exactly one purpose: getting you more Shouts.

Shouts are the only true new mechanic in the game.

Shouts replace at least one classic spell (Aura Sense) and introduce new mechanics you cannot otherwise interact with (like Slow Time).

A Shout is literally the Maguffin you need to defeat Alduin.

Shouts are literally the thing that makes you, the Dragonborn, the main character, special. They are the glue by which all the rest of the plot revolves, from Ulfric slaying the High King with his voice that kicks things off all the way down to the final battle.

Also, contrary to your assertion, there IS a Steam achievement for it: Thu'um Master, for learning 20 Shouts. That is all of the ones available in the base game.

If we're assuming canon from Steam achievements I think we're gonna have a bad time.

Regardless, I certainly never felt any drive to gather every single shout. Nor did the game push me to do so at all. The idea that the Dragonborn gathers them all is any more canon that anything else you can do is silly.

[veti]

Don't be dense. The marketing doesn't literally need to say "Master over 20 Shouts!" for it to be part of the main pull of the game. There are two main "hype" moments set up in the initial trailer, the payoff for the opening narration, followed by the dragon breathing fire and Dragonborn retaliating with Fus Ro Dah, and absorbing the dragon's soul at the end.

The main quest REQUIRES you to learn several Dragon Shouts, and one of the main faction you are also REQUIRED to deal with serves exactly one purpose: getting you more Shouts.

Also, contrary to your assertion, there IS a Steam achievement for it: Thu'um Master, for learning 20 Shouts. That is all of the ones available in the base game.

Yes, the main quest requires you to learn several shouts - and those ones, it feeds to you one by one. You never need go near another dragon wall after Bleak Falls Barrow. (Well, except Paarthunax's one at the TOTW.)

"Thu'um Master" requires you to unlock at least one word of each of 20 different shouts. It doesn't require you to learn, much less unlock, all of them. You can quite easily do that without any of the quest-locked dragon walls.

(According to Steam, 17.8% of players earned that achievement in Oldrim, but only 7.9% have done it in SE. Interesting disparity there, I wonder what drives it? It's clear that a significant number of people got SE but never played it, I'm guessing because they qualified for the free upgrade from Oldrim but never bothered to install it, but there seems to be more to it than that.)

[Rynjin]

(According to Steam, 17.8% of players earned that achievement in Oldrim, but only 7.9% have done it in SE. Interesting disparity there, I wonder what drives it? It's clear that a significant number of people got SE but never played it, I'm guessing because they qualified for the free upgrade from Oldrim but never bothered to install it, but there seems to be more to it than that.)

I imagine it's because most people who played SE are "hardcore" Skyrim players. The problem with Shouts in general are that they are both shoved in your face at every turn if you mess with the main quest or any of the faction quests (and are treated as the "main reward" of quite a few dungeons) and also mostly worthless, especially with magic mods that often move core functionality of Shouts to spells, which actually have scaling so they can be useful.

[Vinyadan]

I don't think we can yet tell what's canon for Skyrim's character. We don't have any external sources saying what he did or he didn't. There are a few binary choices (the Dark Brotherhood, the Civil War, the Forsworn, those Redguards), and it all may well end with a Dragon Break.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

(According to Steam, 17.8% of players earned that achievement in Oldrim, but only 7.9% have done it in SE. Interesting disparity there, I wonder what drives it? It's clear that a significant number of people got SE but never played it, I'm guessing because they qualified for the free upgrade from Oldrim but never bothered to install it, but there seems to be more to it than that.)

Might just be mods - that would disable achievements, and most of the people with SE probably have at least a few favorites they don’t want to play without, having picked them up from vanilla Skyrim.

[Eldonauran]

Might just be mods - that would disable achievements, and most of the people with SE probably have at least a few favorites they don’t want to play without, having picked them up from vanilla Skyrim.

It is certainly the explanation for me. I have no interest in playing vanilla Skyrim.

[veti]

Might just be mods - that would disable achievements, and most of the people with SE probably have at least a few favorites they don’t want to play without, having picked them up from vanilla Skyrim.

There is a plugin to re-enable achievements with mods, but I guess many people probably don't bother.

Good thought. Perhaps a lot of the Oldrim achievements were clocked up in the first couple of months after release, before mods were a thing. There was no such grace period for SE.

Dammit, now I have to look down the entire list and calculate ratios and whatnot, and Steam don't provide the data in a format I can handily download for a spreadsheet. This is going to take hours.

[Keltest]

It is certainly the explanation for me. I have no interest in playing vanilla Skyrim.

Ditto. First thing i did when the new version came out was track down as many of my old mods as i could.

RIP space core, by the way.