Simple RAW for 5e V: The Disadvantage Strikes Back

[HoboKnight]

Q214

PC wants to cast Spike growth and place it 40 ft from him on the ground.

Case A: entire area is flooded by fog. Can he do it?

Case B: Target point is obstructed by a thick hedge. Can he do it?

Case C: Target point is obstructed by a concrete wall. Can he do it?

Also, I'd really appreciate some rule quotes if there are any types of obscurement/total cover, that prevents PC from placing mentioned spell upon a point he desires?

tldr.: my players are placing spike growth through the hedges and bushes and I find it... a bit fishy.

thanks!

[Millstone85]

A213 Yes, I believe that you are correct.

A214

tldr.: my players are placing spike growth through the hedges and bushes and I find it... a bit fishy.

If you allow me this personal preface, I find the entire concept of "cover" to be fishy in the context of spellcasting.

If we were talking about an arrow loosed from a bow, then a stone wall would provide cover, while a thin paper wall would not. As for hedges and bushes, that would be a DM call.

But what exactly is travelling from the caster of spike growth to the area of ground that suddenly grows spikes? Is it the seven sharp thorns used as material components, assuming you haven't replaced them with a focus? Is it a wave of pure magic? How do we know what does or doesn't physically stop that?

End of rant.

Also, I'd really appreciate some rule quotes if there are any types of obscurement/total cover, that prevents PC from placing mentioned spell upon a point he desires?

I think the most relevant quote is from the PHB p204, regarding spellcasting and targets: "To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover."

Alas, it is immediately followed by a confusing sentence: "lf you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction."

Now, according to an old and still un-SAC-ed tweet of Crawford: "The clear-path rule is about there being a path clear of total cover. It's not about visibility."

Case A: entire area is flooded by fog. Can he do it?

Fog does not provide cover, only obscurement. And spike growth itself does not say anything about visibility. So yes, he can do it.

Case B: Target point is obstructed by a thick hedge. Can he do it?

It depends. Does that hedge provide total cover? If yes, then he can't do it.

Case C: Target point is obstructed by a concrete wall. Can he do it?

Assuming we aren't at a corner, a concrete wall is typically considered to provide total cover. So no, he can't do it.

[John Cribati]

Q215

So I used Heat Metal on the boss’s breastplate in session last night, and it started a whole trial of stuff, due to ambiguous wording.

Any creature in physical contact with the object takes 2d8 fire damage when you cast the spell. Until the spell ends, you can use a bonus action on each of your subsequent turns to cause this damage again.

If a creature is holding or wearing the object and takes the damage from it, the creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or drop the object if it can. If it doesn't drop the object, it has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks until the start of your next turn.

So first of all, does this mean that the creature can drop the object (as a reaction) and not have to make the saving throw in the first place?

Second, given that the boss cannot immediately drop their breastplate, they just automatically eat the disadvantage? Because the sentence states that disadvantage is a result of not dropping the object, as opposed to failing the Saving Throw.

And finally, since I can hurt them every turn for a minute (given successful concentration), do I just force disadvantage onto the boss every turn? Or does it only apply to the initial damage?

[Hairfish]

Normally, dropping an object is a free action a creature can perform on its turn; there is no general rule allowing the dropping of objects as a reaction*. The creature does not gain any special ability to drop the object other than under the specific circumstance detailed in the spell description, so it cannot drop the object to avoid damage.

While the creature is in contact with the object, it has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks if it took damage from the spell on the caster's most recent turn (either the spell was just cast, or concentration was maintained and the caster's bonus action consumed). This is independent of the CON save.

Making the CON save just allows the creature to hold on to the object, if it is droppable. The CON save must be rerolled every time the spell deals damage to the creature. If the creature wishes to drop the object to avoid the disadvantage or further damage, it may do so normally, as a free action on its turn.

Failing the CON save forces the creature to drop the object right then as an effect of the spell, if it is droppable. This does not consume a reaction.

The creature does not gain any additional recourse to avoid the damage or disadvantage from the spell if the item is not currently droppable.

* Technically, the creature could use its action to Ready a response to drop a droppable object when the trigger condition is met.

[OrbanSirgen]

Q216. Just for clarification, a ghostwise halfling's Silent Speech ability is only one-way communication, and the recipient can't reply unless they have their own form of telepathy, correct?

[Hairfish]

Q216. Just for clarification, a ghostwise halfling's Silent Speech ability is only one-way communication, and the recipient can't reply unless they have their own form of telepathy, correct?

A216. Correct. For telepathy-like abilities, especially ones available at very low levels with unlimited use, don't assume two-way communication if the ability doesn't say anything about it.

[quindraco]

A215

So first of all, does this mean that the creature can drop the object (as a reaction) and not have to make the saving throw in the first place?

Second, given that the boss cannot immediately drop their breastplate, they just automatically eat the disadvantage? Because the sentence states that disadvantage is a result of not dropping the object, as opposed to failing the Saving Throw.

And finally, since I can hurt them every turn for a minute (given successful concentration), do I just force disadvantage onto the boss every turn? Or does it only apply to the initial damage?

1. No.
2. GM ruling required: the RAW could be interpreted to mean that failing the save and not dropping it leads to disadvantage, or it could be interpreted to mean that not dropping it leads to disadvantage. I would interpret it to mean the former, as otherwise this spell rewards you for failing the save.
3. The save and disadvantage rule(s) apply/applies every time you damage them again.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Q217 Shapechange says that "You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait." I understand this to mean that you can't transform into, for e.g., a giant that has 10 levels in Wizard. But what if the average example of that creature, i.e. the one listed in the Monster Manual, has Spellcasting? An Androsphinx, for example? Is it a valid form for Shapechange? Can you use its Spellcasting trait?

[Hairfish]

A215

1. GM ruling required: the RAW could be interpreted to mean that failing the save and not dropping it leads to disadvantage, or it could be interpreted to mean that not dropping it leads to disadvantage. I would interpret it to mean the former, as otherwise this spell rewards you for failing the save.

The reward for making the save is that you can, if you choose to do so, continue to use the droppable object (with disadvantage) instead of dropping it.

[Hairfish]

Q217 Shapechange says that "You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait." I understand this to mean that you can't transform into, for e.g., a giant that has 10 levels in Wizard. But what if the average example of that creature, i.e. the one listed in the Monster Manual, has Spellcasting? An Androsphinx, for example? Is it a valid form for Shapechange? Can you use its Spellcasting trait?

A217. You become an Androsphinx but don't get its Spellcasting trait.

[Cicciograna]

Q218 The rules say that:

You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration.

Now, Mind spike seems to have some sort of concentration rider. You inflict damage, and then if the target has failed its ST, you can keep concentration to know its location.
Can you actually forgo concentration for this second effect, thus keeping concentration on whatever spell you were concentrating in the beginning?
Example: let's say that my Wizard is concentrating on Haste. He casts Mind spike to deal damage to an opponent, but he doesn't want to lose the concentration on Haste, so he simply forgos the "know your target location" section of Mind spike.
Would this be possible? Or is the concentration for Mind spike an integral part of the spell itself?

[Millstone85]

A218 The concentration is part of the spell's duration (i.e. "Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour") so I believe that it does indeed conflict with maintaining concentration on a previous spell.

[Hairfish]

A218. RAW, you're casting a spell that requires concentration. It's the casting of the spell that breaks existing concentration, even if the target saves or you choose to immediately drop it.

As a DM? I'd probably allow it.

[da newt]

Q219

Can you dispel the smoke from an ever smoking bottle?

More - once opened the smoke from an eversmoking bottle lingers for 10 minutes (unless there is wind) - other than creating wind, is there a good way to undo the heavy obscurement? It's not a spell ...

[Hairfish]

A219. You've answered your own question. Neither the smoke nor the bottle are a spell, so Dispel Magic doesn't do anything.

[Stabbey]

Q220

The Light cantrip says that it casts bright light in a 20-foot radius, and dim light in a further 20-foot radius. It also says that completely covering the object it is cast upon with something opaque blocks the light.

What happens if the object which Light is cast upon is only partially covered?

For instance, I cast Light onto a twig, and put the twig inside a metal flask or opaque glass bottle, so that the only opening is the mouth of the container. Have I created an arcane flashlight, which directs the light in a narrow cone emerging from the container mouth, or is it still bright light in a complete sphere, as if I had cast the spell on the outside of the container?

[LtPowers]

A220

RAW, it's the latter, as unintuitive as that may be. It does say "Completely covering", after all.

But that would also imply that the light doesn't cast shadows and isn't blocked by walls or people or anything else.


Powers &8^]

[Eriol]

A220

RAW, it's the latter, as unintuitive as that may be. It does say "Completely covering", after all.

But that would also imply that the light doesn't cast shadows and isn't blocked by walls or people or anything else.


Powers &8^]

May be true, not sure, as it doesn't say "spreads around corners" and such like some other spells do. So RAW is... maybe? Really not sure. It could be "everywhere" until that last sliver of not-covered, and then it's zero, or it could be an arcane flashlight. I'm not certain on RAW here.

[LtPowers]

May be true, not sure, as it doesn't say "spreads around corners" and such like some other spells do. So RAW is... maybe? Really not sure. It could be "everywhere" until that last sliver of not-covered, and then it's zero, or it could be an arcane flashlight. I'm not certain on RAW here.

R220 "Spreads around corners" is different yet: that implies (to me at least) you count distance along the path the effect takes rather than a direct line between two points.


Powers &8^]

[furby076]

Q221

Does Detect Magic allow someone to bypass a spell like Invisibility, since the spell itself radiates magic? Meaning, if creature X is invisible, and a Mage casts detect magic, then the mage see's the magical aura of invisibility which lets the mage know where to attack

[Millstone85]

A221 No. They would not have precised "visible creature or object" if that were the case.

[No brains]

Re 221
Detect Magic would allow the caster to sense a magical aura somewhere within 30 feet of them. If the caster tried to use their action to see an aura, none would be visible.

Detect magic doesn't allow you to pinpoint an invisible creature, but with clever movement, you could narrow down which square one occupies based on when you do or don't sense magic within 30 feet of you.

[CapnWildefyr]

A220

RAW, it's the latter, as unintuitive as that may be. It does say "Completely covering", after all.

But that would also imply that the light doesn't cast shadows and isn't blocked by walls or people or anything else.

R220: FWIW, just because the spell description does not mention partial occlusion doesn't mean it can't exist. Magically created light is still light, and light travels in a straight line and can be blocked. You can make a flashlight. You can cast it into a bullseye lantern and it works. (In your scenario, I could cast light on one side of a wall and illuminate the other side of the wall, which is obviously not the intent, otherwise the light could not be blocked at all.)

[LtPowers]

R220: FWIW, just because the spell description does not mention partial occlusion doesn't mean it can't exist. Magically created light is still light, and light travels in a straight line and can be blocked. You can make a flashlight. You can cast it into a bullseye lantern and it works. (In your scenario, I could cast light on one side of a wall and illuminate the other side of the wall, which is obviously not the intent, otherwise the light could not be blocked at all.)

R220: Well this is RAW and not RAI. Spells do exactly what they say they do, no more, no less. And the spell makes a provision for completely covering the object and no provision for partial occlusion.

Obviously the result is unintuitive and probably not as intended. But I think interpreting it otherwise is bringing an assumption into the plain text.


Powers &8^]

[Arial Black]

R220: Well this is RAW and not RAI. Spells do exactly what they say they do, no more, no less. And the spell makes a provision for completely covering the object and no provision for partial occlusion.

Obviously the result is unintuitive and probably not as intended. But I think interpreting it otherwise is bringing an assumption into the plain text.


Powers &8^]

Disagree. That text about 'completely' covering the object remains true for both interpretations. It's just letting us know that the light produced behaves like normal light and CANNOT pass through opaque barriers.

[Segev]

It is also worth noting that "completely covered" is a literal matter of perspective. A light source on the other side of an opaque wall is completely covered from the perspective of those on this side, but not to those standing on the other side nor in a doorway in the wall.

[Carpe Gonzo]

Q 222: Can Locate Object be used to find the closest lead container within 1000 ft. of the caster or would the side of the lead container closest to the caster block the spell from identifying and locating the whole container somehow?

[NecessaryWeevil]

A222: Yes it can. The lead doesn't block the path to the object, it is the object. And once you've found part of an intact object, you've found the object.

This spell can't locate an object if any thickness of lead, even a thin sheet, blocks a direct path between you and the object.

[CascadeDiver]

Q223

Can a readied action happen on your same turn?

Example: Would it be possible to ready an action "if I begin to fall", then bonus action Misty Step to a space in mid air, and then as you begin to fall use your readied action?

Keeping in mind that you cannot take an action while falling <500' as falling is instantaneous. Though a readied action with the trigger of "if I begin to fall" would be permitted. (I may be mistaken)

[Narbaculus]

A223: Yes, there is nothing that prevents your using a reaction on your turn. If you Ready an action and declare a trigger, which then occurs before your turn ends, you can absolutely react as you would normally. However, I might ask why you're doing this at all if you know beforehand that the trigger will be occurring on your turn, during which you are free to act normally at any time. With the specific example you stated, you could use your bonus action to Misty Step into the air, then use your action immediately, before you start to fall, without needing to use your reaction.