Dread Necromancer lich transformation

[Biggus]

Starting a new thread to avoid derailing this one any further. This post is a direct copy of my last one there.

The part where it doesn't say "applies the Lich Template"

"Lich" is an acquired template

The definition of lich, in the primary source, is that it's a template. So by RAW, you do gain the lich template.

A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery."

These are the mechanics of the Lich transformation Class feature. Your type changes to undead, with no extra special abilities, and you get a magic item called a Phylactery... But not a Lich's Phylactery ability, so the item does absolutely nothing.

Why give you a phylactery if it doesn't do anything? How many other class features can you name which do literally nothing by intent? The very few I've heard of are clearly errors.

And, again, there is a post from a Wizards Staff Member on the now-defunct Wizards forums that spells out that "you become Undead but that's it" is the intended reading of the class feature.

That might have been that particular staff member's understanding of how it should be read, it might not have been anyone else's. A message board post is even less official than the FAQ, which has enough errors in it that I've lost count of the number of times I've read someone say "FAQ is not RAW".

Even in-universe, A Dry Lich, a Lich, and a Dracolich are not the same template, so "Lich" doesn't refer specifically to the Lich Template.

But it doesn't say you become a Dry Lich or a Dracolich, those are different things. It says you become a Lich. The word "lich" on its own refers only to that specific template, in rules terms. So unless you can show me a piece of rules text which says that "lich" is used as a general term for all lich templates, this means nothing.

No, it's the name of a creature and when you gain the template it references the page number, which Dread Necro doesn't.

Can you show me a piece of rules text that says that when you gain a template, it must reference the page number, or use the words "you gain the template"?

[hamishspence]

20th level Dread Necromancers use a phylactery to become a lich. The 19th level class feature says so:

"at 19th level, the dread necromancer gains Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat. This helps her prepare the phylactery required to become a lich".


I think the RAI at least is pretty unambiguous.

[Segev]

It looks to me like the ambiguity arises because it gives some specifics of the transformation in the ability that are essentially repetitive. However, the RAW state that he "becomes a lich," and then goes on to list some of the things that becoming a lich already entails. If you read it straight-forwardly, the stuff about becoming undead, etc., is redundant, not limiting. You become a lich. Period. No restriction on that is listed. This includes the +4 LA, so technically a level 20 dread necromancer is immediately an ECL 24 character, and has a lot of XP to earn before leveling up to epic. (On the other hand, he is now epic, and qualifies for epic feats at 20th level, which is interesting.)

[hamishspence]

You become a lich. Period. No restriction on that is listed. This includes the +4 LA, so technically a level 20 dread necromancer is immediately an ECL 24 character, and has a lot of XP to earn before leveling up to epic.

Personally I wouldn't impose the LA.

I see it as exactly like the Dragon Disciple - you gain weaker forms of the template's abilities over many levels, until you finally gain the complete template. But because those abilities have already been parcelled out over time, and are built into the prestige class's improvement, the creature's CR is much lower, and the increase in power with the last level, is much smaller than the increase in power that a 20th level sorcerer who used a ritual to gain the template, would have. With the ritual, the sorcerer would effectively gain 3 levels of character power all at once.


A human 10th level sorcerer/10th level Dragon Disciple is a CR 20 NPC, not CR 22, and as a PC, is a 20th level character, not a 23rd level character.


In the same way, I would treat a human 20th level Dread Necromancer NPC as CR 20, not CR 22, and as a PC is a 20th level character, not a 24th level character.


"Template classes" just work like that, IMO.

[Segev]

Personally I wouldn't impose the LA.

I see it as exactly like the Dragon Disciple - you gain weaker forms of the template's abilities over many levels, until you finally gain the complete template. But because those abilities have already been parcelled out over time, and are built into the prestige class's improvement, the creature's CR is much lower, and the increase in power with the last level, is much smaller than the increase in power that a 20th level sorcerer who used a ritual to gain the template, would have. With the ritual, the sorcerer would effectively gain 3 levels of character power all at once.


A human 10th level sorcerer/10th level Dragon Disciple is a CR 20 NPC, not CR 22, and as a PC, is a 20th level character, not a 23rd level character.


In the same way, I would treat a human 20th level Dread Necromancer NPC as CR 20, not CR 22, and as a PC is a 20th level character, not a 24th level character.


"Template classes" just work like that, IMO.

I'd need to parse it finely to check, so I'll ask in case somebody's already done it: does the Dread Necromancer, by level 20, have everything a lich does except the stuff that is expressly listed after the sentence, "When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich?"

[Falontani]

I'd need to parse it finely to check, so I'll ask in case somebody's already done it: does the Dread Necromancer, by level 20, have everything a lich does except the stuff that is expressly listed after the sentence, "When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich?"

no, a lich has a paralyzing touch which is permanent, and a lich has several ability scores higher than the dread necromancer

[Segev]

no, a lich has a paralyzing touch which is permanent, and a lich has several ability scores higher than the dread necromancer

In that case, while I can see the similarity to Dragon Disciple, I don't think we can read it as saying that it doesn't apply the LA (and all the rest of the template). If it did not apply the LA, it would say so. (Doesn't Dragon Disciple say the LA doesn't get applied? Or am I misremembering?)

[GrayDeath]

20th level Dread Necromancers use a phylactery to become a lich. The 19th level class feature says so:

"at 19th level, the dread necromancer gains Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat. This helps her prepare the phylactery required to become a lich".


I think the RAI at least is pretty unambiguous.

Totally agreed.

Sadly, the book is one of the typical cases of "great Content in principal, horrible editing", like ToB.

It looks to me like the ambiguity arises because it gives some specifics of the transformation in the ability that are essentially repetitive. However, the RAW state that he "becomes a lich," and then goes on to list some of the things that becoming a lich already entails. If you read it straight-forwardly, the stuff about becoming undead, etc., is redundant, not limiting. You become a lich. Period. No restriction on that is listed. This includes the +4 LA, so technically a level 20 dread necromancer is immediately an ECL 24 character, and has a lot of XP to earn before leveling up to epic. (On the other hand, he is now epic, and qualifies for epic feats at 20th level, which is interesting.)

Alsoa greed. But that is a problem many of the Dread Necromancer featrurees have.

I always assumed it was because it was written by an Intern/new Designer/guy normally not Doing 3.5 Stuff. But again, thats RAI arguing, with all that entails.

Personally I wouldn't impose the LA.

I see it as exactly like the Dragon Disciple - you gain weaker forms of the template's abilities over many levels, until you finally gain the complete template. But because those abilities have already been parcelled out over time, and are built into the prestige class's improvement, the creature's CR is much lower, and the increase in power with the last level, is much smaller than the increase in power that a 20th level sorcerer who used a ritual to gain the template, would have. With the ritual, the sorcerer would effectively gain 3 levels of character power all at once.

A human 10th level sorcerer/10th level Dragon Disciple is a CR 20 NPC, not CR 22, and as a PC, is a 20th level character, not a 23rd level character.

In the same way, I would treat a human 20th level Dread Necromancer NPC as CR 20, not CR 22, and as a PC is a 20th level character, not a 24th level character.

"Template classes" just work like that, IMO.

Agreed on principle. Now if the Teams Wizard made design their many many classes had just been able and willing to use clear, concise and inherently interchangeable Language only....




My take, for a RAW Argument:

The Class givey ou the Ability to Craft a Phylactery at Level 19.

Phylacteries have clear details written in their primary source, including that they are used to attain the Lich template.
It doesntt say anywhere that this Phylactery is in any way shape or form different.

The Next Level you "transform into a Lich". Implied that this is done using your phylactery, after all you just got it a level earlier, but sadly not clear.

Now there are the infamous "detailed descriptions on becoming AN undead" with no mentioning of the Lich tempalte.

I see this as interpretable in 2 ways that work mechanically/seem to match the Intent..

1.: You have already accumulated most (in aprt differently worded, but again, editing) of a Lichs abilities/modifications. If they now applied the Template, this would for example give you 2 instances of the same/a similar touch attack, or Fortification,e tc.

So they ment the whole class like the Dragon Disciple, getting you the template piece by piece, and at Level 20 only Udneath, with the Phylactery working as usual, was left.
You are now a type of Lich, without any LA added, but also without Stat boosts.

This makes sense regarding similar "Template in X Levels" Classes (after all, the Dragon Disciple doesnt mention LA either, and given if it applied it would make the class incredibly bad evens eeing you would still apply even more Stat boosts), but a point against it is that there are no stat boosts during the class.


2.: At reaching the level, you simply apply the Lich template.

This includes the terrible LA +4, but thena gain, msot games would not continue anyway.

Enjoy retiring for eternity.

[Blackhawk748]

Starting a new thread to avoid derailing
Can you show me a piece of rules text that says that when you gain a template, it must reference the page number, or use the words "you gain the template"?

No, but every other PrC that gives you a template calls it out directly. The capstone ability for DN just turns you into an undead. That is all it does. Everything else is just fluff text.

I agree this is stupid, but by RAW, that's what it does.

I think the RAI at least is pretty unambiguous.

I don't disagree, but strict RAW it doesn't. Honestly I don't think a DM should deny this to a player, but dear lord did this book need a proper editor.

[Segev]

No, but every other PrC that gives you a template calls it out directly. The capstone ability for DN just turns you into an undead. That is all it does. Everything else is just fluff text.

I agree this is stupid, but by RAW, that's what it does.



I don't disagree, but strict RAW it doesn't. Honestly I don't think a DM should deny this to a player, but dear lord did this book need a proper editor.

Sounds like there's agreement on how it probably should be run, or at lesat enough for a DM to make a reasonable call.

I will stand by my statmenet that the RAW state you become a lich, and that the following sentences are redundant, not limiting. A lich is a specific thing in D&D. It may not say "apply the template," but you literally become a lich by applying the template, so it's the same thing.

But at this point we're arguing semantics, I think.

[Blackhawk748]

Sounds like there's agreement on how it probably should be run, or at lesat enough for a DM to make a reasonable call.

I will stand by my statmenet that the RAW state you become a lich, and that the following sentences are redundant, not limiting. A lich is a specific thing in D&D. It may not say "apply the template," but you literally become a lich by applying the template, so it's the same thing.

But at this point we're arguing semantics, I think.

The issue is, it goes on to say what that entails going so far as to actually give you the page in the Monster Manual for Undead and telling you that you lose your Constitution score, which if you got the Lich template it wouldn't do because the Lich template does that. Its incredibly weird.

I agree that it should give you the template, but it doesn't in its RAW form, and for all we know this was the designers intent. I, and all of us in this thread, agree that's stupid, but it could very well be the case.

[Falontani]

The issue is, it goes on to say what that entails going so far as to actually give you the page in the Monster Manual for Undead and telling you that you lose your Constitution score, which if you got the Lich template it wouldn't do because the Lich template does that. Its incredibly weird.

I agree that it should give you the template, but it doesn't in its RAW form, and for all we know this was the designers intent. I, and all of us in this thread, agree that's stupid, but it could very well be the case.

Stating that you become something, and then listing some of the examples of things it gives is not directly saying that you only get those benefits. I agree it should have directed to the lich template itself, rather than the undead traits, but I don't think that saying some of the things you get should negate the fact that you get everything from the thing you have become. That would be like saying that polymorph saying that you changed types and then going into some of the things you got from changing types meant you didn't get everything else that comes with changing types, or all the stuff of the monster you became.

[InvisibleBison]

No, but every other PrC that gives you a template calls it out directly. The capstone ability for DN just turns you into an undead. That is all it does. Everything else is just fluff text.

I agree this is stupid, but by RAW, that's what it does.

Where in the rules is it written that there is such a thing as fluff? As far as I can tell, the idea that some text that appears to be rules is actually not rules is not actually part of the rules, but just a nigh-ubiquitous interpretation of the rules used to explain various odd parts of the rules.

[Segev]

If it said you only get the things listed after the sentence about becoming a lich, I'd agree that that's all it does. But it doesn't. The first sentence states you become a lich. The rest doesn't contradict this.

If somebody says, "I want the waffle combo, eggs over easy," does that mean they only want the eggs?