Unearthed Arcana: Subclasses Revisited

[Arkhios]

You did not, no - that's just what they've currently set it up to be, and so what I felt needs addressing. If we're agreeing there completely, cool, all good. I had thought that perhaps we'd differ there since you seemed to be in agreement with another poster who has a more positive opinion of the psi dice, but I'd still have said much the same thing either way.

I agree it shouldn't be used for psionics, but the mechanism itself (if you strip it off of its psionics flavor) is quite fun. It could work with something else. Psionics, in my opinion, is something that requires immense mental discipline and control over your thoughts. Not something that ebbs and flows erratically.

[Kane0]

The die is a neat mechanic and is worth refining, but it's current implementation doesn't fit psionics beyond maybe the wilder with its randomness, nor can it hold up the system singlehandedly.

[Segev]

I’ve said it before, but I think the idea is for this dpsi to be a core representing psionics as a wild and hard to control force. And then use mechanics that bring it under control for more focused classes.

[Justin Sane]

I’ve said it before, but I think the idea is for this dpsi to be a core representing psionics as a wild and hard to control force. And then use mechanics that bring it under control for more focused classes.

I can see that working. All other psionics have to deal with this wild, barely controllable thing, but the Psion? He's the one with the perfect control, rolling multiple dpsi and picking the one he wants.

[Chaosmancer]

I like the psi die, I like the ebb and flow of it, and I especially like that rolling low increases the die size. This is the first mechanic is 5e to make rolling a 1 suck less.

And, while it could be a wild magic thing if we took it back to the beginning of the game, it isn't. Can't be because we've already seen a few wild magic classes and unless they are rewriting the wild magic sorcerer (the most iconic wild magic class) then the psi die can't become a key feature of wild magic.

With a flavor adjustment though, they work for psionics. And I agree with Justin Sane, we could even use the mechanic in such a way that the Psion is more in control than the knight or soul knife. IT could very easily work and I hope the mechanic makes it to print.

[Zevox]

I agree it shouldn't be used for psionics, but the mechanism itself (if you strip it off of its psionics flavor) is quite fun. It could work with something else. Psionics, in my opinion, is something that requires immense mental discipline and control over your thoughts. Not something that ebbs and flows erratically.

Yep, we are in agreement on all of that then.

I’ve said it before, but I think the idea is for this dpsi to be a core representing psionics as a wild and hard to control force. And then use mechanics that bring it under control for more focused classes.

And if that is their intent, then it is very much one that I wish to discourage, as that completely changes the flavor of Psionics from what I like about it. Capturing that flavor is the most important part of adding Psionics, IMO. It's not just the Psion itself that should be a disciplined master of their mind, it's anyone with Psionics besides perhaps specifically the Wilder (or a new equivalent). I don't see a "Psi Knight" with wild and uncontrollable Psionics as being the same thing as a disciplined Psychic Warrior in full control of their abilities, any more than I'd see a class based on rough-and-tumble, barroom brawling-style unarmed combat as the same thing as a Monk.

[Kane0]

Yep, we are in agreement on all of that then.


And if that is their intent, then it is very much one that I wish to discourage, as that completely changes the flavor of Psionics from what I like about it. Capturing that flavor is the most important part of adding Psionics, IMO. It's not just the Psion itself that should be a disciplined master of their mind, it's anyone with Psionics besides perhaps specifically the Wilder (or a new equivalent). I don't see a "Psi Knight" with wild and uncontrollable Psionics as being the same thing as a disciplined Psychic Warrior in full control of their abilities, any more than I'd see a class based on rough-and-tumble, barroom brawling-style unarmed combat as the same thing as a Monk.

Agreed, and i've already stated as such in my survey.

[Segev]

I suppose we just disagree, then. I don't mind people who aren't dedicated masters of the mind, but rather have it as a talent that helps them with a different class, being more akin to wilders than psions. In fact, I kind-of appreciate it; why is the Wilder the only representative of the naturally-talented but untrained (or only self-trained) psychic? Why is EVERY class, and even people with the Wild Talent feat, a perfectly controlled master of psionic energies, except this one class?

I'm not really complaining about how PF and 3.5 did it; I like them. But if they're changing things up for 5e, I don't mind the thematic shift to psychic/psionic power being in general this hard-to-control, pulsating, wild power, and being the rare class that actually can tame it actually be something special, rather than it be a weird disability superpower to be unable to control it.

[rlc]

honestly, I don't mind they cut the onomancer wizard, I just wish they made it a bard subclass instead. I'm hoping when they say they'll explore those themes in other ways, they mean they'll still make it possible to play a truenamer. While it's not something I would play, the concept does feel missing.

Also, while the phantom rogue has some interesting abilities, I feel like flavor-wise they should have made it more of a "phantom thief" that specializes in teleportation, invisibility and etherealness

I played an onomancer in avernus and it was fun, in a quirky type of way. I used extract name like two or three times and it made for some interesting moments, and the fact that I knew bane and bless caught the cleric off guard.

[MaxieZeus]

How does this count as the "Archivist" at all? This subclass feels garbage. The Archivist was really cool. one of the few ways to actually weaponize your Knowledge checks and use them in battle and could access all the Divine Spells, meaning you could mix and match cute Domain-specific spells and even access Druid Spells if you wanted.

Why not, for the 2nd level feature, instead of half-cost on all wizard spells. You instead pay normal for wizard spells, but also have the ability to learn ANY one spell as one of your Level-Up Spells from any spell list. And it has to be of the second-maximum spell-list. And you get 1 Cantrip of your choice from any class. but only once at 2nd level. not every level.

And sure, keep the ability to create a new Tomb whenever you lose it. But since that's such a basic and flavour-oriented effect. what about You can pick 1 Knowledge Intelligence Skill (History, Arcane, Religion, or Nature) you are proficient in and gain Expertise in it. And maybe get a another Knowledge Expertise at 5th, 10th, and 15th level or something.

And then at 6th level, instead of this stupid Spell Scroll effect, which basically just gives you an extra 1st or 2nd spell slot. You could get access to the Archivist's best feature. the ability to use Knowledge Checks in battle. Maybe, as a Bonus action, you can target 1 enemy within 60 feet of you and roll a Knowledge Check related to the target's type.
Nature - Beast, Plant, Monstrosity
Arcane - Elemental, Dragon, ooze, Abberation
History - Humanoid, Construct, Giant,
Religion - Fiend, Divine, Fey, Undead,

DC is 10 + the target's number of Hit Dice. You and 3 of your allies all gain +2 to Attack and Damage Rolls if you succeed. and the Higher you rolled, the more bonuses you get. Such as learning the target's vulnerabilities, immunities, proficiencies, even abilities. You can only do this once per short rest.

You also have the ability at 6th Level to, whenever you roll an Intelligence check of any kind, you can spend a Spell Slot to give yourself a bonus to the Knowledge check equal to the spell slot spent this way. But you have to do it BEFORE you roll. and you can only spend 1 spell slot per roll.

At 10th Level, sure, you can keep the Pact of the Chain style effect. Having the ability to seek out more knowledge where you can is definitely flavouful of the archetype.

the 14th ability is also fine. just, I'm totally ok with this Living Spellbook thing. it's just, give it the stuff that made it feel like an Archivist in the first place.

[Zevox]

I suppose we just disagree, then. I don't mind people who aren't dedicated masters of the mind, but rather have it as a talent that helps them with a different class, being more akin to wilders than psions. In fact, I kind-of appreciate it; why is the Wilder the only representative of the naturally-talented but untrained (or only self-trained) psychic? Why is EVERY class, and even people with the Wild Talent feat, a perfectly controlled master of psionic energies, except this one class?

Presumably for the same reason the Wild Magic Sorcerer is the only such class among spellcasters. If I were to guess, that'd be because players generally want their characters to be in control of their cool powers, so classes that are built around the concept of not being in control of them are very much the exception, not the rule.

And hey, if they want to add more classes like that, be my guest, that's fine, and could be fun. Just don't try to tell me that they're the 5E version of something I liked that was nothing like that before.

I'm not really complaining about how PF and 3.5 did it; I like them. But if they're changing things up for 5e, I don't mind the thematic shift to psychic/psionic power being in general this hard-to-control, pulsating, wild power, and being the rare class that actually can tame it actually be something special, rather than it be a weird disability superpower to be unable to control it.

My argument, personally, is that it seems obvious that if they're looking to do a 5E Psionics, at least part of the reason for that is surely because fans of it from prior editions have been asking for a 5E version of it. They've already decided against doing a version that's closer to the mechanics from prior editions, the Mystic, which is understandable to at least some extent. But if they're going to go for a very different mechanical direction, I'd argue that at the bare minimum they need to preserve the flavor and overall style of the classes - otherwise, what's left for those of us who were looking for 5E versions of those things?

[Segev]

My argument, personally, is that it seems obvious that if they're looking to do a 5E Psionics, at least part of the reason for that is surely because fans of it from prior editions have been asking for a 5E version of it. They've already decided against doing a version that's closer to the mechanics from prior editions, the Mystic, which is understandable to at least some extent. But if they're going to go for a very different mechanical direction, I'd argue that at the bare minimum they need to preserve the flavor and overall style of the classes - otherwise, what's left for those of us who were looking for 5E versions of those things?

I tend to agree: they need to keep the feel.

For whatever reason, the die, despite being a radically different approach, doesn't break the "feel" for me the way, say, 4e making everybody into martial adepts did.

[Zevox]

I tend to agree: they need to keep the feel.

For whatever reason, the die, despite being a radically different approach, doesn't break the "feel" for me the way, say, 4e making everybody into martial adepts did.

I can't speak to the 4E comparison, since I never really looked into the mechanics of that edition (I lost interest as soon as I heard some of the things they were doing to the Forgotten Realms, which was my favorite setting at the time). But for me, the Psi Dice does break that feel, for the reasons we've already been discussing. I can see it for the Wilder, or a similar "Wild Magic" type of concept, but not for Psionics in general.

[Garfunion]

Personally I like the psi die because it’s different and fresh. We don’t need another point buy system. If you want to create a psionic class that is truly focused in the craft, they simply need to provide the class with additional ways for them to recharge the die.

Sometimes you can push your mind to far and it breaks. That is what the psi die represents to me. No matter how in control you are with your psionic power, you are forcefully changing and using the magic around you in the most unnatural way. The chance of you blooding out your nose is high.

[heavyfuel]

So, guess I'm in the minority for thinking the Phantom is strictly inferior to the Revived in every single way...

The Revived had a much cooler fluff. It wasn't trying to be super edgy like the Phantom. It was just a chill guy who remembered his past lives.

Mechanically, Bolts from the Grave were almost strictly superior to the new Wails. No uses per rest, and allowed you to ready an action for double SA.

Audience with Death was super flavorful ability that actually allowed a non-caster access to something usually unique to the Divination school.

The Tokens are cool, I guess.

Also, the Genie's Limited Wish is sooo OP. It's frankly ridiculously strong for a lv 14 ability.

[Evaar]

How does this count as the "Archivist" at all? This subclass feels garbage. The Archivist was really cool. one of the few ways to actually weaponize your Knowledge checks and use them in battle and could access all the Divine Spells, meaning you could mix and match cute Domain-specific spells and even access Druid Spells if you wanted.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but it's not the Archivist they're talking about. They're referencing the previous Artificer subclass released through Unearthed Arcana, which did not make it to publication. It did not have access to Cleric spells.

[Chaosmancer]

Personally I like the psi die because it’s different and fresh. We don’t need another point buy system. If you want to create a psionic class that is truly focused in the craft, they simply need to provide the class with additional ways for them to recharge the die.

Sometimes you can push your mind to far and it breaks. That is what the psi die represents to me. No matter how in control you are with your psionic power, you are forcefully changing and using the magic around you in the most unnatural way. The chance of you blooding out your nose is high.

This is something I've been thinking as well. Even the greatest "my mind is a weapon that I wield" characters tend to show that it is an effort to remain in control, because the mind is an unruly thing.

And, if they ended up doing a psion with the Psi die and had a mechanic like "when you roll your psi die for any reason, roll it three times and take the result you want" then it would have that feel of them manipulating an ability that is by it's nature chaotic and unruly, but that you have master over.

[Zevox]

Personally I like the psi die because it’s different and fresh.

Being different isn't a virtue in and of itself, in my view. There needs to be a reason that what's different about it is a positive thing, and I see none here, just the negatives of the radically different flavor from what I'm looking for.

[Garfunion]

Being different isn't a virtue in and of itself, in my view. There needs to be a reason that what's different about it is a positive thing, and I see none here, just the negatives of the radically different flavor from what I'm looking for.

Everyone has their own opinion. But here’s a question for you. How would you create a psionic system that isn’t your run-of-the-mill point by system?

[Zevox]

Everyone has their own opinion. But here’s a question for you. How would you create a psionic system that isn’t your run-of-the-mill point by system?

Personally, I wouldn't. I'd take the Mystic, change the name to Psion, make various balance changes to it, drop some of the subclasses (Immortal and Soulknife to be Fighter and Rogue subclasses, Wu Jen because it has nothing to do with Psionics), and make that the basis of 5e Psionics.

But I'm open to them doing something else instead - I just insist that it at least fit the flavor of what Psionics is. Thus I was fine with their previous passes at Psychic Warrior and Soulknife, but am very opposed to the "Psionic" Wizard and Sorcerer subclasses, and don't like the Psi Dice mechanic.

[animewatcha]

Once thing I wonder is how a champion feature with do with the double scimitar - appropriate feat which the name I can't remember - Wild talent set to dex ( psionic die to Initiative and damage roll ) and tower of iron will. Fighting style being interception and either GWM or Mariner.

[MaxieZeus]

I think the Mystic had potential, but its number 1 problem was just how broken and bull**** its signiture ability was. Intelligence is the lowest on average stat in the game. The Majority of monsters you fight in the game are mindless or beastial in nature, Wild Animals like Owlbears. Stupid bandits and Goblins. Maybe some basic guards with a 12 in Intelligence. but a large number of enemies with 14 or higher Intelligence? very rare and requires an entire campaign specifically tailored around it.

Not to mention, the overall damage output of the signature attack is better than the Paladin's since they have the range to avoid attacks while also pelting enemies with unblockable attacks.

IMO, the signature attack of the Mystic/Psion, should have been something like a Force-Push. a Breath Weapon that is contested by their Strength OR Intelligence save, whichever is higher. Either the body being too strong to push away, or their mind being too strong to influence. But make the force come out in a cone so that you have some flexibility in how you use it.

I think the point system works. and does a good job to blend the Psionics with the Monk, since the two have been married to each other since AD&D.

[Segev]

Monk and psion were only connected by more than a PrC option in 4e.

[HPisBS]

Monk and psion were only connected by more than a PrC option in 4e.

Very few of us know anything about 4e. It's not the most persuasive of references.


Anyway
The psi die seems like something of a mixed bag. There is something to be said for it being a new, totally unique mechanic. Rolling max or min being both good and bad is kinda cool. The feel of being an unpredictable power can also be fine... but I think it should have more reliability for players to enjoy it very much.

If they move forward with this psi die idea in the way that Segev imagines, then they'd need to include some fluff in every subclass that uses it about how it's an untrained or barely trained talent whose power fluctuates erratically.

- AND, I wholeheartedly believe that even the wildest of psychic archetypes need to have at least one fully at-will power they can always rely on. Whether that means always being able to roll a d4 for it, or just separating it from the psi die altogether, you need to be able to do something with your subclass at all times. (Otherwise, you could wind up using your subclass twice, and then being reduced to just the base class for the rest of the day, and that's just lame.)

Edit:

... IMO, the signature attack of the Mystic/Psion, should have been something like a Force-Push. a Breath Weapon that is contested by their Strength OR Intelligence save, whichever is higher. Either the body being too strong to push away, or their mind being too strong to influence. But make the force come out in a cone so that you have some flexibility in how you use it.

I think the point system works. and does a good job to blend the Psionics with the Monk, since the two have been married to each other since AD&D.

I fully agree with the bolded part. Telekinesis and telepathy are the most iconic psychic powers, and should thus be the psion's specialty. Meanwhile, a Psion's whose subclass is extra telekinesis-focused might be able to turn a normally single-target push into a cone AoE, while a Psion's telepathy-focused archetype might be able to disguise his telepathic messages as the target's own thoughts - his own internal monologue.


Psi Point- based powers would certainly be a cleaner system than the psi die. That much seems clear, at least.

[Quoz]

Probably a relatively minor thing overall, but I've been looking for efficient ways to get spike growth on a warlock for an upcoming character and here it's just added to the spell list. Very potent in the early game when combined with repelling blast, and only gets better as you get multiple attacks. A lot of other very nice features as well. Resistance to bludgeoning damage (not just from nonmagic weapons) is really useful and should come up often. No size limits that I could see on what you can bring into or carry with your vessel, so while harder to access than a bag of holding the capacity is very impressive. You could carry a boat in there if you needed to - though familiar airlines sounds more fun.

[Segev]

Very few of us know anything about 4e. It's not the most persuasive of references.

I know very little about it as well. Apparently autocorrupt on my phone mangled what I wrote, though, as what I was trying to say was more to the effect of (and I am waxing more prosaic here than before): "Before 4e, the closest psions and monks came to being linked was one PrC."

It is my understanding that this "Monks are psionic"/"Monks should have been psionic in 5e" stuff all comes from 4e, where that was the default. I know of no other source, save a PrC that let you hybridize monks and psions in 3e (and which, if used as precedent, means that wizards are also psionic, which would be grossly undesirable to me), which links monks and psionics.

That was my intended point, and I apologize for either my overtired posting or my phone auto"correcting" my words into that nonsensical gibberish.

[HPisBS]

Afraid not.

Though I can't speak for anyone else, my view that monks seem relatively similar to psionics stems primarily from all the psionic-like features that core 5e monks get. There's also the general fluff and feel of monks, chakra, chi, etc, but it's primarily from the base features.

- Stillness of Mind (shrug off mental influence)
- Tongue of the Sun and Moon ("touch the ki of other minds so that you understand all spoken languages")
- Diamond Soul (gain all mental saves, + Con)
- Empty Body (astral projection - literally your mind leaving your body for a while)

Monks are essentially about the mastery of one's own body and mind (more body than mind, but still). Psions are essentially about mastery of one's own mind. The similarities, both in the mechanics and the fluff, are right out there in the open for anyone who's willing to see them.

[sayaijin]

So, guess I'm in the minority for thinking the Phantom is strictly inferior to the Revived in every single way...

The Revived had a much cooler fluff. It wasn't trying to be super edgy like the Phantom. It was just a chill guy who remembered his past lives.

Mechanically, Bolts from the Grave were almost strictly superior to the new Wails. No uses per rest, and allowed you to ready an action for double SA.

Audience with Death was super flavorful ability that actually allowed a non-caster access to something usually unique to the Divination school.

The Tokens are cool, I guess.

I've worked out the math, and it's actually fairly balanced with other UA's if the class can start creating tokens at level 3, but the tokens are consumed to do the wails from the grave and the floating proficiency. Then the class becomes all about a trinket economy - knowing when to give up your advantage on death and con saves to get the extra half SA damage.

Bolts is always going to be stronger, but it was probably too strong at level 3.

[Millstone85]

It is my understanding that this "Monks are psionic"/"Monks should have been psionic in 5e" stuff all comes from 4e, where that was the default.

Though I can't speak for anyone else, my view that monks seem relatively similar to psionics stems primarily from all the psionic-like features that core 5e monks get.

4e was my first edition, so I can't claim that I am not influenced by it putting the monk under the psionic power source. But the 5e monk features that HPisBS listed, those do present ki as touching both the body and the mind.

I have actually come to regret my initial dislike of "the mystic" as a name for a dedicated psionic class. It sounds easier to put alongside the monk.

[Mr Adventurer]

I still think that "psionics" should be a collection of optional subclasses that apply changes to normal spellcasting e.g. always remove non-costly material components in favour of a "display" element that 3e had. Sorcerous Origin, Soulknife (Rogue: tweaked Arcane Trickster), and Psychic Warrior (Fighter: tweaked Eldritch Knight) are all that's really needed IMO. Possibly with an even more optional sidebar on converting other casting classes to psionic magic.

However, I also think it's clear that what psionics means in a game is wildly varied across different people, what their experiences, influences, preferences, and expectations are. So I wouldn't expect much agreement with my position - it's only my own.