OOTS #1203 - The Discussion Thread

[Scizor]

No, he didn't buy them for Lien, but he will gladly play a game with Lien if she gets bored enough. He will probably give her whatever handicap she wants too. And compose caligraphy and poetry while waiting for her to make her move.

O-chul never struck me as the calligraphy and poetry type - he is just a fighter with a couple levels of paladin and a very high Constitution score. His charisma isn't amazing, if I remember correctly, and his style seems to be more wisdom than art.

[danielxcutter]

O-chul never struck me as the calligraphy and poetry type - he is just a fighter with a couple levels of paladin and a very high Constitution score. His charisma isn't amazing, if I remember correctly, and his style seems to be more wisdom than art.

That makes sense, yeah... knowing Go doesn’t instantly mean “well-cultured”, same as knowing the basic rules of chess doesn’t either. Belkar is a pretty good cook but nobody considers him a man of wealth and taste.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar is a pretty good cook but nobody considers him a man of wealth and taste.

But he'd kill the tsar and his ministers while someone screamed in vain. On the other hand, given the way that he has responded to NPCs, I can't see him ever saying "Pleased to meet you!"

[Rockphed]

O-chul never struck me as the calligraphy and poetry type - he is just a fighter with a couple levels of paladin and a very high Constitution score. His charisma isn't amazing, if I remember correctly, and his style seems to be more wisdom than art.

I was more going for "he enjoys Go and is willing to let an inexperienced opponent take their time" than "O-chul is a man of wealth and taste". Also, I had just watched the Avatar episode where Sokka gets a new sword and was asked to learn caligraphy.

[Quizatzhaderac]

The singularity is at the center of the black hole, the event horizon is at its "edge". Not the same thing.

The center of a black hole is a true singularity, but there are also two false or "coordinate" singularities where time reverses (ergosphere) and gravity becomes infinite (event horizon).

[factotum]

The center of a black hole is a true singularity, but there are also two false or "coordinate" singularities where time reverses (ergosphere) and gravity becomes infinite (event horizon).

I don't know about the first one, but the event horizon is most definitely *not* where gravity becomes infinite--that's the singularity. The event horizon is where gravity becomes strong enough for light to not escape.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Elan must've been pretty good for a game of that to go on for an hour and a half.

[bunsen_h]

I'm sure Therkla was very entertained. :)

"Will he break the paladin? Will he? Such finesse, such dramatic tension..."

Elan must've been pretty good for a game of that to go on for an hour and a half.

By "like that", he might have meant just the "taking turns strategically, like in That".

[Fyraltari]

I don't know about the first one, but the event horizon is most definitely *not* where gravity becomes infinite--that's the singularity. The event horizon is where gravity becomes strong enough for light to not escape.

I’m pretty sure that’s not what an ergosphere is either. Also time doesn’t reverse inside a black hole but ‘the future’ becomes ‘closer to the singularity’.

[Quizatzhaderac]

My first post about singularities probably should have been in blue, since it's technically true, but specious to the point of being a lie. And any further discussion is just silly semantics.

The gravity does in fact go to infinity at the event horizon. The surface gravity does not, and remains finite until you get to a true mass singularity. "Surface gravity" is before taking time dilation into account and works almost exactly like Newtonian gravity.

Also, yes time doesn't actually reverse inside an ergosphere. The equations do say that temporal component of the spacetime metric becomes negative, but that really only implies the impossibility of staying still in such a place.

[Snails]

No, no; that one's Escape Artist.

Want to squeeze through a two-inch gap? Don't worry, DC 80 and your head will fit! Want to squeeze through a wall of force? No problem, DC 120 and you can find a gap that would mean the spell would have failed if it existed!

I do not see these as fundamentally different as Evasion, that there are gaps that in the swirling blast of fire or in the wall or in the forcefield that simple inspection would indicate do not exist, yet are exploitable by someone with a level of skill that is indistinguishable from magic.

For a Wall of Force, it is literally the least solid thing that exists, arguably even less solid than a wind wall. Only it seems perfectly solid under most conditions.

[Jasdoif]

I do not see these as fundamentally different as Evasion, that there are gaps that in the swirling blast of fire or in the wall or in the forcefield that simple inspection would indicate do not exist, yet are exploitable by someone with a level of skill that is indistinguishable from magic.

That would have been a better approach than "getting through a space when one’s head shouldn’t even be able to fit; this can be as small as 2 inches square for Medium-size creatures", yes.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I know we must have covered this already, but the flashback scenes with the Scribbles and the Gates were done in crayon, indicating an unreliable narrator, right? So even though the flashback scenes have matched up fairly well to the actual geometries of each Gate and its surroundings, that doesn't have to be true for Serini's Gate.

Though if Serini was able to have interdimensional stone thrown around like the Burj Khalifa uses concrete---despite the cost being high enough that the dwarven builders felt it necessary to cut corners on the Tomb's construction---nothing says the Gate can't be buried under a few hundred feet of the stuff. I.e., it was at ground-level, like in the crayon drawing, and then Serini's dwarves showed up and raised the ground.

It actually seems to me that the dwarven contractors cut corners on Dorukan's Dungeon in the Redmountain Hills, given the general environment and Dorukan and Lirian looking on in the background, and not Kraagor's Tomb.

In the subsequent strip (#277), we get a flashback to Serini directing the delivery of creatures to her stronghold under construction, but there's no indication as to who is doing the work. And unless I'm highly mistaken, doesn't it generally take wizards to produce and form something like "multidimensional stone", and dwarves aren't overly fond of wizardry?

[Fyraltari]

In the subsequent strip (#277), we get a flashback to Serini directing the delivery of creatures to her stronghold under construction, but there's no indication as to who is doing the work. And unless I'm highly mistaken, doesn't it generally take wizards to produce and form something like "multidimensional stone", and dwarves aren't overly fond of wizardry?

I'm pretty sure magical smithing and architecture is okay for dwarves.

[Schroeswald]

It actually seems to me that the dwarven contractors cut corners on Dorukan's Dungeon in the Redmountain Hills, given the general environment and Dorukan and Lirian looking on in the background, and not Kraagor's Tomb.

Its pretty clearly a reference to Dorukan's Dungeon, they mention the missing Water Dungeon that protects the Amulet Nale was looking for and the gate not being completely covered (also being in the basement but this could apply to the gates of Girard and Serini).

[TheNecrocomicon]

I'm pretty sure magical smithing and architecture is okay for dwarves.

True. I guess I forget that OotS-world is not subject to the same species norms and lore as other D&D universes.

[bunsen_h]

True. I guess I forget that OotS-world is not subject to the same species norms and lore as other D&D universes.

I can't think of a setting in which Dwarves weren't okay with doing magical smithing and architecture themselves, though I don't doubt that they exist. Not too keen on doing other kinds of magic, and resistant to being the targets of other people using magic, yes.

[mjasghar]

That seems to have been a development of fantasy writers who have tended to give them a Scandinavian vibe of horned helmets and axes and distrust of magic/use of magical weapons.
This also ties on with the tendency to make elves overtly magical especially in their culture. Concomitant with that is dwarves focusing on clerical magic for their magical needs.

[Ghosty]

It actually seems to me that the dwarven contractors cut corners on Dorukan's Dungeon in the Redmountain Hills, given the general environment and Dorukan and Lirian looking on in the background, and not Kraagor's Tomb.

In the subsequent strip (#277), we get a flashback to Serini directing the delivery of creatures to her stronghold under construction, but there's no indication as to who is doing the work. And unless I'm highly mistaken, doesn't it generally take wizards to produce and form something like "multidimensional stone", and dwarves aren't overly fond of wizardry?

You're right. And thanks for the link, because it made me realize that in the flashback, we consistently see pine trees and pretty substantial hills around Serini's and Kraggor's rift. But we don't see any close hills or trees in the shots that pan around Kraagor's statue. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html
And we see some very low hills in the distance when Oona first flies into the bugbear village, but the hills aren't as close as in the crayon drawings. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html

So where did the hills and trees go?

[Jasdoif]

You're right. And thanks for the link, because it made me realize that in the flashback, we consistently see pine trees and pretty substantial hills around Serini's and Kraggor's rift. But we don't see any close hills or trees in the shots that pan around Kraagor's statue. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html
And we see some very low hills in the distance when Oona first flies into the bugbear village, but the hills aren't as close as in the crayon drawings. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html

So where did the hills and trees go?

Clearly(?), Kragoor's statue and the bugbear village are on the outskirts of the hills, so they only show up on certain angles; and the bugbears cut down the trees to make the village's buildings.

Or Shojo's retelling involves his best approximation of the locale, because he probably wouldn't need to send the Order to check on rifts if the Sapphire Guard would do so themselves.

Or maybe both!

[Schroeswald]

Or Shojo's retelling involves his best approximation of the locale, because he probably wouldn't need to send the Order to check on rifts if the Sapphire Guard would do so themselves.

It's definitely not this one because the whole point of recruiting the Order was to have them check on the gates, the Sapphire Guard had that pesky oath keeping them from checking them out.

[danielxcutter]

People have mentioned Stone Shape is a thing... so the ravine was probably built that way. Whether or not it was built over the Gate or not is an entirely different question entirely.

[bunsen_h]

I can't think of a setting in which Dwarves weren't okay with doing magical smithing and architecture themselves, though I don't doubt that they exist. Not too keen on doing other kinds of magic, and resistant to being the targets of other people using magic, yes.

Actually, looking back through my old AD&D books, I see that dwarves were flat-out barred from being magic users, and PC dwarves were barred from being clerics. NPC dwarf clerics maxed out at 8th level. All of the non-human races were unlimited as thieves, and pretty much only as thieves -- half-elves were unlimited as druids. Half-orcs were limited as thieves but unlimited as assassins.

Officially. I don't recall ever seeing a group that paid attention to those rules. The game designers were trying to make the game human-centric, and make up for the non-humans' special abilities, but the whole "all high-level non-humans are thieves" came off as skeevy-racist.

People have mentioned Stone Shape is a thing... so the ravine was probably built that way. Whether or not it was built over the Gate or not is an entirely different question entirely.

Stone Shape can mould only 10 ft³ + 1 ft³/level. I don't think it's likely that the ravine was built that way unless there's some way of escalating the spell's scope by many orders of magnitude.

[Rogar Demonblud]

They changed how level limits worked in 2E, since I played a dwarf fighter-cleric that was as close as I could get to paladin. Honestly, I think the intention was that demihumans would all multiclass, which would spread out their XP so far they'd have trouble getting to the level limits.

[danielxcutter]

They changed how level limits worked in 2E, since I played a dwarf fighter-cleric that was as close as I could get to paladin. Honestly, I think the intention was that demihumans would all multiclass, which would spread out their XP so far they'd have trouble getting to the level limits.

Yeesh, I’m starting to think D&D racism was even worse than in 3.5e. At least the “common” humanoid races didn’t get screwed over that much.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Eh, they were still trying to balance wargame units. Despite the game having left all that behind almost immediately.

[factotum]

That seems to have been a development of fantasy writers who have tended to give them a Scandinavian vibe of horned helmets and axes and distrust of magic/use of magical weapons.
This also ties on with the tendency to make elves overtly magical especially in their culture. Concomitant with that is dwarves focusing on clerical magic for their magical needs.

What it might come down to is that dwarves and elves traditionally distrust each other in fantasy, and since the elves are the magical types, in order to make dwarves as opposite as possible they don't use magic. Note that Tolkien never made any distinction like this, but then, Tolkien's fantasy world is actually very low-magic, so people not using magic doesn't mark them out as special in any way.

[danielxcutter]

What it might come down to is that dwarves and elves traditionally distrust each other in fantasy, and since the elves are the magical types, in order to make dwarves as opposite as possible they don't use magic. Note that Tolkien never made any distinction like this, but then, Tolkien's fantasy world is actually very low-magic, so people not using magic doesn't mark them out as special in any way.

That makes sense, plus even Gandalf, one of the greatest spellcasters in the series, is competent in melee combat. It’s different from D&D where even the most non-magical adventurer wants some kind of magic item.

[Rockphed]

That makes sense, plus even Gandalf, one of the greatest spellcasters in the series, is competent in melee combat. It’s different from D&D where even the most non-magical adventurer wants some kind of magic item.

In Tolkien the best smiths are elves who have been smithing since they were born some time in the first age. They have literally thousands of years of experience. The next best smiths are dwarves, who naturally live to about 250.

[bunsen_h]

That makes sense, plus even Gandalf, one of the greatest spellcasters in the series, is competent in melee combat. It’s different from D&D where even the most non-magical adventurer wants some kind of magic item.

Gandalf is kind of a special case. The five wizards ("the Istari") are incarnated Maiar -- essentially, equivalent to high-level angels, subordinate to the Valar, who are equivalent to archangels in the hierarchy of beings. Their mandate is to encourage the beings of Middle-Earth and support them in their battle with Sauron, but to keep a relatively low profile themselves. At the time of LotR, the Istari are thousands of years old, not counting their time prior to incarnation. They've had the time to pick up some skills, and again, they're supposed to use their non-mundane power sparingly.