Modernizing the Wheel of Time

[Iruka]

yeah, seems to have shonen traits at least. and like Star Wars, WoT seems to be partially built out of poorly handled eastern culture. if RJ was taking inspiration from such cultures it would go a long way to explaining the way he writes gender- a lot of the women in the series could be described as tsundere.

I keep hearing that most female characters were heavily inspired by his wife.

but yeah. Aes Sedai. not as competent as they say they are.

Which is one of the major arcs of the series, I think. The White Tower is nowhere near the beacon of rational competence and purity its propaganda would have you believe.

[Saph]

I keep hearing that most female characters were heavily inspired by his wife.

Yup, he said so in interviews.

If you read his responses to these sorts of questions, it seems as though Robert Jordan grew up in a family where the women tended to act a lot like the ones in Wheel of Time do. He didn't seem to have a problem with it.

[Psyren]

In fairness, Aes Sedai learning that they're not as special as they think they are and that their way is not necessarily the best way is a major theme of the series.

Exactly - a lot of their beliefs (not just about the world, but about the True Source and the Pattern in general) get challenged quite a bit as the series progresses. In addition to several just plain being false due to centuries of meddling from the Shadow and general losses from the Breaking.

But I think the presentation is fair too. Moiraine has a great scene where she acknowledges the Tower's flaws, but points out that the kingdoms of Randland would likely have forgotten there was even a Dark One imprisoned if it weren't for the Tower and its oaths, imperfect as they are.

You're not kicked out for showing emotion, you're kicked out for not being calm enough to act under pressure. Showing fear is fine. Panicking and running is not.

You're not even allowed to let it show per New Spring. (Blushes are fine though)

I keep hearing that most female characters were heavily inspired by his wife.

If his wife goes around arching her eyebrows and sniffing all the time then I could see it.
Is it just me or does GRRM has a bit more variety in his portrayals? Granted, his female characters also have much less prominence/agency...

[Ramza00]

If his wife goes around arching her eyebrows and sniffing all the time then I could see it.
Is it just me or does GRRM has a bit more variety in his portrayals? Granted, his female characters also have much less prominence/agency...

Yes. But GRRM also wants us to empathize with monsters, throughout his entire writting career even before ASOIAF in 1996.

Watch 16:14 to 17:00 for context.



[Writer 11 episodes, upgraded to Producer for 27 episodes, upgraded again to Supervising Producer for 10 episodes. Pretty much the entire run after the pilot.]

[Saph]

I'd say that GRRM's women are more varied, but Robert Jordan's ones feel more like real people.

Writing characters of the opposite sex and doing it well (as opposed to writing ones that are just OK) is very hard. Jordan seems to have dealt with that by basing his female characters very closely off the women he grew up with and the one he married.

[snowblizz]

RJ's wife was also his editor and collaborator (as it is with many writers it seems). So undoubtedly she has had som impact on the story and characters.


Can't find the post about ta'veren I just read to quote, but we should note that being ta'veren isn't permanent either. Basically you remian that as needed. I would argue somewhere midseries Team Magikarp are ta'veren for awhile. How else would a bunch of bumbling knowitall morons foil everything around them.

[Gnoman]

Nyneave in particular seems to have a certain amount of pattern-warping around her. I like the idea of her being ta'veren, but Rand being so incredibly powerful that Moirane couldn't even notice.

[Anteros]

Word of God on the series is that there were only the 3 ta'veren. Originally he apparently planned for a 4th but scrapped the idea.

Other threads that are close to the Ta'veren in the pattern supposedly have a similar level of influence on the threads around them.

[Traab]

I mean, I take taveren to mean more than just plot armor, you see it with the big three dudes. Rand cant even exist without all sorts of strange chance related events going on everywhere within the city limits of him. Absurd things happen constantly around him and have little to nothing to do with the story. It could be anything from a single spark lofting into the air, traveling 16 city blocks, then landing in a bundle of baby blankets in an orphanage to a horse and carriage going out of control, crashing into a crowded marketplace, and somehow flipping through the air not touching a single person before it lands upright with everything inside it still in its proper place and undamaged aside from a scratch in the seat leather that looks like a dragon.

At least matt and perrin have their fate twisting work directly effecting what they need to do. If they were all mutants like Domino or Longshot, people whose power twists luck in their favor, matt and perrin would be alpha level but rand would be an out of control Omega. His power goes everywhere, is totally unpredictable, and he seems to have no control over it, while matt has his tied entirely to personal luck and luck on the battlefiled while perrin seems to have his tied to convincing people to follow him iirc.

[lord_khaine]

If they were all mutants like Domino or Longshot, people whose power twists luck in their favor, matt and perrin would be alpha level but rand would be an out of control Omega.

A random tangent. But those classifications always annoyed me
I mean, so alright, Alpha is the start, so the weakest possible level. And Omega is the end, so the strongest possible level.
What then about beta, gamma, epsilon ect?
Thats not how it works? what the heck?! Do you even know how the alphabet goes?

[Traab]

A random tangent. But those classifications always annoyed me
I mean, so alright, Alpha is the start, so the weakest possible level. And Omega is the end, so the strongest possible level.
What then about beta, gamma, epsilon ect?
Thats not how it works? what the heck?! Do you even know how the alphabet goes?

Meh, it doesnt bother me much, Alpha is constantly used as a top dog descriptor. Alpha males and things like that. So making them be ranked 1st makes some sense. Omega is for people who break the scale. Basically gods. Beta being second also makes sense in that alpha beta dynamic thats been around for quite some time. As for the rest, its been a LONG time since I paid any attention, but wasnt gamma and epsilon people with total garbage mutations like blue skin and nothing else, and those whose mutations are actually harmful to themselves?

[Kitten Champion]

According to a brief google search.

Alpha-level mutants are defined by having no visible mutations. They also have powers that can be practically applied to combat and come at no detriment to themselves. Kitty Pryde is the example used.

Beta-level mutants can pass for base-line humans without careful observation, but possess some unique trait that can be found when they're examined under scrutiny. They're also defined as having powers which can be effective in combat but are potentially inconvenient or dangerous to themselves or others unless restrained in some way. Cyclops or Rogue for example.

Gamma-level are mutants who can't pass for base-line humans under even the briefest scrutiny, and possess combat-effective powers. Nightcrawler and Beast for example.

Delta-level mutants are those with indirect or opaque mutant abilities which are difficult to quantify in any real sense. The example given is Domino or Forge - both can do things beyond what a human can but neither are measurable.

Epsilon-level mutants are those with abilities that serve no function in combat but are still - like Gamma-level mutants - obviously mutants. While, for obvious reasons, they're rarely featured characters in X-Men comics they are quite a bit more typical of what mutants are. One example would be Beak, who resembles a bird somewhat and can kind of fly very briefly with strenuous effort on his part, but is functionally powerless.

Omega-level mutants are those with powers that could be a threat on a national level or beyond and that are difficult to grasp the upper limits of.

...and that's it apparently.

[Ramza00]

Just a reminder Kitten Champion that those labels have been written by multiple authors, and they have never been internally consistent. In fact when Jonathan Hickman took over being the "meta" author of the X-Men in the last few years, one of his first things was to write a 10 page memo on what Omega means going forward, and we get a reduced version of that memo as a single data page in House of X 1.

That said we have no clue if there has been clean up definitions for the other 5 ranks. They may be abandoned, used consistently, or used nonconsistently.

That said from a storytelling perspective what is the purpose of all these lists? I understand humans love to count things and create hierarchy, trying to assemble order where there is none (Umberto Eco has a great essay on this, I will not link to it here for it does include profanity and an idea that will make some people uncomfortable.) But often these lists gets in the way of storytelling in the pulp story that is superhero comics.

Some type of lists are good, but other type of lists get in the way, it is the job of the author to have an intuitive sense when the thing is useful vs it is not.

------

Pivoting it back to WoT. Jordan had a 21 power scale for the Aes Sedai women loved hierarchy based on True Power Strength. Then that 21 power scale became something more expansive (goes to look up the number) with 60 power levels, then 72, and maybe an additional 6 on top of the 72. At a point adding more complexity is just hurting oneself and the reader's experience.

[Traab]

Yeah last time I read anything about it, omega alpha and beta were power measurements. Beta were people like beast. They have combat capable powers but arent massive threats on their own, storm is alpha because of the damage she can cause with her powers, meanwhile gods like thor and some forms of magneto are omega depending on how far the author wants to stretch his power. Meanwhile I THINK epsilon was a physical mutation like beak at best. Cant hide what you are cant defend yourself with the mutation either. While gamma was something like "Every time I use my power, my body gets exposed to cancer causing radiation" or whatever. Basically dangerous to the mutant himself powers. I may have swapped them, its been forever.

*EDIT* As for why rank them, it was less about the reader and more of a government ranking iirc. Organizations like SHIELD had threat assessments and rankings for everyone they encountered. It wasnt always about raw destructive power either. Someone like mystigue was high ranking due to how dangerous she was at infiltrating, sabotaging and other such subtle skills. A general, "How *&^%^& are we if this person goes evil?" scale. I think they might also factor in how hard it would be to counter them. If you ever watched the old fantastic four cartoon, the human torch was CONSTANTLY being bathed in extinguishing foam by doom, so even though his damage potential is high, the fact that automated firefighting systems could down him in short order probably would have lowered his threat rating a bit. Remember im talking the cartoon, not any absurd comics where he literally turns into a supernova or other insane level of heat.

[Ramza00]

Yeah last time I read anything about it, omega alpha and beta were power measurements. Beta were people like beast. They have combat capable powers but arent massive threats on their own, storm is alpha because of the damage she can cause with her powers, meanwhile gods like thor and some forms of magneto are omega depending on how far the author wants to stretch his power. Meanwhile I THINK epsilon was a physical mutation like beak at best. Cant hide what you are cant defend yourself with the mutation either. While gamma was something like "Every time I use my power, my body gets exposed to cancer causing radiation" or whatever. Basically dangerous to the mutant himself powers. I may have swapped them, its been forever.

It is all different now. New definition under hickman. Links to the image.

https://i.redd.it/t318nmjizcc31.jpg

As you can see Omega means impossible to measure a limit, but also there really can't be two omegas for each category. Except Reality manipulation can have different styles of RM (3 different Omegas but Universal, Psionic, and Quantum) and two different Omega Telepaths (we do not know if Jean Grey and Quentin Quiere have different styles of Telepathy, for example QQ can speed up his thoughts but do other things such as influence others, that may be a different aspect than Jean Grey's Omega telepathy, and her telekinesis is not Omega.)

-----

But yeah for the reason posting this post. Storm is now an Omega, as is Magneto, two things that were debatable prior to Hickman via Feats but were not labeled "textually" in the narrative that these two are Omega. Likewise previous characters labeled Omega have been retconned to be not Omega or the characters inside the text thinking they know what something means but it is merely beyond their comprehension / language skills and was not supposed to be a specific factual claim.

Yeah Comics contradict news at 11

[Traab]

It is all different now. New definition under hickman. Links to the image.

https://i.redd.it/t318nmjizcc31.jpg

As you can see Omega means impossible to measure a limit, but also there really can't be two omegas for each category. Except Reality manipulation can have different styles of RM (3 different Omegas but Universal, Psionic, and Quantum) and two different Omega Telepaths (we do not know if Jean Grey and Quentin Quiere have different styles of Telepathy, for example QQ can speed up his thoughts but do other things such as influence others, that may be a different aspect than Jean Grey's Omega telepathy, and her telekinesis is not Omega.)

-----

But yeah for the reason posting this post. Storm is now an Omega, as is Magneto, two things that were debatable prior to Hickman via Feats but were not labeled "textually" in the narrative that these two are Omega. Likewise previous characters labeled Omega have been retconned to be not Omega or the characters inside the text thinking they know what something means but it is merely beyond their comprehension / language skills and was not supposed to be a specific factual claim.

Yeah Comics contradict news at 11

Pfft, next you will tell me that Lobo wasnt always and wont always be a bishonen. Comics changing, yeah right.

[Ramza00]

Pfft, next you will tell me that Lobo wasnt always and wont always be a bishonen. Comics changing, yeah right.

What did they do to my Main Man? Does he still use a motorbyke?

[Psyren]

Nyneave in particular seems to have a certain amount of pattern-warping around her. I like the idea of her being ta'veren, but Rand being so incredibly powerful that Moirane couldn't even notice.

You could also argue that wasn't really her, but Rand or the other two musketeers warping her thread to be where he needed it to be at any given time.

It's difficult to tell exactly how much in the books is fated vs. a result of choice. I remember one scene where Perrin chose to chase after Rand and Min saw new images around him after he made that decision, and I liked that - it indicated that not everything was prophesied or set in stone ahead of time. That kind of agency is what the show will need to be pretty clear on, because Wheel of Time is just crammed full of prophecy.

I mean, I take taveren to mean more than just plot armor, you see it with the big three dudes. Rand cant even exist without all sorts of strange chance related events going on everywhere within the city limits of him. Absurd things happen constantly around him and have little to nothing to do with the story. It could be anything from a single spark lofting into the air, traveling 16 city blocks, then landing in a bundle of baby blankets in an orphanage to a horse and carriage going out of control, crashing into a crowded marketplace, and somehow flipping through the air not touching a single person before it lands upright with everything inside it still in its proper place and undamaged aside from a scratch in the seat leather that looks like a dragon.

At least matt and perrin have their fate twisting work directly effecting what they need to do. If they were all mutants like Domino or Longshot, people whose power twists luck in their favor, matt and perrin would be alpha level but rand would be an out of control Omega. His power goes everywhere, is totally unpredictable, and he seems to have no control over it, while matt has his tied entirely to personal luck and luck on the battlefiled while perrin seems to have his tied to convincing people to follow him iirc.

Yeah this. Moiraine even comments early on (book 3) that the random chaos is a great way to track them down - especially Rand - or see where they've been, and it only gets more intense as the series progresses.

We also see the downside of it whereby bubbles of evil get drawn to them more frequently; some of those do have story impact.

Some type of lists are good, but other type of lists get in the way, it is the job of the author to have an intuitive sense when the thing is useful vs it is not.

------

Pivoting it back to WoT. Jordan had a 21 power scale for the Aes Sedai women loved hierarchy based on True Power Strength. Then that 21 power scale became something more expansive (goes to look up the number) with 60 power levels, then 72, and maybe an additional 6 on top of the 72. At a point adding more complexity is just hurting oneself and the reader's experience.

Agreed and, as I've said before, the list actively hurts the story in several ways beyond just adding a bunch of complexity for no reason. Beyond the squicky (and unnecessary) implications of the most powerful female Forsaken on the list being weaker than the weakest male, it also doesn't fit with their personalities. I would expect the manipulators and scientists on the list to be nominally weaker than the ones that led armies and relied on brute force, but that's not at all the way the power levels lined up. You look at someone like Rahvin, who is basically the male equivalent of Graendal because of his powerful mind control, but he's also just plain stronger than the direct fighters like Sammael and Demandred and it just feels out of place to me. Same with Aginor, his strength to the Shadow should have been his ability to develop all kinds of shadowspawn moreso than his raw strength.

[Rynjin]

What did they do to my Main Man? Does he still use a motorbyke?

A picture's worth 1000 words.

Spoiler: Boy this image was bigger than I thought it would be

Show

[Dargaron]

A picture's worth 1000 words.

Spoiler: Boy this image was bigger than I thought it would be

Show

There must be some mistake. You seem to have posted a Dark Eldar from Warhammer 40k.

[Lord Raziere]

There must be some mistake. You seem to have posted a Dark Eldar from Warhammer 40k.

I only know Lobo from that one episode of JLU where everyone thinks Superman died and he showed up to try and replace him. But I mentally compare this to that, and intellectually know hes been ruined beyond recognition and wish that I seen/read/watched more Lobo stuff so I could feel a proper passionate rage about it because he seems like a funny deadpool-like character that doesn't deserve this. its a very weird combination of feelings.

[Darth Credence]

Agreed and, as I've said before, the list actively hurts the story in several ways beyond just adding a bunch of complexity for no reason. Beyond the squicky (and unnecessary) implications of the most powerful female Forsaken on the list being weaker than the weakest male, it also doesn't fit with their personalities. I would expect the manipulators and scientists on the list to be nominally weaker than the ones that led armies and relied on brute force, but that's not at all the way the power levels lined up. You look at someone like Rahvin, who is basically the male equivalent of Graendal because of his powerful mind control, but he's also just plain stronger than the direct fighters like Sammael and Demandred and it just feels out of place to me. Same with Aginor, his strength to the Shadow should have been his ability to develop all kinds of shadowspawn moreso than his raw strength.

I agree that having the strongest female weaker than the weakest male forsaken is a problem, but I think that your idea of it not matching their personalities is basically your own biases coming into play. Why would the manipulators and scientists necessarily be weaker than those that lead armies? You've pointed out time and again that physical strength and strength in the power are not or should not be related, and that seems to be kind of the basis for the idea that the females should be as strong as the males. That seems contradicted by thinking that those who use brute force should be stronger in the power than those that don't.
It also sounds like a statement that the best path is to use brute force to accomplish one's goals - after all, if the ones that use brute force should be the strongest, it implies to me that the others don't use brute force because they are not strong enough, and have to resort to manipulation or science instead. I would think that whether or not a Forsaken, or any other user of the power, focuses on brute force, or science, or manipulation, would be more related to their core personality than to their strength.

[Psyren]

I agree that having the strongest female weaker than the weakest male forsaken is a problem, but I think that your idea of it not matching their personalities is basically your own biases coming into play. Why would the manipulators and scientists necessarily be weaker than those that lead armies? You've pointed out time and again that physical strength and strength in the power are not or should not be related, and that seems to be kind of the basis for the idea that the females should be as strong as the males. That seems contradicted by thinking that those who use brute force should be stronger in the power than those that don't.

I guess I just like the idea of each member of the Forsaken bringing something unique to the table. If Rahvin is a better manipulator than Be'lal while also being nearly as strong as Rand, it feels like Be'lal is a waste of space.

I thought they did this really well with the saidar users - Mesaana and Moghedien are weaker in the power than Lanfear and Semirhage, but the biggest benefits they bring to the Shadow aren't brute force - rather, Moghedien was their most talented dreamwalker/TAR-spy, while Mesaana was their most talented recruiter/infiltrator/IRL-spy.

It also sounds like a statement that the best path is to use brute force to accomplish one's goals - after all, if the ones that use brute force should be the strongest, it implies to me that the others don't use brute force because they are not strong enough, and have to resort to manipulation or science instead. I would think that whether or not a Forsaken, or any other user of the power, focuses on brute force, or science, or manipulation, would be more related to their core personality than to their strength.

No, bold is the complete opposite of what I'm saying - brute force is inherently useful, sure, but the other talents they bring might be even more valuable than that. Aginor arguably did more for the Shadow than any of the rest of them by inventing the various Shadowspawn for example. Asmodean meanwhile... uh... hm.

Basically what I'm hoping the show does is flesh out each of the Forsaken a bit more than the books did, even the ones that die earlier. Maybe scenes of them attaining power in their respective nations. Certainly more Ansaline Gardens-style team meetings would be great. More of them getting bossed around by Shaidar Haran would be funny.

[Ramza00]

I only know Lobo from that one episode of JLU where everyone thinks Superman died and he showed up to try and replace him. But I mentally compare this to that, and intellectually know hes been ruined beyond recognition and wish that I seen/read/watched more Lobo stuff so I could feel a proper passionate rage about it because he seems like a funny deadpool-like character that doesn't deserve this. its a very weird combination of feelings.

I Know Nothing!

But if I were to guess this is occuring precisely due to Deadpool, Lobo was in some ways a meta character commenting on the silliness of DC via a different "alien" form of silliness, but due to the success of the Deadpool movies probably made the new 52 reconsider how they do Lobo in order to try to make him more popular.

Agreed and, as I've said before, the list actively hurts the story in several ways beyond just adding a bunch of complexity for no reason. Beyond the squicky (and unnecessary) implications of the most powerful female Forsaken on the list being weaker than the weakest male, it also doesn't fit with their personalities. I would expect the manipulators and scientists on the list to be nominally weaker than the ones that led armies and relied on brute force, but that's not at all the way the power levels lined up. You look at someone like Rahvin, who is basically the male equivalent of Graendal because of his powerful mind control, but he's also just plain stronger than the direct fighters like Sammael and Demandred and it just feels out of place to me. Same with Aginor, his strength to the Shadow should have been his ability to develop all kinds of shadowspawn moreso than his raw strength.

Sidenote let me bring up a complaint I voiced earlier, got an answer I thought satisfactory of the time, but Pysren comment just reopened it up and I am less satisified than before, even less satisfied than the original complaint.

Spoiler: Rahvin

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I forgot Rahvin was big on the whole Compulsion thing for he died so early in the books. [Book 5, Fires of Heaven, aka right in the middle where there is a massive power ramp of the Rand between Book 4 to 6.]

Rahvin whole idea of winning the internal competition of the Forsaken was to take over the lands of Andor and later Cairhein. Those two lands are important to the readers for the first few books takes place mainly in Andor and one of the female protagonists is a princess of Andor and Rand is kind of the hidden prince of Cairhein.

Rahvin did this via using compulsion and enchantment magic setting himself up as a "fake leader" that lived in Andor but it was the remote mountains so no one knew of him (insert mental manipulations here.) He comes down to the civilized capital of Andor and starts socially schmoozing till he is the advisor of the Queen much like Jafar with the Sultan.

Rahvin had a second plan where he was going to link with 2 female forsaken and 1 male forsaken (Graendal, Lanfear, and Samuel) and try to kill Rand. The problem with this 2nd plan is the Forsaken have to trust one another for only one person can be in charge of the Link and lead it and these 4 people kind of trust one another but also do not trust one another for they are evil but also 4 people who scheme by their very nature. In fact why would you ever Graendal or Lanfear, literally two of the least trustworthy evil characters in the series.

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So why didn't Rahvin do this 2nd plan? Rahvin who is already fine with making men and women a groveling mess with compulsion. Why did he set out to do a stupid linking plan instead of a better linking plan. Rahvin should have set out a plan where he find a women channeler and than have that women channeler compelled to find other women channelers (plus one man channeler) and together they grab a link of 36 people to go after Rand. (You want 2 men so Rhavin can be the leader for if there is only 1 man in groups of 27 or less then the women get to control the link of any link where there is only 1 man and the number is 27 and lower. Two men allow you to have a larger link of up to 36 people but also one of the two men can now be in charge of the link, or a women can be in charge of the link.)

We already know that any group of 13 women can overpower any man, and thus it would be even stronger with 34 women and 2 men. Rahvin is also the equal in strength to Rand / LTT. [Small caveat even though Rhavin is as strong as Rand / LTT in raw power, LTT was a little stronger in battle effectiveness even if he was not a stronger in raw power.] Thus a small link is all you need to overpower Rand. Regardless finding even the weakest women, women who are two weak to gain the attention of The White Tower Aes Sedai is all you need to succeed with this "better" linking plan.

My point here is this is not necessarily the best tactics to win The Last Battle, but this is literally a better version of Rahvin's two plans. Furthermore it is not really extra insightful but naturally flows from the important parts of the stupid plan Rhavin was coming up with. You need women to link with, linking makes you stronger than Rand, thus you can win via raw power or via battle tactics. What you do not need is Lanfear and Graendal two women you should never trust.

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Rahvin loves setting up his "harem" via compulsion with his style of compulsion is making women see him as some form of sexual adonis, on the edge of ecstasy. [Something he does not need to do, due to his looks per the text, yet he loves to do it anyway due to control.]

So why not have those women do a little work when they are not around him? Makes no sense in my mind, but whatever

[Psyren]

The answer is that Rahvin is an idiot, as are Graendal, Mesaana and Semirhage. Really the Forsaken as a whole are a mess of bad writing, slipshod motivations, and fiat. But that's part of the problem when you set up not just one but an entire cadre of epic-level antagonists while the protagonists aren't even double-digits.

[Sapphire Guard]

The best fighters are not necessarily the most powerful people. Leading armies isn't really a matter of brute force.

Aginor is super powerful, but he's not very good in a fight. That's fine.

Spoiler: plan

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]

So why didn't Rahvin do this 2nd plan? Rahvin who is already fine with making men and women a groveling mess with compulsion. Why did he set out to do a stupid linking plan instead of a better linking plan. Rahvin should have set out a plan where he find a women channeler and than have that women channeler compelled to find other women channelers (plus one man channeler) and together they grab a link of 36 people to go after Rand. (You want 2 men so Rhavin can be the leader for if there is only 1 man in groups of 27 or less then the women get to control the link of any link where there is only 1 man and the number is 27 and lower. Two men allow you to have a larger link of up to 36 people but also one of the two men can now be in charge of the link, or a women can be in charge of the link.)

Where does he find all these people?

Most channeling organisations are hidden, and the black tower isn't formed yet. He has to find and kidnap an Aes Sedai who knows how to test for the ability to channel (he can't teach her Compulsion through saidar) and have her wander around testing people. For every hundred people you test, you find maybe two or three than can learn to channel, which our Aes Sedai then has to kidnap and bring to him without anyone noticing, and hope she doesn't run into any of her sisters who ask her what the hell she's doing.These people then have to be taught so they can gain enough strength to be useful, and some of them will die in the training.

Demandred did something like this, but he did it by devoting himself to building his coterie for years and taking over a society that already had channelers to hand.

Morgase broke out of his compulsion as soon as he stopped paying attention to her, he's not as good at it as Graendal. Perrin broke out of Lanfear's compulsion and promptly broke her neck.

With channelers at 2-3 percent of the population, to find 36 people, you have to test around 1200-1800 people, train them so they gain strength, hope nobody breaks compulsion and kills you at the wrong time.

And then...you have 36 people, but only one of them can attack. One of those AoE lightning spells or balefire could leave you down half your circle.

[Psyren]

Morgase has insane willpower. Using her as an example of Rahvin's strength isn't really representative. Same with Perrin (who is TV and a master dreamwalker on top of that, when we already know Lanfear isn't even the best with TAR among the Forsaken.)

And the whole point is that they would use a combination of Compulsion + BA + 13x13 Turning to get existing channelers, not that they would be training new ones from scratch.

[Saph]

Rahvin should have set out a plan where he find a women channeler and than have that women channeler compelled to find other women channelers (plus one man channeler) and together they grab a link of 36 people to go after Rand.

The whole 14-book series of the Wheel of Time is a very long and detailed illustration as to why "just use brute force to make everyone do what you want" works REALLY REALLY BADLY in the long term. It's shown over and over again that the biggest weakness of the Forsaken and the Darkfriends as a whole is that they absolutely suck at working together. The Forsaken can't even co-operate effectively as a team of 4, what do you think's going to happen when you put that number up to 36?

Pretty much every single time that Wheel of Time channellers try to get around the "who can you trust" problem by using magically enforced obedience, it blows up in their faces. This isn't a coincidence, it's one of the core themes of the series. People are different; working together with differing people is hard; but getting those people to willingly work together despite their differences is the best way to create anything of lasting value.

[Lord Raziere]

yeah that another weird part of the series, Darkfriends just appear. like there is little to no explanation for how there is so many or where they come from, what methods are used to get them from even if we know people use magic to turn people evil, they just show up out of nowhere seemingly. and the Forsaken themselves is unclear how much of a threat they're supposed to be how much resources they have or whatever, because they are hidden and also just seem to suddenly come out of nowhere or reveal themselves? and there is so many characters I can't remember the specific instances of it, because its like they will be in the middle of an important political thing or battle and then suddenly darkfriends will come out of the woodwork to try and do something evil and mess things up.

like its almost to "and this guy is a darkfriend! DUN DUN DUUUUUUN!" level of suddenness and memorability, because you'd know the characters so little, so the only reaction to it is "well this is happening now." like sure, compulsion, Turning and whatnot, but I've never felt like it ever had impact but I don't remember any specific character where I'm like "oh I'm sad this person is a dark friend now after all the time we've known them." all the darkfriends are just....seemingly there to suddenly try and be a threat. like the books felt to me like despite all that was written, that the theme RJ was going for with freedom was only expressed with Rand angsting about his role, and not really showing or focusing on the Darkfriends and why its their lack of freedom to choose being good thats the problem with the Dark One. maybe I'm wrong because I don't remember and this was years ago, but the series for all its spilled ink and tomes I never got the impression that Turning was important as anything other than a plot device until the very end where Rand upon the third mirror world gets a mindwashed world and then gives up, apparently deciding that just because one of your options is brainwashing that means doing anything other than letting the wheel continue as is but without the Dark One, is evil apparently. Wheel of Time: the longest series to ever end on status quo is god.

[Psyren]

There was one Darkfriend that was deep and well-developed:

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Ingtar Shinowa. We got to know him, his reasons for joining the Shadow, the horrible things he did while there, and his heroic sacrifice, starting in Eye of the World but mostly throughout TGH.

Most of the rest were just moustache-twirling villains who signed up to get personal power or a support network outside of the regular channels/strata of their societies. The books do at least make it clear that most of them never expected The Last Battle to happen in their lifetimes when they originally enlisted, and therefore never expected that they'd be conscripted into the Shadow's armies or be bossed around by multiple Chosen.